The Dark Knight Discussion **CONTAINS SPOILERS**

[Beantown]

Re: The Dark Knight Discussion

Here's how I see it:

Spoiler

If the Brothers' Nolan are to take part in another Batman sequel, Dent is dead. If someone else takes over, it is their own "mess to clean up," so to speak, if they want to keep him alive.

Honestly, there weren't really any loose ends left to tie up at the end of this movie. Batman fled, a manhunt was ordered on him as Gordon crushed the light fixture, Fox resigned, Rachel has died, the Joker is in jail, and Gotham is safe as long as they believe it was The Dark Knight that committed those murders and not The White Night and that there is still hope that people, on the inside, are good (think back about what the entire boat scene was about, especially the prisoner's action). And with the very powerful ending words by Gordon, I think that the Nolan's executed these two movies perfectly where it doesn't require another movie.

I think what I'm trying to say is this movie isn't really trilogy-bound like other movies have been. In Spider-Man, MJ and Peter have just got going, Harry needs to exact his vengeance on Peter, and New York is still very much wanting Spider-Man. A third one was completely necessary, but from this point on, I don't believe another one of those movies are necessary, either.


However (and that is a big however)... if a third movie is to be made and if both Nolan brothers are to fully cooperate, we have to list out some new enemies. Well I think that if there was any subtlety to lingering clues left in this movie, recall when Wayne and Fox were discussing new fabric for his suit. When Wayne asked whether it would stop dogs, Fox said that it would at least stop a cat (or something along the lines of that). Could this leave room for Catwoman in Batman 3? I think that's a definite possibility.

Otherwise, I was very content with these two movies and, for the sake of leaving on a high note and risking franchise demoralization (especially if they re-cast The Joker, get a new director or screenplay writer, or include Robin or The Penguin), I certainly would not mind if they, for the time being, closed the book on the series. I'm sure some of you would disagree.

Spoiler

Couple of just quick things:

-If Robin is in it, it will be a new director, new Batman, new everything. Nolan and Bale have both went on record saying they don't want Robin in it, though that link posted earlier in the thread about Loeb's comments on how to make Robin work was a good idea.

-Nolan likes the graphic novels and draws a lot from them...as evidenced by the Joker in this movie, he and Batman's interactions were very graphic novel esque...so I honestly wouldn't be surprised if there was a "The Dark Knight Returns" type angle done with this, though not to the age extent that the graphic novel did.

-The "tied up" loose ends can be untied very realistically in Nolan's world. Dent can be alive, Fox could be brought back (the machine was destroyed and he said he was gone as long as the machine was there), Gordon has crushed the light fixture in the comics and graphic novels before only to realize that Gotham needed Batman, etc.

Think that's about it for now. And, for the record, I actually agree with everything you said...just opening up the other side of the debate. A third movie would take a LOT of work to reach this one, and will never pass it.

[Fresh Tendrils]

Re: The Dark Knight Discussion

I'm 100% positive there is a third film coming from the same crew.

[BTB]

Re: The Dark Knight Discussion

I just came back from seeing this, and it was freakin amazing. Great acting all the way around besides the annoying girl. Best superhero movie ever by miles.

[Misfit]

Re: The Dark Knight Discussion

Here's how I see it:

Spoiler

If the Brothers' Nolan are to take part in another Batman sequel, Dent is dead. If someone else takes over, it is their own "mess to clean up," so to speak, if they want to keep him alive. IMO the car crash is irrelevant. I personally know people that have survived worse crashes. And sometimes it's all about what is impacted on... well... on impact. There won't be a scientist popping up in a sequel explaining why he may have died in the fall but not in the crash, so you just have to leave it up to a coin toss.

Honestly, there weren't really any loose ends left to tie up at the end of this movie. Batman fled, a manhunt was ordered on him as Gordon crushed the light fixture, Fox resigned, Rachel has died, the Joker is in jail, and Gotham is safe as long as they believe it was The Dark Knight that committed those murders and not The White Night and that there is still hope that people, on the inside, are good (think back about what the entire boat scene was about, especially the prisoner's action). And with the very powerful ending words by Gordon, I think that the Nolan's executed these two movies perfectly where it doesn't require another movie.

I think what I'm trying to say is this movie isn't really trilogy-bound like other movies have been. In Spider-Man, MJ and Peter have just got going, Harry needs to exact his vengeance on Peter, and New York is still very much wanting Spider-Man. A third one was completely necessary, but from this point on, I don't believe another one of those movies are necessary, either.


However (and that is a big however)... if a third movie is to be made and if both Nolan brothers are to fully cooperate, we have to list out some new enemies. Well I think that if there was any subtlety to lingering clues left in this movie, recall when Wayne and Fox were discussing new fabric for his suit. When Wayne asked whether it would stop dogs, Fox said that it would at least stop a cat (or something along the lines of that). Could this leave room for Catwoman in Batman 3? I think that's a definite possibility.

Otherwise, I was very content with these two movies and, for the sake of leaving on a high note and risking franchise demoralization (especially if they re-cast The Joker, get a new director or screenplay writer, or include Robin or The Penguin), I certainly would not mind if they, for the time being, closed the book on the series. I'm sure some of you would disagree.

It is my impression that it has always been implied that this crew (Nolan, Bale, Oldman, etc.) were on board for a trilogy and that's it. And the end of TDK kind of goes along with this.

Spoiler

I don't think they want to close the book by having Batman be a cop-killing fugitive. While I don't think they ever intend to make him loved by all, it seems a little much to go that far. Bruce's conversation with Alfred after Rachel's death implies to me that this is the second act of a three act show. Batman must endure the escalation and accept that things will get worse before they get better (a central theme to the film) but that a better tomorrow is coming. I expect a third will be made and, while we won't get a happily ever after ending, we'll receive more closure (a more comfortable and confident Batman, a rebuilt Wayne Manor/Cave, a less corrupt police force) and then DC will lock Batman away until a new story needs to be told (or they need more money).

[Beantown]

Re: The Dark Knight Discussion

Im not sure if this really needs a spolier tag but I will include one anyways...

Spoiler

I thought Bale was signed on to do 3 movies in the Batman franchise already? If so then thats a guarantee that there will be another one. You sound like you wouldnt want the Penguin, is there a reason for it? I agree about Robin, Bale already said he would never work on the Batman franchise again if they tried to include Robin in them.

I'll keep it in spoilers, though I agree there isn't much about them that is spoiling anything...

Spoiler

I'm pretty sure the original deal was three movies. However, Nolan and Bale could change their mind based on the success, and tragedy, of the second one brought.

As far as the Penguin goes...he doesn't really fit, as is, into Nolan's world. The idea of making him an arms dealer or criminal mastermind could work, but they already have the mob characters for that. And having the Penguin go against the mob could work, as well, but we already had the Joker steal from them, and Two-Face and Catwoman make much more sense if they want to have the baddie go against the mob. Just my opinion.

[Beantown]

Re: The Dark Knight Discussion

I'm 100% positive there is a third film coming from the same crew.

Yup.

It is my impression that it has always been implied that this crew (Nolan, Bale, Oldman, etc.) were on board for a trilogy and that's it. And the end of TDK kind of goes along with this.

Spoiler

I don't think they want to close the book by having Batman be a cop-killing fugitive. While I don't think they ever intend to make him loved by all, it seems a little much to go that far. Bruce's conversation with Alfred after Rachel's death implies to me that this is the second act of a three act show. Batman must endure the escalation and accept that things will get worse before they get better (a central theme to the film) but that a better tomorrow is coming. I expect a third will be made and, while we won't get a happily ever after ending, we'll receive more closure (a more comfortable and confident Batman, a rebuilt Wayne Manor/Cave, a less corrupt police force) and then DC will lock Batman away until a new story needs to be told (or they need more money).

Really couldn't have said it better myself. That about sums up my thoughts on it in a much more...articulate way.

[Fresh Tendrils]

Re: The Dark Knight Discussion

Yup.



Really couldn't have said it better myself. That about sums up my thoughts on it in a much more...articulate way.

Agreed 100%. I don't agree with Blzer when he said there were no loose ends. I think there's still plenty to be done with Batman and Gotham.

[Blzer]

Re: The Dark Knight Discussion

Im not sure if this really needs a spolier tag but I will include one anyways...

Spoiler

I thought Bale was signed on to do 3 movies in the Batman franchise already? If so then thats a guarantee that there will be another one. You sound like you wouldnt want the Penguin, is there a reason for it? I agree about Robin, Bale already said he would never work on the Batman franchise again if they tried to include Robin in them.

Spoiler

Christopher Nolan already said that he doesn't want Penguin, and I see why he wouldn't as well. Remember, Nolan knows how to work with the insane and the corrupt in his any movies that he works in (at least that I have seen). I know those are two words we hear a lot in BB, but that's not exactly why I used them. I'm not a big fan of Batman comics nor do I read them, but I know that Penguin isn't a very insane character, and he's always "in it for the money."

Nolan can do so much better than that. It's like he needs a more complex character. That's why he's such a great director: he doesn't play his cards safe, he goes all in and takes risks, and he always seems to come out on top. It's like perfecting a standard dive over attempting a stellar dive... even if the execution is shaky, you still get style points. Nolan normally gets both style points and execution points.

Plus, remember that these movies have really had that sense of realism thus far (up until that stupid sonar gadget). If we were to have a crime boss that is genetically enhancing penguins and arming them to aid in ruling Gotham, that is beyond the realm of what Nolan is willing to do I'm sure.

I don't know about how these contracts legally work, especially in an event such as Ledger's death (was he signed on for two movies or just one?), but I'm sure that there are some clauses or options in it that allows him to get out if possible. I know that Bale really wants to work with Nolan and Nolan alone, and I'm sure that neither of them would phone in some less-than-stellar third installment. That's why I'm only saying they should have some time out right now. This movie just came out, and is, as far as I'm concerned, the greatest piece of film history I have ever seen. We need to give this one some time and see what it is that they can truly do for a Batman 3 if they ever come across discussing future plans. If they don't, you can see my point of view and perhaps see it as an understanding enough reason.

[Fresh Tendrils]

Re: The Dark Knight Discussion

Edit Blzer.

Regarding Ledger's contract, I'm pretty sure I remember him signing on for TDK with an option to do a third film. Technically speaking, nobody is signed on for a third film, but basically the entire crew has talked about the film as a story-arc across three films. WB will probably be negotiating with everybody next week once all the box office records are broken.

[Misfit]

Re: The Dark Knight Discussion

I wouldn't be worried about them feeling pressure to get right to work on a third. Batman Begins came out three years ago and any sequel to The Dark Knight is at least three years away (though I think we may be in for a longer wait). I agree to some extent with your take on the ending Blzer. It is a satisfying conclusion for the film and I didn't leave the theater anxious for a sequel (like I imagine most did after seeing the Joker card at the end of Batman Begins). I'm content to enjoy this film in the present and absorb all that I can from it. Perhaps by the time early plot details and casting has begun for the third I'll be ready to start focusing my energy on gearing up another sequel.

[Blzer]

Re: The Dark Knight Discussion

It is my impression that it has always been implied that this crew (Nolan, Bale, Oldman, etc.) were on board for a trilogy and that's it. And the end of TDK kind of goes along with this.

Spoiler

I don't think they want to close the book by having Batman be a cop-killing fugitive. While I don't think they ever intend to make him loved by all, it seems a little much to go that far. Bruce's conversation with Alfred after Rachel's death implies to me that this is the second act of a three act show. Batman must endure the escalation and accept that things will get worse before they get better (a central theme to the film) but that a better tomorrow is coming. I expect a third will be made and, while we won't get a happily ever after ending, we'll receive more closure (a more comfortable and confident Batman, a rebuilt Wayne Manor/Cave, a less corrupt police force) and then DC will lock Batman away until a new story needs to be told (or they need more money).

That certainly makes perfect sense. All I'm saying is that if they decide to finish now, I'm fine with it. I'm also just saying that we need a little bit of a break, seeing that this movie just came out and we really need to marvel (no pun intended) over what kind of dark, thrilling crime saga this movie really was before we start talking about a third Batman. For all we know, with time, preparation, and quality assurance being factors, we may not see another Batman movie for another three years, and I am perfectly okay with that.

I only hope they don't ruin what they have already made great, and people that know my love for peacekeeping a strong franchise is very morally important, and sometimes less is more. I can see where there are some loose ends that we can untie, but like I said... let's think of this as a standalone film at the moment (no predecessor, no successor), and let's worship the Nolan's for what they just did to us last midnight.

[3bitz]

Re: The Dark Knight Discussion

Bale is contracted to do 4 movies in the series while director Chris Nolan is contracted to do only 3, so said superherohype.com.

[Kashanova]

Re: The Dark Knight Discussion

Spoiler

My thought is that Two Face is still alive, and that the third movie will have the riddler, which i totally think nolan can nail.

[Sandman42]

Re: The Dark Knight Discussion

Amazing. I already ready want to go back and watch it again. Three top notch acting performances from Ledger, Eckhart, and Bale. Even though the movie was 2:40 minutes long it didn't feel slow at all, just constant great scene after great scene.

Spoiler

I'm with you Blzer, on thinking that the bombs on the boats were reversed also. It makes sense after he switched the locations of Dent and Dawes.

[Thrasha]

Re: The Dark Knight Discussion

Amazing. I already ready want to go back and watch it again. Three top notch acting performances from Ledger, Eckhart, and Bale. Even though the movie was 2:40 minutes long it didn't feel slow at all, just constant great scene after great scene.

Spoiler

I'm with you Blzer, on thinking that the bombs on the boats were reversed also. It makes sense after he switched the locations of Dent and Dawes.

Spoiler

I thought about the bombs being reversed while that final scene was playing out. I figured one boat would pull the trigger and it would really show the downfall of morality throughout Gotham

I need to see the movie again to get a concrete definite opinion on it, and where I place it with all the other great comic book/movies period.

But for some people to say that this is the greatest cinematic experience they've ever had the joy of being apart is a bit.... over the top.

I saw the movie at the midnight showing last night and have waited a little bit for it to soak in before I posted any comments on it. I'm still pretty much where I was at when I walked out of the theater.

The first thing I said to my buddy was, Heath Ledger was a genius. But about the whole movie, I didn't know. I know I liked it... But that's all I can say about it.

I had to pee so badly throughout the final hour but wouldn't leave my seat. I thought my bladder would burst, but it kept me tuned in the entire time. I didn't even consider leaving my seat, the only thought I had was if the people next to me would notice if I used my empty soda cup to help me out... (JK...)

I definitely would have preferred the ending as far as the Joker's character to be wrapped up a little better than it was. It left me hanging.

Spoiler

pun intended

I do think my concentration was for sh*t when the final scene was up and Gordon was giving his speech. I tried to concentrate but at that point I really thought I was going to piss my pants.

Spoiler

I would have enjoyed a little bit more of the Joker and Batman dueling, especially once BM flipped the 18 wheeler with his bike and they were out in the middle of the street. I felt that scene was finished prematurely.

The movie was 2 and a half hours, another 20 minutes worth of viewing I think could have actually helped it out. Shockingly