U.S. Dead Last in Healthcare ranking

[Stumbleweed]

Re: U.S. Dead Last in Healthcare ranking

Well maybe if we had a more robust rehabilitation and treatment system that actually helped people stop drinking or using drugs rather than locking them up where their problems only increase (especially when they're freed after years of living within a different set of rules in prison), then there would be less people drinking/drugging overall and we'd be a healthier country..?

There are better ways to handle drug addiction than locking people up. Most nations in Europe now realize that fact and have taken steps to decrease the negative impact of global drug prohibition on their populace. The prison-industrial complex plays a big part in keeping things the way they are, as it's an extremely large industry that is generally awarded a glut of government contracts (and we all know how corporations like to take advantage of government contracts) -- they have a vested interest in getting as many people as possible locked up to keep their industry a growing one... hence minimum sentence legislation, etc.

[jmood88]

Re: U.S. Dead Last in Healthcare ranking

Ummm, do you realize how many deaths are caused by drunk drivers. Do you know the astronomical costs associated with alcohol related illnesses and dependencies. Saying having alcohol legal is freeing up alot of money to use elsewhere is misleading.

I could care less if a relative few people get shot in a back alley feuding over an illegal substance.

I was talking about drugs anyway. I would like to see a comparison in the money spent on whatever the state spends on alcohol related things and the money spent on hiring police to enforce drug laws, the cost of keeping prisoners in jail on drug related offenses, the money spent investigating murders do to violent drug gangs etc etc. Less money would be spent if this ridiculous policing was stopped.

[Cebby]

Re: U.S. Dead Last in Healthcare ranking

Because their governments are sensible about this issue and not completely hog-tied by their allegiances to the pharmaceutical giants... and therefore allow reasonably-priced alternatives to be provided...

Actually, the reason drugs are cheaper in third world countries is because they spend roughly $5 on Research & Development. All they do is buy a pack of pills and chemically analyze them. Pfizer and the other pharm companies spend millions upon millions on R&D, and thus have to recoup them by selling products. But then again, I'm sure that if the US companies fail, Cuba and Indian drug marketers will pick up the slack with all of their amazing advances in health care...

[dkgojackets]

Re: U.S. Dead Last in Healthcare ranking

There are better ways to handle drug addiction than locking people up.

I agree with that, but making the problem drugs legal and widely available isn't one of them.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: U.S. Dead Last in Healthcare ranking

Again, if we had different national priorities, those companies would not be necessary because the money spent going to support our military expansion and everything else (thrown away in no-bid contracts, etc.) could be used to subsidize research at non-profit health research organizations such as universities and government agencies rather than being given to profit-motivated corporations. Maybe it's just me, but I think taking care of our own citizens is more important than expanding our military presence abroad... And I also am more likely to trust doctors, researchers, etc. that are being paid not by the company who profits the most from the drug being passed through testing and sold to as many prople as possible, but by the government or another non-profit source. Better research, less "mistake" drugs, less cost overall...

[dkgojackets]

Re: U.S. Dead Last in Healthcare ranking

Ummm, do you realize how many deaths are caused by drunk drivers. Do you know the astronomical costs associated with alcohol related illnesses and dependencies. Saying having alcohol legal is freeing up alot of money to use elsewhere is misleading.

I could care less if a relative few people get shot in a back alley feuding over an illegal substance.

Exactly. If people are involved in illegal trade I don't care if they get shot, I really don't care at all about them.

I wonder if these people will like it when others start getting killed because someone high on drugs drives the wrong way on the interstate, or when someone completely stoned gets behind the wheel.

[Cebby]

Re: U.S. Dead Last in Healthcare ranking

Again, if we had different national priorities, those companies would not be necessary because the money spent going to support our military expansion and everything else (thrown away in no-bid contracts, etc.) could be used to subsidize research at non-profit health research organizations such as universities and government agencies rather than being given to profit-motivated corporations.

We'd already be doing that if it worked. Corporations will pay more than the government 100% of the time. We've seen it with doctors, lawyers, police, and every other profession with the exception of teachers.

[jmood88]

Re: U.S. Dead Last in Healthcare ranking

I agree with that, but making the problem drugs legal and widely available isn't one of them.

Making them illegal sure has made things better.

[Cebby]

Re: U.S. Dead Last in Healthcare ranking

I wonder if these people will like it when others start getting killed because someone high on drugs drives the wrong way on the interstate, or when someone completely stoned gets behind the wheel.

Outside of dissociative drugs (in which you'd have too much trouble to physically turn a car on), alcohol impairs coordination more than any drug.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: U.S. Dead Last in Healthcare ranking

I agree with that, but making the problem drugs legal and widely available isn't one of them.

Yes, which is why I suggested spending more money on treatment programs rather than retributive justice. And one of the ways to do that would be to eliminate the wastefullness of locking up non-violent drug users, opting instead for treatment options that are more likely to reduce the rate of recidivism. Countries who have switched to a health-based system (treating addicts and addiction as a medical problem rather than a criminal one) have seen decreases in drug use almost across-the-board. The Netherlands (as the most famous example of "legalization" despite the system being a system of "tolerance") has lower overall drug use rates than the US despite its permissive system (which includes tolerating the consumption of marijuana/mushrooms, needle distribution programs, etc.).

[jmood88]

Re: U.S. Dead Last in Healthcare ranking

Exactly. If people are involved in illegal trade I don't care if they get shot, I really don't care at all about them.

Except that that violence ends up affecting people outside of the drug trade.

I wonder if these people will like it when others start getting killed because someone high on drugs drives the wrong way on the interstate, or when someone completely stoned gets behind the wheel.

First of all, you act like that already doesn't happen and that it would all of a sudden be a huge problem. Second of all, I would much rather have a few people drive high than have entire neighborhoods and groups of people get ruined because of drug gangs. What good has come from having drugs illegal?

[Cebby]

Re: U.S. Dead Last in Healthcare ranking

The Netherlands (as the most famous example of "legalization" despite the system being a system of "tolerance") has lower overall drug use rates than the US despite its permissive system (which includes tolerating the consumption of marijuana/mushrooms, needle distribution programs, etc.).

The United State's drug problem has nothing to do with marijuana or mushrooms; it's hard, heron, and meth.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: U.S. Dead Last in Healthcare ranking

The United State's drug problem has nothing to do with marijuana or mushrooms; it's hard, heron, and meth.

Yet marijuana offenders are locked up as if there was no difference...

And in either case, that's irrelevant because the very same hard drugs exist and are done at a lesser rate in other industrialized countries that focus on treatment and mitigation as opposed to punitive punishment. I don't think that's a coincidence.

EDIT: Anyway, good discussion guys -- I'm leaving work and may continue this at home or tomorrow. And jmood is on-point -- it's not like a bunch of people are going to start doing heroin just because they won't go to jail for it.

[Cebby]

Re: U.S. Dead Last in Healthcare ranking

Yet marijuana offenders are locked up as if there was no difference...

And in either case, that's irrelevant because the very same hard drugs exist and are done at a lesser rate in other industrialized countries that focus on treatment and mitigation as opposed to punitive punishment. I don't think that's a coincidence.

1. I don't know how familiar you are with drugs, but marijuana is not considered the same as meth, crack, or heroin. Not even a little bit.

2. The very same drugs are done at a lesser rate because they're far less available. Cocaine is about double the price as it is over here, and crack and meth are non-existent.

[Computalover]

Re: U.S. Dead Last in Healthcare ranking

drugs should be decrimminalized, and treatment provided for those who want it. Like gov. jesse ventura said, you cannot legislate stupidity. Booze kills more innocent folks than hard drugs, and it is taxed by the gov. hell better still in some states WV, NC, etc the government OWNS liquor stores!!

Healthcare, should be health dont care..

The US finances social medicine for other countries. Perscription drugs here finances them in regulated countries. we provide social medicine for social countries on the backs of american citizens.

we are the only First world country that people have to choose between treatment and food. treatment and electric, treatment and comforts of life. get well and go broke, or die with a roof over your head! thats insane

and the treatment you get based on your insurance. I went to the hospital with a severe infection. the emergency room was packed. I expected to stay there all night.. i was in and out within 3 hours. why.. because I have BC/BS PPO.. the highest cost insurance my job offers. I got the statement from them, i was charged for test they did not do.

I was told by my cousin who works for BC/BS that hospitals spread the costs of non paying patients to insured ones, sometimes putting their tests on my bill. robbing peter to pay paul thing..

only in america.