Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

[TMagic]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

I've never read the books so someone can correct me if I'm wrong... I think the main difference between wights and White Walkers is that wights are basically like mindless zombies and just attack, attack, attack. Whereas, White Walkers can at least do things like block and dodge when they're fighting.

We haven't see the White Walkers fight very much at all. In Hardhome, the one Jon fought did give him a little trouble at first and iirc killed a top Wildling fighter fairly easily but Jon did end up killing him pretty quickly once they fought straight up. I don't think that there's anything to show that the WW's are anything more than average swordsman, but I still believe that they were stronger than wights. Maybe that's all in my mind just because they looked cool.

Oh yeah. For sure they are better "fighters" than the wights.

But I just didn't remember seeing anything that has given any indication that they are on the same level or better than these super elite characters we have on the show. If anything, we've been given hints that they are anything but.

One line that stuck with me was when Tormund was talking with the group that went beyond the wall. He said something along the lines of, "I havent survived because I'm smart. I've survived because I'm a great fighter." And that's how I kind of have viewed all the characters that have made it this far, in this world. They are top notch. The WW have not shown to be on their level in any way that I can remember.

Well, really it's a A Song of Ice and Fire. Game of Thrones, the title of the first book, just has sexier mass appeal, but it focused on the events of the first book and the beginning of the turmoil after Robert Baratheon's death. You don't name a TV show A Song of Ice and Fire.

There are many well-written reasons out there as to why the WW are the main conflict. We'll get our answer when (if) the book series ends.

But this isn't the book. This is the TV show.

[ehh]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

But this isn't the book. This is the TV show.

Which is part of the problem. The show stayed pretty darn true to the books and then they passed the source material and whooooop, the show took one hell of a left turn that wasn't fulfilling to many fans. It all goes back to the basics of storytelling. Both the books and the show made the same promises early on.

[Hiro1]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

Which is part of the problem. The show stayed pretty darn true to the books and then they passed the source material and whooooop, the show took one hell of a left turn that wasn't fulfilling to many fans. It all goes back to the basics of storytelling. Both the books and the show made the same promises early on.

The show has also removed a lot of magic and fantasy elements that exist in the books.(prob to make more palatable to the mainstream) Mainly why a lot of fans are so lost right now. Many of us have no idea what set of rules we’re playing with.


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[TMagic]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

Which is part of the problem. The show stayed pretty darn true to the books and then they passed the source material and whooooop, the show took one hell of a left turn that wasn't fulfilling to many fans. It all goes back to the basics of storytelling. Both the books and the show made the same promises early on.

I can see that coming from someone who read the books. From I pure show watchers standpoint, imo, they have been a danger woven within the narrative. But theyve never struck me as the biggest part of the show.

I think they handled it well within the scope of the show. Any more episodes dedicated to them would have amounted to more of a Walking Dead vibe than Game of Thrones.

I don't know what else they could have done with them at this point. They've been trying to figure how to handle them throughout the entire show. They've had their fights and run ins with them. And it culminated in a movie length battle.

What else is there to this story? Say they win the battle of Winterfell. The heros have to retreat and figure out what to do again in the next fight with them? Troops are rallied, more rah rah, and more talk of how important it is for them to win. Like, where does that end and how do you keep that interesting until you finally decide to kill them off? Lol

[CMH]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

I think the show would have avoided many of these rushed elements if the creators went with the 10-episode season in 7 and 8 like they did with the first six.


From what I've read, HBO was not the reason the episodes were cut back. I feel like a lot of complaints are based on two things: The Great War and the pacing of the show these last 9 or so episodes.


To me, Benioff and Weiss are tired of the material. I don't blame them. It's been 10 years.

[ehh]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

I can see that coming from someone who read the books. From I pure show watchers standpoint, imo, they have been a danger woven within the narrative. But theyve never struck me as the biggest part of the show.

The WW are in the show more than they're in the books, granted the books are pretty far behind at this point.

I think there's also confusion as to what I'm trying to say. I'm not saying the show is about the WW or that they're the most important piece. The show and books are about Jon and Dany, that's pretty clear and GRRM has straight up said so. However, there is a reason why the very first scene in the series introduces us to the White Walkers and the fact that they're closer to the Wall than they've been in years. How can the show be about the Iron Throne if there's no one alive to sit on it? It's a bigger problem than the usual political shenanigans. The biggest problem should be solved last, or at least in sync with other resolutions.

I don't know what else they could have done with them at this point. They've been trying to figure how to handle them throughout the entire show. They've had their fights and run ins with them. And it culminated in a movie length battle.

What else is there to this story? Say they win the battle of Winterfell. The heros have to retreat and figure out what to do again in the next fight with them? Troops are rallied, more rah rah, and more talk of how important it is for them to win. Like, where does that end and how do you keep that interesting until you finally decide to kill them off? Lol

The run-ins were all north of the wall though. The threat to the realm wasn't real until the end of last season when they burst through the wall.

It ends when humans put aside their human-to-human conflict to fight for the survival of the species, which we got but not on the scale that most fans felt was realistic; they were minor compared to what potentially awaited in Kings Landing. How for years the scenes in the north have been building up to these strange human alliances: from the Night's Watch accepting wildlings all the way up to the Starks accepting Jamie two episodes ago, because they needed all the help they could get to try to save the realm.

I would not be surprised if the books finish with essentially everyone in the Seven Kingdoms dead or in Kings Landing and that the Army of the Dead makes it that far south. One last stand of mankind vs the dead, then the Iron Throne is resolved or perhaps the final battle with the dead also decides who sits on the Iron Throne. I think part of the issue is that that'd be difficult to pull off on TV. An epic battle with Kings Landing buried in snow.

Back to the split reactions from the fan base, fans who don't think the WW were the main conflict are fine with how things played out. For most of nine years, the WW were just a distraction north of the wall that were a problem for the Night's Watch and a few other characters. They were never the threat we were made to believe, despite all the screen and plot time they received. We've been told that the only thing protecting the realm is a huge magic wall of ice. If they ever made it south of the wall, the realm is ****ed. Instead, they got south of the wall and lost their first battle to our favorite feisty band of survivors. The end.

On the other end, the actual drama around the Iron Throne has been non-existent for a long time. Cersei has controlled it since S1E5 or whenever Robert died. Whether it's her, Joffery, or Tommen, she has been the one in control. We had the stupid storyline with the High Sparrow that got Cersei out for a while but Tommen/House Lannister was still ruling. Since the War of the Five Kings and Battle of the Black Water in S2, we've had no real movement to take the Iron Throne. It's been even less relevant than the White Walkers.

• Jon was dealing with the dead.
• Stannis broods about Dragonstone and does some traveling before winding up at the Wall.
• Jamie was dealing with his hellish character transformation unrelated to the Iron Throne.
• Dany was trying to free slaves, build an army, and bore us to death; at least all in the name of eventually retaking the Iron Throne, but it's not like it was imminent and she was half a world away the entire time.
• Tryion flees for his own safety but he was never interested in taking the throne.
• Sansa is trying to get her freedom.
• Arya was trying to get her freedom, get home, and get revenge.
• Cersei deals with some relatively minor issues related to losing the throne but it's never a real threat to leave the Lannister's control.

Anyway, the end of the White Walkers is different from other twists and harsh realities of GOT through the years, where it's not some fantasy/fairytale where the good guy gets saved at the last minute. Actions always had consequences. Real consequences, true consequences. From Ned to Robb to Stannis, etc. There was always truth.

[TMagic]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

Spoiler

The WW are in the show more than they're in the books, granted the books are pretty far behind at this point.

I think there's also confusion as to what I'm trying to say. I'm not saying the show is about the WW or that they're the most important piece. The show and books are about Jon and Dany, that's pretty clear and GRRM has straight up said so. However, there is a reason why the very first scene in the series introduces us to the White Walkers and the fact that they're closer to the Wall than they've been in years. How can the show be about the Iron Throne if there's no one alive to sit on it? It's a bigger problem than the usual political shenanigans. The biggest problem should be solved last, or at least in sync with other resolutions.



The run-ins were all north of the wall though. The threat to the realm wasn't real until the end of last season when they burst through the wall.

It ends when humans put aside their human-to-human conflict to fight for the survival of the species, which we got but not on the scale that most fans felt was realistic; they were minor compared to what potentially awaited in Kings Landing. How for years the scenes in the north have been building up to these strange human alliances: from the Night's Watch accepting wildlings all the way up to the Starks accepting Jamie two episodes ago, because they needed all the help they could get to try to save the realm.

I would not be surprised if the books finish with essentially everyone in the Seven Kingdoms dead or in Kings Landing and that the Army of the Dead makes it that far south. One last stand of mankind vs the dead, then the Iron Throne is resolved or perhaps the final battle with the dead also decides who sits on the Iron Throne. I think part of the issue is that that'd be difficult to pull off on TV. An epic battle with Kings Landing buried in snow.

Back to the split reactions from the fan base, fans who don't think the WW were the main conflict are fine with how things played out. For most of nine years, the WW were just a distraction north of the wall that were a problem for the Night's Watch and a few other characters. They were never the threat we were made to believe, despite all the screen and plot time they received. We've been told that the only thing protecting the realm is a huge magic wall of ice. If they ever made it south of the wall, the realm is ****ed. Instead, they got south of the wall and lost their first battle to our favorite feisty band of survivors. The end.

On the other end, the actual drama around the Iron Throne has been non-existent for a long time. Cersei has controlled it since S1E5 or whenever Robert died. Whether it's her, Joffery, or Tommen, she has been the one in control. We had the stupid storyline with the High Sparrow that got Cersei out for a while but Tommen/House Lannister was still ruling. Since the War of the Five Kings and Battle of the Black Water in S2, we've had no real movement to take the Iron Throne. It's been even less relevant than the White Walkers.

• Jon was dealing with the dead.
• Stannis broods about Dragonstone and does some traveling before winding up at the Wall.
• Jamie was dealing with his hellish character transformation unrelated to the Iron Throne.
• Dany was trying to free slaves, build an army, and bore us to death; at least all in the name of eventually retaking the Iron Throne, but it's not like it was imminent and she was half a world away the entire time.
• Tryion flees for his own safety but he was never interested in taking the throne.
• Sansa is trying to get her freedom.
• Arya was trying to get her freedom, get home, and get revenge.
• Cersei deals with some relatively minor issues related to losing the throne but it's never a real threat to leave the Lannister's control.

Anyway, the end of the White Walkers is different from other twists and harsh realities of GOT through the years, where it's not some fantasy/fairytale where the good guy gets saved at the last minute. Actions always had consequences. Real consequences, true consequences. From Ned to Robb to Stannis, etc. There was always truth.

Great points all around. I guess the show could be called "Winterfell" just the same. Lol

I actually agree with a lot of what you said. Biggest difference between you and I, as you alluded to, is simply that it doesn't bother me and I never had an expectation of where they were going. Just as easily as one can say, "Theyve been building it up for so long. They should have saved the resolution to end the series!" one could say "They've been building this up for so long. Let's get to it already!"

If this episode happened in episode 5 or 6 would it have been as much of a disappointment to you? Not necessarily EXACTLY as it went down. But maybe say one epic, climatic battle in Kingslanding where the heros again won?

I guess I don't see it as much of a difference. Especially considering that they saved it all the way until the very last season and we don't even know what they have in store for us in the next three episodes. There's the very real possibility that whatever happens next could completely overshadow episode three. That episode three was just the appetizer to the main course.

Just the fact that this battle happened this "early" makes me feel like they have something up their sleeve. [emoji848]

[ehh]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

If this episode happened in episode 5 or 6 would it have been as much of a disappointment to you? Not necessarily EXACTLY as it went down. But maybe say one epic, climatic battle in Kingslanding where the heros again won?

I would be disappointed if the Army of the Dead lost their first battle south of the wall regardless of when it happened unless it was a lone battle against all remaining human forces, basically the highest the stakes could possibly be.

I don't have a huge problem with the episode--besides the lame killing of the NK, which doesn't jive with me--despite me writing a novel's worth of commentary on it. I'm not up in arms over it nor did I hate it, I just think it could have been done a lot better and will ultimately be much less satisfying than how GRRM wraps things up.

You are right about waiting to see what happens in the final three episodes. Maybe the showrunners will pull it off.

[johnnyg713]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

I feel GoT is known for having complex characters. Jamie Lannister is a perfect example. People hated him and now he's arguably a fan favorite. The "two sides of the coin" argument can be said for almost any character.

I think the biggest let-down to me is the fact that the night king was built up so much to be the biggest villain of them all but ended up being the most shallow character on the show. Say what you want about him being purely evil or his motives were previously established. GoT is known for complex characters and story. He was betrayed as much more than someone just wanting to kill everything. A king usually has a purpose wether he's alive, dead, etc. It was a character that had human traits - some could argue even god-like.

Many people would have been satisfied if there was some sort of dialogue between him and Bran before his death. IMO that's all I wanted. To get a little more human element out of a character that leading up until his final seconds was betrayed as such. It seems way out of place to have such a character called the night king to have such an anticlimactic story, especially in such a series.

My prediction is that the night king was just a prop all along. A common enemy created by the 3 eyed raven to unite the main characters to defeat Cersi and rule the Kingdom in peace. That would make sense to me.

[Cardot]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

Many people would have been satisfied if there was some sort of dialogue between him and Bran before his death. IMO that's all I wanted. To get a little more human element out of a character

What is he going to say? Part of his mojo is that he doesn't speak. If he decides to have a stop and chat with Bran, I think it is just as anti-climactic. Does Bran then try to connect with his human side to turn him good?

[johnnyg713]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

What is he going to say? Part of his mojo is that he doesn't speak. If he decides to have a stop and chat with Bran, I think it is just as anti-climactic. Does Bran then try to connect with his human side to turn him good?

Why have him smile when Cersi tried to burn him? Why have him stare at Jon with such intrigue at Hardhome? I don't get why he shows emotion and has human qualities if there wasn't a more higher order of thinking on his part. I'm just throwing out a suggestion of some sort of interaction to show a higher purpose that felt necessary.

[tdawg3782]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

Why have him smile when Cersi tried to burn him? Why have him stare at Jon with such intrigue at Hardhome? I don't get why he shows emotion and has human qualities if there wasn't a more higher order of thinking on his part. I'm just throwing out a suggestion of some sort of interaction to show a higher purpose that felt necessary.

You could say though that one common theme of GoT is characters that we thought had a higher purpose (Ned, Robb, etc) really just didn't and went out in a very anticlimactic way in the grand scheme of things. To me this fits in with what GoT is. Just this time it happened to a "bad guy" as oppose to a "good guy". It's all relative though. It really comes down to what we wanted to happen as individuals to determine if we are happy it disappointed with the episode. I don't think it really affects anybody's hype level for the rest of the season.

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[Cardot]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

Well I think that is the problem with the NK & WW crew. They are scary, but since they don't talk, nor seem to "think" too much (beyond swarming the living), they aren't all that interesting....and once the mystery is gone, there just isn't much left. There were some great episodes that I really enjoyed (Hardhome, Battle on the Lake, Long Night etc), but at this point I feel I have been there and done that with the Army of the Dead battles.

I was never expecting a surprise reveal like the NK is actually Jon or Bran. I know some people were, so I can understand their disappointment.

[Rocky]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

I feel GoT is known for having complex characters. Jamie Lannister is a perfect example. People hated him and now he's arguably a fan favorite. The "two sides of the coin" argument can be said for almost any character.

I think the biggest let-down to me is the fact that the night king was built up so much to be the biggest villain of them all but ended up being the most shallow character on the show. Say what you want about him being purely evil or his motives were previously established. GoT is known for complex characters and story. He was betrayed as much more than someone just wanting to kill everything. A king usually has a purpose wether he's alive, dead, etc. It was a character that had human traits - some could argue even god-like.

I think this is really the crux of what people who didnt care for Winterfell are saying. Someone brought up TWD and I brought it up as well. I think ironically, GoT's AotD ended up being the same as TWD's Walkers which is disappointing. In TWD, Walkers little more than a prop for character development and human/human conflict. I think many got the same feeling for the AotD.

[ehh]

Re: Game of Thrones: Season 8 (Final season)

You could say though that one common theme of GoT is characters that we thought had a higher purpose (Ned, Robb, etc) really just didn't and went out in a very anticlimactic way in the grand scheme of things.

In a very broad sense, yes, but they're still different; Ned was around for one season, Robb for most of three. Those were classic GRRM subversion characters: you get Ned, who's set up as your typical fantasy hero. But he makes some stupid decisions and doesn't last long. You get Robb, another cliche, who's shaping up to avenge his murdered father and right everything in the Seven Kingdoms and win the throne. But he makes some stupid decisions and pays with his life. Both of their deaths made sense and had massive impacts on the story but both were small arcs within the entire story. They were a flash in the pan in the game of thrones.

The White Walkers, not specifically the Night King though, have been around since the first episode all the way to now. They were more important than Robb or Ned or any other subverted character. They were the boogieman hovering over the realm for all but three episodes of the series. I don't see GRRM subverting the "mythical, unstoppable, evil force" trope to this extent, like some M. Night Shyamalan stuff. It's just too unsatisfying. It's one thing to do that in a two-hour movie, it's something else to do that in an eight-season television series.