"The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

[callmetaternuts]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

I still maintain that by doing what he did, horrible, unspeakable things, he waived the right to be treated as one of "us", as a functioning member of society. The rule book shouldnt apply here. He ended lives and marred another life. He tortured a poor, helpless, innocent kid for days or weeks and then shot him in front of his sister. He deserves anything and everything coming at him. Im not a violent person, and dont wish harm on anyone, but this is a different circumstance. Why should he get protective custody? He asked for the abuse when he commited those acts. Why should he get a relatively painless death when he, under his own free will took the childhood of two kids and tortured them with no regards? No way in hell does he deserve to see his existence extinguished in a dignified and peaceful manner. Not after what he did.....

[Bornindamecca]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

Born...mecca......

I'd like to say I respect your opinion. I respect a man who thinks his position & doesn't just ramble off words w/no direction. So please don't think I say the following in order to insult you personally.

But what you've said is liberal mumbo jumbo.

You want to talk about losing our humanity, but you have not fully comprehended what makes up man. We have the capacity to love. We have the potential to hate. That seperates us from the animals.


Mankind is not so. We are creatures of free will. We have conscience. Morality. Our decisions are answerable to the community. No matter what culture or society you visit, there is a common sense of what is normal & what is beyond indecent that is shared by us all. Whether you think that was put there by God or evolved over eons of time. And when someone abuses that free will to put the most heinous atrocities upon his innocent fellow man, that desire for justice yearns to be satisfied.

THAT IS HUMANITY.

To ask for retribution, to ask for what was mercilessly bestowed on that young boy be repaid in kind, is what puts us above all other life forms on this planet.

I I'll be doggone if another human being could tell me I was losing my humanity because I'd desire revenge dispensed from my hands.

You're misinterpreting just a bit.

I never doubted, or even condemned the base instincts that come when we are wounded. But you hit the nail on the head in a sense:

We are separated from animals by our ability to do what is best despite our worse instincts. Our instincts and reactions do not control us. Our free will does.

When we are wounded, and we feel the need to react in opposition to the moral code we maintain during times of joy, that is not freedom. That's a natural symptom of pain.

The best example of humanity is when we do what is best for our personal and communal survival in spite of our adversities. If we sought some revenge based idea of justice every time a member of humanity failed us, our society would disintegrate rapidly.


I'm not saying we should reform the guy, but all of that energy wasted on wanting to see him tortured should be replaced with support for that family.

[P2K]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

You're misinterpreting just a bit.

I never doubted, or even condemned the base instincts that come when we are wounded. But you hit the nail on the head in a sense:

We are separated from animals by our ability to do what is best despite our worse instincts. Our instincts and reactions do not control us. Our free will does.

When we are wounded, and we feel the need to react in opposition to the moral code we maintain during times of joy, that is not freedom. That's a natural symptom of pain.

The best example of humanity is when we do what is best for our personal and communal survival in spite of our adversities. If we sought some revenge based idea of justice every time a member of humanity failed us, our society would disintegrate rapidly.


I'm not saying we should reform the guy, but all of that energy wasted on wanting to see him tortured should be replaced with support for that family.

And we can't do both?

And I understand not torturing and obliterating the drug dealer on the corner or Joe Schmoe that kills someone in a hit and run.

But guys like this need to feel like his victims did. Locking him up for the rest of his life isn't going to do anything. He'll probably enjoy it and feel he got off. Then other whack job ****-ups will feel even more energized to do their thing.

I don't believe in quick, lighting speed death for these fools. And I don't believe in "He will be handled with in the afterlife". How the hell would anyone know that?

No, these goofs need their souls twisted to give them the slightest hint that what they did was wrong. Otherwise, they will continue to feel justified.

Many will argue that and I understand. Just my opinion.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

And we can't do both?

Usually, no. The howling mob that throws tomatoes at the town murder usually disperses once all of the rotten fruit is thrown. They are often nowhere to be found when it's time to support the offended family.

But guys like this need to feel like his victims did.

What does that do?

And I don't believe in "He will be handled with in the afterlife". How the hell would anyone know that?

I never brought up any afterlife. I'm much more concerned with the humans who are still alive.

Otherwise, they will continue to feel justified.

Dead men don't feel anything. Acknowledge the death penalty as the last resort of a failed moment in humanity, and get on with the healing. In 35 years, at any point in time, we can choose to stop raising murderers. It's very hard to do that when you condone torture at the same time. It's too morally paradoxical. The weak mind that needs revenge is not strong enough for enlightenment and overall communal survival.

[devilsjaw]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

I never brought up any afterlife. I'm much more concerned with the humans who are still alive.

This ****er isn't human. That's the difference. If this was my children he did this too, I guarantee he wouldn't make it out of that courtroom alive. If anyone thinks that is wrong, well **** them. IMO, no amount of psychiatric aid will help a pedophile. It's been proven one too many times when they are released. They should all face the death penalty. And again, if anyone thinks that's wrong, well **** them.

[crques]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

I wish they would find a pack of wolves to rip this piece of **** apart...

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/08/21/....ap/index.html

What a sick ****er!!! I hope he dies a violent and painful death somehow.

[Cebby]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

In 35 years, at any point in time, we can choose to stop raising murderers.

No you can't.

The only society that would have a chance at coming close to minimizing murders would be a completely authoritarian big brother state.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

The death penalty is ridiculous, but most people in America still support it. I don't personally feel comfortable with granting the justice system the power to decide life and death when it's been shown to be wrong in many instances.

Suspending someone's rights and locking them up in prison is one thing, killing them outright is another... I don't trust the government/justice system enough to support that, even in these extreme cases where rehabilitation would likely be ineffective.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

No you can't.

The only society that would have a chance at coming close to minimizing murders would be a completely authoritarian big brother state.

I dismiss this statement until you prove it. On a message board, there is a certain leeway for making broad unqualified statements, but in this case I'm calling your card and asking you to prove it.

Let's see some international murder rates compared against the educational and political systems of those respective countries. I understand if you don't want to do that research, but a little work is required to give weight to what you just said.

[Cebby]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

I dismiss this statement until you prove it.

There has never been a country with no murders. That alone pretty much proves it.

Thinking that education will stop people from doing what they want is completely asinine. If that was the case, the US wouldn't be far and away the leading consumer of cocaine, heroin, ecstasy, and meth. We were all educated that they're bad for you, but we as a country have accepted that we're willing to endure the negative consequences for the highs of the drugs. You can't stop raising murderers. I knew a pastor who had several daughters, one of which was a complete whore, the other (who was much better looking) didn't even hold boys' hands. I can't imagine they were raised much differently.

[baumy300]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

There has never been a country with no murders. That alone pretty much proves it.

Thinking that education will stop people from doing what they want is completely asinine. If that was the case, the US wouldn't be far and away the leading consumer of cocaine, heroin, ecstasy, and meth.

Exactly. Wasn't Ted Bundy a lawyer? I would say he was pretty well educated.

People are going to kill, steal, smoke, drink, etc... regardless of what they're taught. A select few may be detoured by a few words here and there, but the psychopaths like this guy are going to do it no matter what.

Don't even say religion would be a deterrent as well. This freak was singing bible songs while torturing. You would think someone of that religious stature would at least have the fear of God in him, but no.

Certain people are going to kill. End of story. Nothing you can do about it.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

There has never been a country with no murders. That alone pretty much proves it.

Thinking that education will stop people from doing what they want is completely asinine. If that was the case, the US wouldn't be far and away the leading consumer of cocaine, heroin, ecstasy, and meth.

a) you said minimizing murders, not eliminating them completely
b) our education system is terrible in many places
c) I'm also talking about moral, civic, philosophical and communal education. Again, areas where our education is deficient.

If you don't want to do the work, just say so. However, if you do want to go out and do a little reading, you'll find some interesting information regarding societies, murder rates, and cultures in our world. This information is a great starting point for moving towards a better world than the one that has been built so far. But this is a far cry from the cathartic call for blood, so I understand how it's not as interesting. It's a common sentiment.

Certain people are going to kill. End of story. Nothing you can do about it.

Most violent behaviors are learned. There is plenty of proof of that. If it's learned, who is teaching? That's what we have to fix. At that point, we'll earn the right to hypothesize about the much more rare "born evil" theory.

[vinny]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

In 35 years, at any point in time, we can choose to stop raising murderers.

Speaking of broad unqualified statements.

I dismiss this statement until you prove it. On a message board, there is a certain leeway for making broad unqualified statements, but in this case I'm calling your card and asking you to prove it.

Let me do the same. Prove to me how we can stop raising murderers. Not just the "do some reading" line. I want you to show what evidence and numbers you have to make this statement.

[baumy300]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

Most violent behaviors are learned. There is plenty of proof of that. If it's learned, who is teaching? That's what we have to fix. At that point, we'll earn the right to hypothesize about the much more rare "born evil" theory.

Through where, GTA IV?

Look man, I understand what you're trying to get across in this thread, but let's be realistic here: Until you start providing me with some well researched facts that everyone is basically born "good" and then either remains that way or becomes evil, I am going to keep believing that certain people are just scum.

Each person has different instincts. Let's use an example related to sports (since this is a sports forum)

OK, so you have 2 running backs. They are both 6'0, 200 pounds and each run a 4.5 forty. They both are in good condition, bench, squat, clean and the same weight. Yet one of them is clearly a superior back. It's odd because they are basically equipped the same, but the difference between the two is that one back has way different instincts than the other.

This is the same with people. We are all technically the same, but some people just have way different instincts that cause them to act stupid. Instincts also can't be learned. Sure you can try to refine them, but you aren't going to try and learn or refine your "killing" instincts unless you want to have them in the first place. No normal person is going to say "Gee, I sure suck at throat slitting. I best get me a shank and start practicing on sheep dag' nammit. Hyuk hyuk hyuk." unless they plan on killing or hurting someone.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

Through where, GTA IV?

Most commonly, through violent behaviors done to them, or their foundation(e.g. their mother, siblings etc)

Until you start providing me with some well researched facts that everyone is basically born "good" and then either remains that way or becomes evil, I am going to keep believing that certain people are just scum.

Each person has different instincts. Let's use an example related to sports (since this is a sports forum)

OK, so you have 2 running backs. They are both 6'0, 200 pounds and each run a 4.5 forty. They both are in good condition, bench, squat, clean and the same weight. Yet one of them is clearly a superior back. It's odd because they are basically equipped the same, but the difference between the two is that one back has way different instincts than the other.

Your example doesn't apply. Aberrant behavior is usually caused by a skewed perception of survival. Violence plays into it when a person is made to feel week, because they are made to feel alone. Feeling separation is the first step towards aberrant behavior, because the motivation devolves from communal survival to personal survival. This is obviously a paradox because communal survival and personal survival must share a symbiotic relationship for society to succeed.