D-Day

[Cebby]

Re: D-Day

I think you may want to recheck your numbers, Hitler killed an estimated 11 million to Stalin's estimated 60 million.

1. That's about double the estimated deaths of his toll (unless you want to include the Revolution and WWII which would be quite stupid)

2. As I said, comparing the NEP and famine deaths to the systematic extermination of a peoples is ridiculous.

Attributing 20-30 million deaths to the Soviet state during Stalin's regime is appropriate.

Saying Stalin killed 20-30 people in the same way that Hitler killed people in the Holocaust is not true.

Even if you want to count everyone who died from Soviet policies over the course of 30 years, Hitler killed more between the Holocaust and WWII in far more brutal ways in about 6 years. Of the people actually "killed" by Stalin, you're probably talking 5, maybe 10 million.

[Pokes]

Re: D-Day

1. That's about double the estimated deaths of his toll (unless you want to include the Revolution and WWII which would be quite stupid)

2. As I said, comparing the NEP and famine deaths to the systematic extermination of a peoples is ridiculous.

Attributing 20-30 million deaths to the Soviet state during Stalin's regime is appropriate.

Saying Stalin killed 20-30 people in the same way that Hitler killed people in the Holocaust is not true.

Even if you want to count everyone who died from Soviet policies over the course of 30 years, Hitler killed more between the Holocaust and WWII in far more brutal ways in about 6 years. Of the people actually "killed" by Stalin, you're probably talking 5, maybe 10 million.

The famine in the Ukraine was also systematic and planned, they tried something very similar (collectivization) to this in 1919 and millions of people died. There is no way if you do the same thing again you couldn't expect millions of more people to die.

There is also the purges in the 30's where many people simply vanished via the NKVD.

[Scottdau]

Re: D-Day

Bro I am sorry to tell you, but Stalin was as bad as Hitler. The only reason we don't trip about Stalin is he wasn't trying to take over the World. Stalin killed a lot of innocent people. I will say one thing. I will say one thing. My great cousin was killed in a oven by Hitler. They cooked him alive, becasue they thought he was a spy. Very bad stuff and Hitler was known for torture, but make no mistake about it Stalin was known for torture too. Stalin's secret police was no different than Hitler's secret police. Back to D day. That was one slick move. I still get the chills when I see all those paratroopers going in to Europe.

[Cebby]

Re: D-Day

The famine in the Ukraine was also systematic and planned, they tried something very similar (collectivization) to this in 1919 and millions of people died. There is no way if you do the same thing again you couldn't expect millions of more people to die.

Collectivization is a fact of socialism, and famine was a fact of unindustrialized states at the time. It would have happened regardless of who was in power.

It sucked for the Ukraine, and even if you want to consider it a genocide, it still wasn't comparable (in number perhaps it was) to the actual murder of the people that Hitler did.

There is also the purges in the 30's where many people simply vanished via the NKVD.

And compare the numbers of the purges to Hitler. As far as I know, the late 30s purges are in the mid-high hundreds of thousands (executions)-low millions (including gulags over the course of a decade).

As much as I hate Stalin, Hitler was worse.

Attempting to exterminate a race of people with an intention to enslave hundreds of millions of people makes Hitler worse than Stalin.

Stalin sucked, but he was attempting to implement socialism (for the first time ever) in the harshest climate in the world in the most turbulent time in the history of earth amongst a people suffering one of the worst identity crises in history. You aren't going to come out a winner in those circumstances. By no means did Stalin handle his situation well, but Hitler killed the absolute most number of people he could have. Stalin didn't even come close to his highest death count possible.

The only reason we don't trip about Stalin is he wasn't trying to take over the World.

The only reason we don't "trip about Hitler" worse than we do is because of Stalin. If not for Stalin, comparing people to Hitler would be "fighting words." Stalin very well may have indirectly saved the German people. If not for our desire to build/rebuild the FRG following WWII to compete against socialism, Germany would likely be the equivalent of a third world country today.

Stalin's secret police was no different than Hitler's secret police.

Not really.

Hitler's secret police were primarily concerned with eliminating a race of people.

Stalin's secret police were primarily concerned with eliminating political opponents.

Neither were good, but I'd certainly rank racist execution squads as being worse than political enforcers in a time following the most brutal civil war in European history.

[Scottdau]

Re: D-Day

Collectivization is a fact of socialism, and famine was a fact of unindustrialized states at the time. It would have happened regardless of who was in power.

It sucked for the Ukraine, and even if you want to consider it a genocide, it still wasn't comparable (in number perhaps it was) to the actual murder of the people that Hitler did.



And compare the numbers of the purges to Hitler. As far as I know, the late 30s purges are in the mid-high hundreds of thousands (executions)-low millions (including gulags over the course of a decade).

As much as I hate Stalin, Hitler was worse.

Attempting to exterminate a race of people with an intention to enslave hundreds of millions of people makes Hitler worse than Stalin.

Stalin sucked, but he was attempting to implement socialism (for the first time ever) in the harshest climate in the world in the most turbulent time in the history of earth amongst a people suffering one of the worst identity crises in history. You aren't going to come out a winner in those circumstances. By no means did Stalin handle his situation well, but Hitler killed the absolute most number of people he could have. Stalin didn't even come close to his highest death count possible.

Stalin wanted the power. Plain and simple. He used the communist as his tool. He was bad dude. Was he worst as Hitler? No, but was he just as bad I say yes. If he was trying to take over the world. I think you would hear more about just how bad he was. Saddam was a bad dude too. In fact there have been a lot of bad leaders. Just think about some of those Roman Emperors. And some of the Babylonians kings.

[Scottdau]

Re: D-Day

Collectivization is a fact of socialism, and famine was a fact of unindustrialized states at the time. It would have happened regardless of who was in power.

It sucked for the Ukraine, and even if you want to consider it a genocide, it still wasn't comparable (in number perhaps it was) to the actual murder of the people that Hitler did.



And compare the numbers of the purges to Hitler. As far as I know, the late 30s purges are in the mid-high hundreds of thousands (executions)-low millions (including gulags over the course of a decade).

As much as I hate Stalin, Hitler was worse.

Attempting to exterminate a race of people with an intention to enslave hundreds of millions of people makes Hitler worse than Stalin.

Stalin sucked, but he was attempting to implement socialism (for the first time ever) in the harshest climate in the world in the most turbulent time in the history of earth amongst a people suffering one of the worst identity crises in history. You aren't going to come out a winner in those circumstances. By no means did Stalin handle his situation well, but Hitler killed the absolute most number of people he could have. Stalin didn't even come close to his highest death count possible.

Part of that is becasue of the population of Russia compare to Germany. But they both Killed a lot of innocent people and that is my main point. If those 2 could have got together that would have been scary.

[DrJones]

Re: D-Day

Part of that is becasue of the population of Russia compare to Germany. But they both Killed a lot of innocent people and that is my main point. If those 2 could have got together that would have been scary.

Considering Hitler considered Slavic peoples to be inferior, it's doubtful. From everything I've read about concentration camps (and I've been to Dachau), Soviet POW's were treated only a notch better than Jews. Not that it was "easy" being an American, British, or French POW, mind you, but if you were Russian, you were pretty much screwed.

[Scottdau]

Re: D-Day

Considering Hitler considered Slavic peoples to be inferior, it's doubtful. From everything I've read about concentration camps (and I've been to Dachau), Soviet POW's were treated only a notch better than Jews. Not that it was "easy" being an American, British, or French POW, mind you, but if you were Russian, you were pretty much screwed.

What do you think; is Stalin up there with Hitler? To me it is tough one. I hate Hitler he cooked my Grandma's cousin, but I have some family ties in Russia too, so I am sure Stalin killed one of them.

[Scottdau]

Re: D-Day

Considering Hitler considered Slavic peoples to be inferior, it's doubtful. From everything I've read about concentration camps (and I've been to Dachau), Soviet POW's were treated only a notch better than Jews. Not that it was "easy" being an American, British, or French POW, mind you, but if you were Russian, you were pretty much screwed.

Yeah I read that too, but that is why I said that. If they could have got along without betraying each other that could have been a very scary duo.

[Cebby]

Re: D-Day

Yeah I read that too, but that is why I said that. If they could have got along without betraying each other that could have been a very scary duo.

They couldn't get along.

Hitler's ideology called for the enslavement and or extermination of the Slavic people and the largest non-Slavic group amongst them (the Jews).

Thinking that any Eastern European head of state could have "got along" with Hitler is a comical notion.

[DrJones]

Re: D-Day

What do you think; is Stalin up there with Hitler? To me it is tough one. I hate Hitler he cooked my Grandma's cousin, but I have some family ties in Russia too, so I am sure Stalin killed one of them.

I don't know. To me, the "who's more evil" debate is kinda pointless. It's pretty clear, though, that the Nazi threat was greater than the Soviet one ever was. Without the Soviets to occupy Hitler on the Eastern Front, either the Allies wouldn't have won the war, or they would've done so at a horrifying cost. Little comfort to Eastern Europe, perhaps, but I'd rather take my chances living under a Soviet regime than a Nazi one.

[Scottdau]

Re: D-Day

I don't know. To me, the "who's more evil" debate is kinda pointless. It's pretty clear, though, that the Nazi threat was greater than the Soviet one ever was. Without the Soviets to occupy Hitler on the Eastern Front, either the Allies wouldn't have won the war, or they would've done so at a horrifying cost. Little comfort to Eastern Europe, perhaps, but I'd rather take my chances living under a Soviet regime than a Nazi one.

Maybe. I still think Stalin was bad too. Maybe not as bad as Hitler. But Germany did have the best generals and leaders. So if it wasn't for Hitler making all those stupid decisions and thinking all his Generals were out to get him. I think they might have been able to over take Europe.

[Scottdau]

Re: D-Day

They couldn't get along.

Hitler's ideology called for the enslavement and or extermination of the Slavic people and the largest non-Slavic group amongst them (the Jews).

Thinking that any Eastern European head of state could have "got along" with Hitler is a comical notion.

Mussolini seems to be able to get a long.

[Cebby]

Re: D-Day

Mussolini seems to be able to get a long.

When did Italians become Slavs or Italy become Eastern Europe?

[Scottdau]

Re: D-Day

When did Italians become Slavs or Italy become Eastern Europe?

To me it sound like you said anyone with Hitler.