Man faces 16 years in jail for videotaping gun-waving cop

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  • NDAlum
    ND
    • Jun 2010
    • 11453

    #91
    Re: Man faces 16 years in jail for videotaping gun-waving cop

    Originally posted by RAZRr1275
    Are you just arguing against the people that think he was wrong due to the generalizations of cops and talk of warzones or what?

    Just wondering.
    I do not believe the Officer was in the wrong. If the Officer did as the Thread Title stated and was a "gun-waving cop" then I would find it very difficult to see justification for his actions.
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    • PVarck31
      Moderator
      • Jan 2003
      • 16869

      #92
      Re: Man faces 16 years in jail for videotaping gun-waving cop

      Originally posted by Cusefan
      Yea and my Buddy got blown to pieces in Iraq, does that mean he should have shot everyone with a Cell Phone?(its a common detonating device)
      WTH are you talking about?? No one was shot, there wasn't even a cell phone, it was a helmet camera. Im not gonna argue with you, over when an officer should pull a gun. The fact of the matter is that it is becoming standard practice now to unholster your gun when conducting a traffic stop. This is due to the high numbers of cops being shot and killed during traffic stops before they even get a chance to unstrap their holster.

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      • RAZRr1275
        All Star
        • Sep 2007
        • 9918

        #93
        Re: Man faces 16 years in jail for videotaping gun-waving cop

        Originally posted by NDAlum
        I do not believe the Officer was in the wrong. If the Officer did as the Thread Title stated and was a "gun-waving cop" then I would find it very difficult to see justification for his actions.
        Cool. Just wanted to clarify because you said this

        Action beats reaction. The Officer took a precautionary step for some reason. Personally, I'm curious why he did unholster his firearm.

        Originally posted by pjv31_OS
        WTH are you talking about?? No one was shot, there wasn't even a cell phone, it was a helmet camera. Im not gonna argue with you, over when an officer should pull a gun. The fact of the matter is that it is becoming standard practice now to unholster your gun when conducting a traffic stop. This is due to the high numbers of cops being shot and killed during traffic stops before they even get a chance to unstrap their holster.
        Could you answer why he needed to pull a gun when this guy was on a bike with his hands in plain view? I could understand this if it was a car that was stopped but for a bike I see no reason. Either the biker has a gun out and he isn't moving or the bike is moving and he doesn't have a gun since his hands are on the bike. It doesn't take any time at all to deduce one of those things.
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        • BrianFifaFan
          Semi-retired
          • Oct 2003
          • 4137

          #94
          Re: Man faces 16 years in jail for videotaping gun-waving cop

          Originally posted by NDAlum
          #1 - There was a patrol car behind the motorcycle. Watch the vid again.
          #2 - He did not point it in the driver's face.
          #3 - The cop did identify himself if you listen to a video with audio.
          #4 - You are failing to look at it from both sides.
          Yeah, I watched the long version. The cop was in the turn-around when he came flying by. It was an unmarked car, but you could see it sitting there. Then the dude on the bike drives irratically for a few miles. The car was behind him the whole time. If the dude wouldn't have been driving so recklessly the undercover probably would have been so quick to draw. The short version really doesn't tell the whole story. (gotta love creative editing) That said, the wire-tapping charge is a wee bit excessive. They should have just made it a reckless operation charge and left it at that. The long vid is more than enough evidence to take the dude's license for a while. Idiot with a new toy. Wheelies and swerving on the freeway? His fault, not the cops.... And just one more thing, like you said, at the end of the long vid you can see another marked cruiser that gets there about the same time. Obviously, the unmarked called for backup, or the marked unit saw him, too. Still, cyclist is an idiot.....
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          A great product sells itself, no "back of the box" features required! (See Fifa...)

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          • PVarck31
            Moderator
            • Jan 2003
            • 16869

            #95
            Re: Man faces 16 years in jail for videotaping gun-waving cop

            Originally posted by RAZRr1275
            Cool. Just wanted to clarify because you said this

            Action beats reaction. The Officer took a precautionary step for some reason. Personally, I'm curious why he did unholster his firearm.


            Could you answer why he needed to pull a gun when this guy was on a bike with his hands in plain view? I could understand this if it was a car that was stopped but for a bike I see no reason. Either the biker has a gun out and he isn't moving or the bike is moving and he doesn't have a gun since his hands are on the bike. It doesn't take any time at all to deduce one of those things.
            For whatever reason, he must have felt that the situation warranted it. I don't know why he did it. But I do know he did nothing wrong. Actually I have an idea why he did it, but its pure speculation. If that biker decides to flee, which would be a whole lot easier for a biker to flee then a car, he could have posed serious danger to the other motorists. Also it could be based on the bikers behavior before the stop. This is just speculation though.

            Oh and I also believe the wire tapping charges are ridiculous.
            Last edited by PVarck31; 08-03-2010, 03:33 PM.

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            • Cusefan
              Earlwolfx on XBL
              • Oct 2003
              • 9820

              #96
              Re: Man faces 16 years in jail for videotaping gun-waving cop

              Originally posted by pjv31_OS
              WTH are you talking about?? No one was shot, there wasn't even a cell phone, it was a helmet camera. Im not gonna argue with you, over when an officer should pull a gun. The fact of the matter is that it is becoming standard practice now to unholster your gun when conducting a traffic stop. This is due to the high numbers of cops being shot and killed during traffic stops before they even get a chance to unstrap their holster.
              What I am saying is that is a hazard of the job as IEDs became hazards in Iraq. Pulling your gun should be your last resort is all I am saying. Also, considering the number of Traffic stops, the amount of police killed is not that bad. I only have statistics from 1994-2003 but 101 Police were killed during traffic stops, Considering there are hundred of thousands of traffic stops each year, The odds are pretty good you will never get shot.

              http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/leoka03.pdf See table 17
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              • RAZRr1275
                All Star
                • Sep 2007
                • 9918

                #97
                Re: Man faces 16 years in jail for videotaping gun-waving cop

                Originally posted by pjv31_OS
                For whatever reason, he must have felt that the situation warranted it. I don't know why he did it. But I do know he did nothing wrong. Actually I have an idea why he did it, but its pure speculation. If that biker decides to flee, which would be a whole lot easier for a biker to flee then a car, he could have posed serious danger to the other motorists. This is just speculation though.
                If you can't say why there was a threat that made it necessary to pull a gun how can you say that this guy wasn't wrong to do so?

                And if that biker did flee do you really shoot him in the back?
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                • NDAlum
                  ND
                  • Jun 2010
                  • 11453

                  #98
                  Re: Man faces 16 years in jail for videotaping gun-waving cop

                  Originally posted by Cusefan
                  Escalation of Force is pretty simple, it basically means you counter the force of an individual with equal or greater force. For example, Someone wants to fist fight you, so you grab a Pepper Spray. Someone has a Bat, so you use your Taser. Someone has a Knife, you pull your gun.

                  Pulling a gun is considered using force because it is meant to intimidate. This Cop obviously was not in imminent danger, Worst case scenario is the Biker pulls away and avoids arrest, this is still not cause to shoot him. When you pull your Gun, you better be ready to use it.

                  Think of it this way, you see a Biker doing 120+ on the highway, you see him at a red light. You have every right to make a citizens arrest if you have proper evidence. You tell this biker you are making a Citizens arrest and he does not resist, can you pull a gun on him?
                  I disagree that unholstering a gun is a use of force. I also disagree with your worst case scenario.

                  I am unaware of the citizens arrest protocal so I will decline to comment.

                  I also disagree with pulling out a tazer vs. a bat. A bat is considered deadly force, therefore a tazer is inadequate.

                  The purpose of a tazer is to combat physical active aggression.

                  You may follow a different use of force continuum, so that may lead to the disagreements I have with your posts.
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                  • CMH
                    Making you famous
                    • Oct 2002
                    • 26203

                    #99
                    Re: Man faces 16 years in jail for videotaping gun-waving cop

                    Originally posted by RAZRr1275
                    Could you answer why he needed to pull a gun when this guy was on a bike with his hands in plain view? I could understand this if it was a car that was stopped but for a bike I see no reason. Either the biker has a gun out and he isn't moving or the bike is moving and he doesn't have a gun since his hands are on the bike. It doesn't take any time at all to deduce one of those things.
                    I'm thinking maybe because it's protocol or maybe because he didn't see his hands immediately. It's possible he's been so seriously trained into unholstering his gun that it was his natural reaction to.

                    I'm not sure why everyone is still talking about this. The cop put the weapon away pretty quickly once he realized there was no danger. People are breaking down a video as if a cop was going to immediately know there was zero danger. The guy had just stepped out of his vehicle. Lets really consider the man's actions here.
                    "It may well be that we spectators, who are not divinely gifted as athletes, are the only ones able to truly see, articulate and animate the experience of the gift we are denied. And that those who receive and act out the gift of athletic genius must, perforce, be blind and dumb about it -- and not because blindness and dumbness are the price of the gift, but because they are its essence." - David Foster Wallace

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                    • Cusefan
                      Earlwolfx on XBL
                      • Oct 2003
                      • 9820

                      #100
                      Re: Man faces 16 years in jail for videotaping gun-waving cop

                      Originally posted by pjv31_OS
                      If that biker decides to flee, which would be a whole lot easier for a biker to flee then a car, he could have posed serious danger to the other motorists. Also it could be based on the bikers behavior before the stop. This is just speculation though.
                      Resisting Arrest is not cause for deadly force.
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                      • RAZRr1275
                        All Star
                        • Sep 2007
                        • 9918

                        #101
                        Re: Man faces 16 years in jail for videotaping gun-waving cop

                        Originally posted by YankeePride
                        I'm thinking maybe because it's protocol or maybe because he didn't see his hands immediately. It's possible he's been so seriously trained into unholstering his gun that it was his natural reaction to.

                        I'm not sure why everyone is still talking about this. The cop put the weapon away pretty quickly once he realized there was no danger. People are breaking down a video as if a cop was going to immediately know there was zero danger. The guy had just stepped out of his vehicle. Lets really consider the man's actions here.
                        I can understand that but I hope that the protocol for stopping a bike is different than the protocol of stopping a car. As for the hands he didn't even need to see them. The bike was moving so the guy had to have his hands on the bike.
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                        • PVarck31
                          Moderator
                          • Jan 2003
                          • 16869

                          #102
                          Re: Man faces 16 years in jail for videotaping gun-waving cop

                          Originally posted by RAZRr1275
                          If you can't say why there was a threat that made it necessary to pull a gun how can you say that this guy wasn't wrong to do so?

                          And if that biker did flee do you really shoot him in the back?
                          Because its not against the law to unholster your weapon when making a traffic stop. If the officer felt he needed to then that's why he did it.

                          And your second question is just plain ridiculous.

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                          • CMH
                            Making you famous
                            • Oct 2002
                            • 26203

                            #103
                            Re: Man faces 16 years in jail for videotaping gun-waving cop

                            Originally posted by Cusefan
                            What I am saying is that is a hazard of the job as IEDs became hazards in Iraq. Pulling your gun should be your last resort is all I am saying. Also, considering the number of Traffic stops, the amount of police killed is not that bad. I only have statistics from 1994-2003 but 101 Police were killed during traffic stops, Considering there are hundred of thousands of traffic stops each year, The odds are pretty good you will never get shot.

                            http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/leoka03.pdf See table 17
                            Focusing on the bold.

                            1. It's no longer last resort when it's protocol. Several officers here have already said so. I'm really having a hard time understanding why anyone is arguing with protocol. The guy didn't break any so why continue asking this question or making this statement? Best solution is to go to the decision makers and ask them why this is a protocol rather than incriminating someone for an action that was warranted by their education.

                            2. Even if the percentage is small, you think anyone wants to be those 101 officers?
                            "It may well be that we spectators, who are not divinely gifted as athletes, are the only ones able to truly see, articulate and animate the experience of the gift we are denied. And that those who receive and act out the gift of athletic genius must, perforce, be blind and dumb about it -- and not because blindness and dumbness are the price of the gift, but because they are its essence." - David Foster Wallace

                            "You'll not find more penny-wise/pound-foolish behavior than in Major League Baseball." - Rob Neyer

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                            • PVarck31
                              Moderator
                              • Jan 2003
                              • 16869

                              #104
                              Re: Man faces 16 years in jail for videotaping gun-waving cop

                              Originally posted by Cusefan
                              What I am saying is that is a hazard of the job as IEDs became hazards in Iraq. Pulling your gun should be your last resort is all I am saying. Also, considering the number of Traffic stops, the amount of police killed is not that bad. I only have statistics from 1994-2003 but 101 Police were killed during traffic stops, Considering there are hundred of thousands of traffic stops each year, The odds are pretty good you will never get shot.

                              http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/leoka03.pdf See table 17
                              I am not going to compare domestic law enforcement to Iraq.

                              You are right though, odds are you won't be shot, but I knew 2 officers personally that were, and they were killed.

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                              • NDAlum
                                ND
                                • Jun 2010
                                • 11453

                                #105
                                Re: Man faces 16 years in jail for videotaping gun-waving cop

                                Originally posted by RAZRr1275
                                If you can't say why there was a threat that made it necessary to pull a gun how can you say that this guy wasn't wrong to do so?

                                And if that biker did flee do you really shoot him in the back?
                                You never shoot anyone unless they pose an imminent threat or deadly force towards you or another person. If the person flees and that imminent threat does not exist, you do not discharge a firearm at the person.

                                I'm curious to hear what you think causes a need to unholster a firearm.
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