The 2017-2018 EPL Discussion Thread

[dubcity]

Re: The 2017-2018 EPL Discussion Thread

Heard it on NBCSN first. Rafa to Arsenal. Or not.

[Brahvocado]

Re: The 2017-2018 EPL Discussion Thread

Heard it on NBCSN first. Rafa to Arsenal. Or not.

Wouldn't be the worst appointment for them. He'd fix their defense while still having them play decent football, not exactly the most exotic choice though.

[Suntan Superman]

Re: The 2017-2018 EPL Discussion Thread

Wouldn't be the worst appointment for them. He'd fix their defense while still having them play decent football, not exactly the most exotic choice though.

I'd be content with Rafa, as stated earlier, my biggest thing is that I don't want to see Newcastle suffer, and I wish that Mike Ashley would just sell them off so I wouldn't feel bad about good things happening to them.

[Brahvocado]

Re: The 2017-2018 EPL Discussion Thread

I'd be content with Rafa, as stated earlier, my biggest thing is that I don't want to see Newcastle suffer, and I wish that Mike Ashley would just sell them off so I wouldn't feel bad about good things happening to them.

Yeah, losing Rafa AND keeping Mike Ashley would definitely be a pretty dark timeline for Newcastle fans.

Even worse if you consider that there would be a decent chance of Ashley replacing Rafa with Big Sam.

[Leon]

Re: The 2017-2018 EPL Discussion Thread

It's not like he didn't want to win the game. He was just saying winning the FA cup wouldn't move Spurs into a new level, and it wouldn't. Spurs would be put in the bracket before the United's, Barcas, Madrid's and Bayerns of the world until they start winning the league or Champions league. Outside of England, nobody cares about the FA cup, I think that is Pochs point.

Look at Arsenal, they have recently won the FA cup more than anyone but nobody gives a crap about it.

I would have loved to win the cup just to shut people up about a t It's not like he didn't want to win the game. He was just saying winning the FA cup wouldn't move Spurs into a new level, and it wouldn't. Spurs would be put in the bracket before the United's, Barcas, Madrid's and Bayerns of the world until they start winning the league or Champions league. Outside of England, nobody cares about the FA cup, I think that is Pochs point.

Look at Arsenal, they have recently won the FA cup more than anyone but nobody gives a crap about it.

I would have loved to win the cup just to shut people up about a drought but in the end, we all know it wouldn't change anything. Everyone here knows they would then change to Spurs can't win the league or can't win Champions league.

I also think people give Poch too much crap when he's doing the same thing other managers do before big games. Trying to take pressure off his players. All the players hear is from the media about Spurs NEED to win. Poch is trying to relax that.

It's fair to say Spurs would need to do a lot more than winning a league or UCL to get to that level. It's just odd for a manager to say it's no big deal to not win a trophy that's there for the taking when it's the only competition left for them to possibly win. Winning breeds success and makes players (hopefully) into serial winners, and for a young bunch such as Tottenham, that would be a huge boost -- especially if they're trying to keep them together to win bigger titles.

And nobody gives a crap about Arsenal winning the FA Cup because they've done it how many times in the past few years, and considering the stature they like to tout, it's more glaring that they've had a 14-year league title drought and have never won a UCL. At least they have a few cups to back up their "lovely football." Spurs get plaudits without the silverware to show for it, and I don't understand how any supporter of theirs would be satisfied with that.

[Krebstar]

Re: The 2017-2018 EPL Discussion Thread

Overall I'm agreeing on an incredible amount with Leon...but, about those FA Cup wins...

And nobody gives a crap about Arsenal winning the FA Cup because they've done it how many times in the past few years, and considering the stature they like to tout, it's more glaring that they've had a 14-year league title drought and have never won a UCL.

It was three times in four years, mate—three times in four years. That's impressive no matter what cup it is. I'd say people cared less because there expectations for the club to do more, such as a league title. The expectations is what really seems to set apart the difference in criticism of Arsenal and Spurs.

“You [the media] celebrate some teams who have not been in a final for 25 years and yet you kill us, even though we’ve won the FA Cup three times in the last four years.”

Arsenal win a trophy three times in four years that other teams would tout as a successful season if they won it once (Mourinho will not stop talking about another successful season if they win this year), but the joke is that nobody cares because it's just the FA Cup. Well, it's something, and it's more than other rivals did in that time. Was it enough for Arsenal? Absolutely not, as more is expected, at least by the supporters.

At least they have a few cups to back up their "lovely football."

Bingo. It's not the league and it's not a European trophy, but it's an actual achievement other than some kind of moral high ground about how we're playing the game the right way, blah blah. Arsenal did that for years, and now it's hilarious to see Spurs do the same thing.

Playing great or in an entertaining way means nothing if it doesn't at some point come with an actual achievement other than your striker scoring more goals than anyone else.

If Spurs supporters dream of being put in the same bracket as United, Barca, Madrid, and Bayern then they should start by demanding at least advancing to a domestic cup final. How the hell can you realistically expect that squad to achieve anything great than a domestic cup final when you can't even achieve that? Build momentum, create a culture of winning—do something, win something (anything) before you dream of being in the same breath as the biggest clubs in the world that you mentioned.

[QUOTE=Leon;2049330075Spurs get plaudits without the silverware to show for it, and I don't understand how any supporter of theirs would be satisfied with that.[/QUOTE]

I heard things yesterday by pundits that made me laugh and annoyed all at once. Actually excusing Spurs as they shouldn't be expected to compete with the likes of the Manchester clubs and even Chelsea, as they have a much lower wage bill. Yeah...a wage bill that could be increased. The squad they've assembled does not match the low wage bill, so it's not an excuse.

Honestly, until the club as a whole sheds their small club mentality and constant underdog status, they're going nowhere. Act like a big club, seriously want to win trophies (even domestically) and when you don't you should be bitterly disappointed and pissed, not proud that you put on the pressure.

Spurs have such potential with that squad, but there seems to be a serious mentality issue that is holding everything back.

[Suntan Superman]

Re: The 2017-2018 EPL Discussion Thread

I agree with Zero in that trophies as a whole, are generally overrated, nor are they the be all, end all of success. At the same time, I think that when you're in the semi-final, or even quarter final of a cup it doesn't make sense to write it off. I don't care about the League Cup most years, and honestly didn't care until we were in the final this year, but I still would've been a little bit happier inside had we won it, I think the players would have been too. Spurs are doing well but it'd be a shame if a team of that quality didn't win a trophy or two in their time.

[Krebstar]

Re: The 2017-2018 EPL Discussion Thread

I agree with Zero in that trophies as a whole, are generally overrated, nor are they the be all, end all of success.

Are they not the only best measurement of success in sporting competition? What else is there? League finishes? Qualification for continental competition?

Are there clubs who can have successful seasons without even sniffing a trophy? Of course—if Huddersfield manages to stay in the top flight that's a huge success, but that's an entirely different realm than Spurs.

For some teams, the only measure of success has to be winning competitions, finishing first—trophies. Spurs' success should be measured on winning the competitions in which they play, not merely playing attractive football or punching above the underdog status to which they desperately cling onto.

[Suntan Superman]

Re: The 2017-2018 EPL Discussion Thread

Are they not the only best measurement of success in sporting competition? What else is there? League finishes? Qualification for continental competition?

Are there clubs who can have successful seasons without even sniffing a trophy? Of course—if Huddersfield manages to stay in the top flight that's a huge success, but that's an entirely different realm than Spurs.

For some teams, the only measure of success has to be winning competitions, finishing first—trophies. Spurs' success should be measured on winning the competitions in which they play, not merely playing attractive football or punching above the underdog status to which they desperately cling onto.

Sure, like I stated later on Spurs are a team that should be definitely aiming for those trophies as they very clearly have the talent to claim them. I'm not going to look back on the trophyless seasons for Spurs any different than the trophyless seasons for Arsenal, it's ultimately disappointing, but I wouldn't call it failure, nor would i make as big of a deal out of it as some people like to. I do think it's time that Spurs stop trying to play the underdog card at every pass, they're a very talented team, with a good manager, they belong in the top 4 and title discussion regardless of the many jokes I'll make at their expense.

[Brahvocado]

Re: The 2017-2018 EPL Discussion Thread

Spuds are definitely overachieving though.

Not even counting Liverpool who are having their first good season in ages, if you just consider City/Arsenal/United/Chelsea then Spurs should absolutely be nowhere near any kind of major trophy.

Any trophy in England should, in theory, be won by one of the 4 clubs I mentioned, so if Spurs even come close to one then they are having a pretty good season.

[Suntan Superman]

Re: The 2017-2018 EPL Discussion Thread

Spuds are definitely overachieving though.

Not even counting Liverpool who are having their first good season in ages, if you just consider City/Arsenal/United/Chelsea then Spurs should absolutely be nowhere near any kind of major trophy.

Any trophy in England should, in theory, be won by one of the 4 clubs I mentioned, so if Spurs even come close to one then they are having a pretty good season.

I think Spurs squad is better than Arsenals, fairly cleanly.

[Leon]

Re: The 2017-2018 EPL Discussion Thread

Overall I'm agreeing on an incredible amount with Leon...but, about those FA Cup wins...



It was three times in four years, mate—three times in four years. That's impressive no matter what cup it is. I'd say people cared less because there expectations for the club to do more, such as a league title. The expectations is what really seems to set apart the difference in criticism of Arsenal and Spurs.

There we go, 3 in 4. Considering United were the record holders of most FA Cup wins before your recent run, I'm itching for us to win it again and get on level terms once again. Plus, it would make this year a somewhat successful season if we also secure 2nd.

“You [the media] celebrate some teams who have not been in a final for 25 years and yet you kill us, even though we’ve won the FA Cup three times in the last four years.”

Arsenal win a trophy three times in four years that other teams would tout as a successful season if they won it once (Mourinho will not stop talking about another successful season if they win this year), but the joke is that nobody cares because it's just the FA Cup. Well, it's something, and it's more than other rivals did in that time. Was it enough for Arsenal? Absolutely not, as more is expected, at least by the supporters.



Bingo. It's not the league and it's not a European trophy, but it's an actual achievement other than some kind of moral high ground about how we're playing the game the right way, blah blah. Arsenal did that for years, and now it's hilarious to see Spurs do the same thing.

Playing great or in an entertaining way means nothing if it doesn't at some point come with an actual achievement other than your striker scoring more goals than anyone else.

If Spurs supporters dream of being put in the same bracket as United, Barca, Madrid, and Bayern then they should start by demanding at least advancing to a domestic cup final. How the hell can you realistically expect that squad to achieve anything great than a domestic cup final when you can't even achieve that? Build momentum, create a culture of winning—do something, win something (anything) before you dream of being in the same breath as the biggest clubs in the world that you mentioned.



I heard things yesterday by pundits that made me laugh and annoyed all at once. Actually excusing Spurs as they shouldn't be expected to compete with the likes of the Manchester clubs and even Chelsea, as they have a much lower wage bill. Yeah...a wage bill that could be increased. The squad they've assembled does not match the low wage bill, so it's not an excuse.

Honestly, until the club as a whole sheds their small club mentality and constant underdog status, they're going nowhere. Act like a big club, seriously want to win trophies (even domestically) and when you don't you should be bitterly disappointed and pissed, not proud that you put on the pressure.

Spurs have such potential with that squad, but there seems to be a serious mentality issue that is holding everything back.

That's exactly it -- mentality. Spurs seem to have the squad, have the manager, and playing good football to compete, but they still think "Oh, we're just happy to be here." That's great for the rest of us (really), but it's absurd for any supporter of theirs to think that's good enough.

Leicester were just happy to be in the top 4, but they went out and won it all when it was there for the taking.

[stlducks]

Re: The 2017-2018 EPL Discussion Thread

I'd love to know what you guys listen to where they excuse Spurs? Every podcast I listen to talks about how they will lose players because they don't win.

Are you listening to Spurs pods or what?

[Krebstar]

Re: The 2017-2018 EPL Discussion Thread

I'd love to know what you guys listen to where they excuse Spurs? Every podcast I listen to talks about how they will lose players because they don't win.

Are you listening to Spurs pods or what?

Two of the "big three" English pods as I would call them—Guardian Football Weekly and The Totally Football Show—both regularly make nothing but excuses for Spurs. Honestly, it mostly seems to stem from their core of England internationals but it's hilariously predictable.

The past few days is the first time I've heard pure economics used to excuse their failings. Barney Ronay of The Guardian went as far to say the Spurs defense isn't what it was last year only due to their wage structure and their inability to compete with high wages. Even claiming some players had their heads turned. That's not a valid excuse, it's an incredibly poor one. Just as Arsenal could for years, Spurs can afford to spend money even if it means paying their current homegrown players more.

The similarities between the two clubs at certain stages these past few years is honestly staggering at this point.

[stlducks]

Re: The 2017-2018 EPL Discussion Thread

Two of the "big three" English pods as I would call them—Guardian Football Weekly and The Totally Football Show—both regularly make nothing but excuses for Spurs. Honestly, it mostly seems to stem from their core of England internationals but it's hilariously predictable.

The past few days is the first time I've heard pure economics used to excuse their failings. Barney Ronay of The Guardian went as far to say the Spurs defense isn't what it was last year only due to their wage structure and their inability to compete with high wages. Even claiming some players had their heads turned. That's not a valid excuse, it's an incredibly poor one. Just as Arsenal could for years, Spurs can afford to spend money even if it means paying their current homegrown players more.

The similarities between the two clubs at certain stages these past few years is honestly staggering at this point.

That would explain why I have never heard these excuses, maybe I should start listening to this shows. [emoji2]

I listen to some BBC pods, Football Ramble and then a few Tottenham ones. The Spurs ones are actually harder on the club than anyone. I'm still upset we won't have a trophy this season but it's not like Spurs are dropping out of competitions to West Brom or lower league teams like other big clubs did. They lost to Juve and a Jose side and everyone knows how he performs in semis and finals.

We have talked about this before on here so I won't go too into it. But playing "entertaining football" and finishing top 4 is still enough to keep most of us Spurs fans hopeful and satisfied. Do I want a trophy? Of course. Am I satisfied that we are making Champions League a habit? Yes. 5 years ago I was hoping for Europa league, now I see that as a disappointment. That's what has changed for me.

I don't care about how long the drought is, the club is changing into a side that is good enough that people are now expecting/demanding a trophy. Something most of us fans have never experienced.

Krebstar, I can't answer your question from above about "how long until Spurs fans start demanding trophies" (paraphrasing a bit) and I can't answer because I'm still enjoying the fact that we actually have big games. I'm no longer dreading the trips to Anfield that would end 4-0, now I'm looking forward to them. Trophy or not, this team and project give me hope of winning something which, for now, is good enough for me.

The media is always going to be annoying. Arsenal were idiots for keeping Wenger according to most of them and now Arsenal are idiots for letting him go. Their opinions change by the day.