Let's Discuss Preplay Adjustments

[ggsimmonds]

I was accused of favoring the "band aid" approach but in my opinion you are advocating cutting off the hand because a finger is cut.

No one will deny that a portion of the gamerbase uses hot routes to cheese the game. What I will argue is that that portion is relatively small. No need to take away a tool (that is not unrealistic) for everyone else just to make things harder for the esport crowd.

[DeuceDouglas]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

Regardless, if you take away individual defensive hot routes, you absolutely lower the skill ceiling of the video game by virtue of removing entire gameplay mechanics. That's indisputable.

Does it not depend on what you're actually removing though? In an FPS, if you remove aim assist wouldn't that raise the skill ceiling? Don't they play with things like the kicking arc off because they lower the skill ceiling of those specific tasks? I'd be willing to bet there were people that thought a couple years ago that the conservative tackle mechanic lowered the skill gap with how easy it became to suction tackle. I've never played MUT at all but I'd imagine that the Salary Cap mode they introduced is a bit harder because of the restrictions put on it.

I'd argue that just because you remove or restrict something, it doesn't inherently lower the skill gap. I think it definitely can in certain scenarios but not to the point that it's entirely indisputable and I think this thread is proof of that. You say removing the feature lowers the skill ceiling by virtue of removing entire gameplay mechanics, I'll say that IMO it at least maintains that (albeit maybe on a different level) by having to actually put thought and strategy into the plays built into the game instead of choosing a formation and continuously concocting defensive philosophies on the fly that are designed to combat the virtually unlimited possibilities and potential exploits available to the offense on every play.

Either way it's largely irrelevant to me as an offline player so it's not my battle to fight. But as someone who would be interested in playing online again and viewing an eSports side of Madden, I will say there is nothing more that detracts from that experience for me personally than tuning in and seeing players come out and audible to several different formations pre-snap, change the route of every receiver sometimes multiple times, and use exploits like motion slants and/or nano blitzes.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by ggsimmonds

I was accused of favoring the "band aid" approach but in my opinion you are advocating cutting off the hand because a finger is cut. No one will deny that a portion of the gamerbase uses hot routes to cheese the game. What I will argue is that that portion is relatively small. No need to take away a tool (that is not unrealistic) for everyone else just to make things harder for the esport crowd.

The tool is unrealistic though, that much is clear, meaning the individual player micromanagement at the LOS. Some things have gotten convoluted in this thread, namely this thing with what competitive gamers want being a factor in keeping it status quo but that's besides the point that it's unrealistic. Regardless of if it stays, gets moved, removed, more risk added, etc, it/the micromanagement at the LOS, is still unrealistic. Whether it's used to create an entirely new play at the LOS or just used to press one corner without taking direct User control at the LOS, it's still unrealistic.

I've made this point before that coordinators in the NFL, either from the booth or now likely on their computer screens on the sidelines, have the same or a very similar "god's view" of each play like the gamer does in Madden and it's one of the reasons communications are cut with the sideline, for players on the field during plays. That's similar to what I'm saying, at the LOS let it be more about player and User execution and nominal adjustments vs coaching/coordinator micromanagement.

After typing this I searched about the NFL communication system and even though they have some rule changes this year, it seems communication will still cut with 15 seconds left on the play clock. The point still standing that even the real NFL realizes how advantageous it is to have the sideline micromanaging plays at the LOS and it's even more so the case in Madden, seeing as nothing actually needs to be communicated or balanced.

I will say that considering how sideline communication works in the NFL, if Madden could somehow represent that in preplay adjustments, ie disabling it with 15 seconds on the play clock, simulate the individual adjustment actually being communicated, etc vs the mess that currently goes on in 10 seconds and under, that would be improvement, imo. However even then, there still shouldn't be whole new plays created at the LOS, no one is doing that in the NFL at the LOS.

[4thQtrStre5S]

Quote: Originally Posted by BreakingBad2013

Competitive does not equal allowing to make fake plays up on fly. I feel like you can be very competitive by calling the correct plays and diagnosing plays after snap.

Problem here is, the stock plays are inherently flawed, especially on defense; and of course game mechanics themselves play a role; suction blocking for one, making the majority of blitz plays useless, and almost eliminating any form of pass rush, which is key in taking the pressure off of DB's; no DB in Madden or real football can maintain coverage on a receiver forever, which is why a pass rush is needed, and Madden doesn't really have such a thing; hence why users need to come up with so called exploits; which in reality, can be seen not as exploits, but merely a means to circumvent insufficient game AI and mechanics. Necessity is the Mother of Invention, and we need a solid pass rush in Madden; Maybe M17 will have it, but until then, hot routes help.

I definitely see the need to adjust defenses on the LOS...The offense, could have some sort of penalty after "X" number of hot routes; motion, shifts, etc should be as they are now. The reason being, the offense is at a basic advantage; though that may change after M17.

I would like the ability to hot route receiver routes that actually include all routes from the route tree for each position; as it is now, there is no flag or post routes available for hot routes, for example.

I get bored with the standard plays; especially on defense and make most of my changes on defense. The only thing for me is, I get tired of making similar changes over and over, and would rather make plays in practice mode; anything else would still result in the same repetition of making changes on the fly, whether on the sidelines or at the LOS. The LOS changes allow for more precise changes in that they can be made as you watch what the offense/defense is doing.

In closing, I believe that as the game does get mechanically improved, the need or dependency on hot routes as a primary means to compete at a high level will dissipate, and M17 may be the start. Until the game of Madden becomes 100% realistic in its fundamentals of football and physics, I don't think certain things should necessarily be removed or changed to a means that prevents a user from making changes on the fly/LOS just on the grounds that it may be unrealistic.

[Big FN Deal]

The people with their voice heard are constructive. Perfect example is @ShutdownSafety - Uses his voice amazingly. Best example I can give.

— Millennium (@MillenniumOS) June 1, 2016

That's what OS's Millennium had to say about Ryan Moody and coincidentally, Moody just made a Youtube video touching on preplay adjustments: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYuaaWsFXIA

Also wanted to add GiantBlue76 reminded me of the "Gameplan" features from NCAA Football, something like that could help to add more realism to coaching up players off the field vs the current preplay set up in Madden:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0LxslkYgrg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BXP9725eJY

[ggsimmonds]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

The tool is unrealistic though, that much is clear, meaning the individual player micromanagement at the LOS. Some things have gotten convoluted in this thread, namely this thing with what competitive gamers want being a factor in keeping it status quo but that's besides the point that it's unrealistic. Regardless of if it stays, gets moved, removed, more risk added, etc, it/the micromanagement at the LOS, is still unrealistic. Whether it's used to create an entirely new play at the LOS or just used to press one corner without taking direct User control at the LOS, it's still unrealistic. I've made this point before that coordinators in the NFL, either from the booth or now likely on their computer screens on the sidelines, have the same or a very similar "god's view" of each play like the gamer does in Madden and it's one of the reasons communications are cut with the sideline, for players on the field during plays. That's similar to what I'm saying, at the LOS let it be more about player and User execution and nominal adjustments vs coaching/coordinator micromanagement. After typing this I searched about the NFL communication system and even though they have some rule changes this year, it seems communication will still cut with 15 seconds left on the play clock. The point still standing that even the real NFL realizes how advantageous it is to have the sideline micromanaging plays at the LOS and it's even more so the case in Madden, seeing as nothing actually needs to be communicated or balanced. I will say that considering how sideline communication works in the NFL, if Madden could somehow represent that in preplay adjustments, ie disabling it with 15 seconds on the play clock, simulate the individual adjustment actually being communicated, etc vs the mess that currently goes on in 10 seconds and under, that would be improvement, imo. However even then, there still shouldn't be whole new plays created at the LOS, no one is doing that in the NFL at the LOS.

No, it is not. Individual adjustments happen all the time in the NFL. The only difference is that those adjustments are made due to pre-defined rules that were set prior.
What is convoluted would be moving the LOS adjustments to the playcall screen. Come on man, in my earlier example of telling one corner to press from the playcall screen you said

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

As far as your hypothetical, if this stuff was in the play call menu the choices off the top of my head would be a) User control the corner and "press" manually or b)preplay adjust in the play call to press a corner and if once at the LOS press isn't the right adjustment, audible to another play, flip the current one or utilize whatever options you still have available at the LOS.

I already have a good option available. It is simply telling that corner to back off. And that happens often in the NFL. But one of your solutions is to audible to a completely different play??

As for your second point about real life coordinators having a bird's eye view and the communication rules. Communication is better in real life than it is in Madden. Computer AI is not nearly evolved to the point where they are even remotely the same.

Now you have yet to offer any reasonable alternative other than vague move it to the playcall screen statements. How would that work? You press a button, then scroll through a list of defenders, select them, then scrolls through a list of possible adjustments?

Some guys exploit LOS adjustments, but at least an equal number use them to approximate a real NFL defense.

[4thQtrStre5S]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

The people with their voice heard are constructive. Perfect example is @ShutdownSafety - Uses his voice amazingly. Best example I can give. — Millennium (@MillenniumOS) June 1, 2016 That's what OS's Millennium had to say about Ryan Moody and coincidentally, Moody just made a Youtube video touching on preplay adjustments: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYuaaWsFXIA Also wanted to add GiantBlue76 reminded me of the "Gameplan" features from NCAA Football, something like that could help to add more realism to coaching up players off the field vs the current preplay set up in Madden: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0LxslkYgrg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BXP9725eJY

I would like to see game plan stuff from NCAA Football added over to Madden, in addition to what we have; though in Madden they rely more on the individual traits of players to determine a lot of what NCAA did in the game plan options; so to work in Madden it would seem that the players who had good traits for certain things in a game plan would do better and vice-versa, which would add in how the user builds their team.

I am not sure how NCAA determined who would make a bad play or good play under certain game plan choices, ie. If a player was not a big hitter, but the game plan was set for the defense to try for big hits, would that player be forced to try to hit big because he was playing under that game plan, thus increasing the chance of missed tackles for that player, or was the chance of hit or miss, equal across the board?

[Big FN Deal]

@ggsimmonds, you basically repeating you like what preplay adjustments allow you to do, is besides the point of how realistic it is or better articulated, how well it replicates football in a video game. We all realize this is a video game so of course there is a difference in replicating what goes on in real football vs actual being able to do it, in a video game. You seem to be saying it's easier for you or more convenient to use preplay adjustments to press one corner at the LOS vs game planning it off the field, a fact I'm not disputing but I fail to see what that has to do with which one is a better representation of real football in a video game.

If you feel that the current way is more realistic or a better representation of what happens in real football than what I'm suggesting, that's cool, we just disagree on that, for reasons we have both stated.