Madden 16 Championship

[StayPlation82]

the problem is "sim rules" "fair Play" is subjective. rules are made by what happens the majority of the time instead of what happens all of the time. you can't be innovative if you're in the majority. boxes feel like cages, sim is a cage that is meant to keep people in the majority. majority feels comfortable and safe, almost to the detriment of the people in the cage.

[BayRaider510]

In Franchise and Offline I play as Sim as possible, which is more fun to me. Online though, my goal is to be as competitive as possible. Why would I handicap myself by playing 100% sim? That's not how Madden works, so don't blame those players. They are doing what it takes to win. The blame resides with EA. I still keep most of my sim aspects but if I learn they can't stop a certain few plays, why would I stop running them?

There are plenty of Sim leagues out there but you should never expect to play Madden competitively playing 100% sim style. You either need to wait for the game to change (hope it does but probably won't) and not play competitivly, or not play a sim style when online if you want to be competitive (unless it's agreed beforehand).

[vannwolfhawk]

Quote: Originally Posted by StayPlation82

the problem is "sim rules" "fair Play" is subjective. rules are made by what happens the majority of the time instead of what happens all of the time. you can't be innovative if you're in the majority. boxes feel like cages, sim is a cage that is meant to keep people in the majority. majority feels comfortable and safe, almost to the detriment of the people in the cage.

Fair play rules and no rules options. You got 2 choices to pick from in how you want to play online. Of course it's subjective, but at least you know that when you pick a game mode you know what type of game your going to get at least. I have very little time to play video games so when I do do you think I want to waste it on playing some guy who is going for it on 4th and 24 and then quitting if he doesn't get it? I bet if you had the 2 modes the quit rate on a sim game would be considerably lower than what they have now...

[GiantBlue76]

I suppose I'll bite on this thread...

First off, let me say that I am 100% against forcing a user to play a certain way in order to constitute "sim". I am a 100% realism fan in my video games, and I have been since the days of the Atari 2600. Anything that gets close to real life in how it plays, I'm going to enjoy much more. That being said, I do not feel that the onus should be on the user to make the game realistic, but it's the other way around. Before the usual happens here, give me a chance to explain what I mean by that statement.

True, organic competition is going to bring out all different methodologies and mindsets when it comes down to it. We see this in real life with things like the wildcat, read option, surprise onside kick, no huddle offenses, etc. etc. There is nothing realistic about forcing someone to punt on 4th down. If I am the type of coach who likes to "unconventional" by going for every 4th down then so be it. I should be able to do that. However, I should also have to suffer the consequences (good or bad) from that play style. (Going for 4th downs is just an example, but calling the same play or whatever else anyone thinks of falls into this category too).

Having said this, my issue with this stuff when it comes to Madden is that the game is built to allow things that escape the realm of what should be possible. This is where the conflict comes in between what the developers are telling me and what they are showing me. All I keep hearing from them is the goal of authentic, realistic, simulation football. Wonderful - that is exactly what I want to hear. However, what I see is the ability to put DEs in man coverage on WRs and have them cover them step for step at times, DTs in spies and running down 87 speed QBs, FB dive plays going for 5 yards a clip against goal line defenses, Defensive backs reacting to the button press of a throw and covering 20 yards of ground to break up a pass, linebackers jumping ridiculously high to get to a pass 20 yards down field, etc. etc. Yes - I get it, the game is full of legacy code and it was implemented extremely poorly over the course of 2006 to 2013. Yes, we know that there will always be something that someone will figure out how to abuse that works more than it should. However, those things can be severely limited with a different approach. Not only should you be talking about creating a realistic game, but you also have to actually IMPLEMENT it that way. For example, I don't mind at all that you can put a DT in a spy or put a DE in man coverage on a WR or send him into a deep zone. You're the coach and you can be as crazy as you wish. This part is good design. I can be a moron defensively if I want. However, the fact that it WORKS is where it all goes to hell. Don't reward the user for being stupid from a football standpoint. If the players moved properly in the game, in a realistic fashion based on their physical attributes, people would stop doing these silly things due to the fact that it simply won't work. This is not a hard concept to see. It is the exact same thing as using Shaquille O'Neal as your point guard in a basketball game. You should be able to do that, but it's going to be a nightmare for you to get the ball past half court. I had first hand experience with this when I started playing 2k football back in 99. Like most Madden players (I had played madden since its inception), I was frustrated because my initial reaction after the snap was to run backwards to escape the pass rush. In Madden I could run backwards with my QB and still throw a dime 30 yards down field. When I tried to do it in 2k, I was getting sacked, fumbling, etc. etc. I had to learn to step up in the pocket. It was incredibly refreshing to have to do these types of things because it is just like real football, which is what we wanted. I could still run backwards if I wanted, and do all of these silly things because it is my free will, but I had to pay the price for doing those things. In order to throw it 60 yards I had to plant my feet and wind up. Makes sense, right? In real life, you are not throwing the ball 60 yards on a dime while running backwards and facing the opposite direction. The game would not cater to that type of play and it accomplished this organically because it took away what was not humanly possible. There is no artificial limiter like a setting or nerfed player movement to make it so my QB couldn't out run defenders by backpedaling, etc.

As someone who only plays in an online league, Madden has made a lot of progress in this area, but it still has a long way to go. That being said, don't blame the players here, blame the game. If you can be successful by putting your DT in man coverage on a TE, then that is on Tiburon and the game design and implementation, NOT on the players who choose to do this.

Limiting what you should be able to do isn't really the right solution here. The issue lies in the implementation which creates the parameters within which certain things can be successful or not. If FB dive gets me 5 yards every down, why would I not call it? It should not work if the game design and implementation is for realistic, authentic simulation. If it isn't (even though the creative director has told us time and again that simulation is his intent 100%) then FB dives up the field, DEs on WRs, etc., etc. will continue to work.

[jeremym480]

Quote: Originally Posted by bucky60

The sooner we have game options to provide the different ways to enjoy Madden, the better off the Madden community will be as a whole. I don't really see sim options in Madden. I see one Madden that people are forced to create artificial boundaries and pray they can find like minded gamer's. I'm not sure why people are so against options built into the game.

I completely agree with this. I know it's been talked about for years, but I would absolutely love to see Madden more sim options. Sim options for things like QB Accuracy, Off ball Injuries, stamina, bad snaps, etc. I want all of this as OPTIONS. Also I want the options to turn of these visual setting and arcade things like Ball Hawk (for online leagues or even customized lobbies that I mention below) that inflate interception numbers. Personally, I would have like to see an option added for the amount of times you can switch players when the ball is in play on defense. Even though I don't play random people online, I think it would be cool if they added different lobby's and rankings for customized settings.

With that said I'm against things like Fair Play forcing you to do certain things in the game like Punt if you don't want to. If they added a Fair Play score to each user (that's similar to Disconnect %) which tracks stuff like punting on your side of the 50 so other users could see if they're potential opponents punts or not, then I would be cool with that. It would be much easier for like minded users to find each other that way, but even then you'll never know if your playing a cheeser until you actually start the game.

As far as like Tournaments it doesn't really bother me how they play. I agree that it's on the developers to stop "cheese". By cheese I mean money plays that work over and over and over again. If you're playing for money, then no one cares about honor. Stuff like in mixing up your plays or playing whatever your version of sim is would probably just result in you getting beat. Like Herm Edwards said "you play to win the game" and if that's money plays and FB dives, then it's on the devs to make those plays less of an exploit.

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by jeremym480

I completely agree with this. I know it's been talked about for years, but I would absolutely love to see Madden more sim options. Sim options for things like QB Accuracy, Off ball Injuries, stamina, bad snaps, etc. I want all of this as OPTIONS. Also I want the options to turn of these visual setting and arcade things like Ball Hawk that inflate interception numbers. Personally, I would have like to see an option added for the amount of times you can switch players when the ball is in play on defense. Even though I don't play random people online, I think it would be cool if they added different lobby's and rankings for customized settings. With that said I'm against things like Fair Play forcing you to do certain things in the game like Punt if you don't want to. If they added a Fair Play score to each user (that's similar to Disconnect %) which tracks stuff like punting on your side of the 50 so other users could see if they're potential opponents punts or not, then I would be cool with that. It would be much easier for like minded users to find each other that way, but even then you'll never know if your playing a cheeser until you actually start the game. As far as like Tournaments it doesn't really bother me how they play. I agree that it's on the developers to stop "cheese". By cheese I mean money plays that work over and over and over again. If you're playing for money, then no one cares about honor. Stuff like in mixing up your plays or playing whatever your version of sim is would probably just result in you getting beat. Like Herm Edwards said "you play to win the game" and if that's money plays and FB dives, then it's on the devs to make those plays less of an exploit.

All of the other major sports games have multiple settings including a simulation setting. Things like fatigue or even player movement are affected by these settings. It's baffling to me that Madden does not have these things. Are we blaming it on legacy or that it's too hard? Fifa and NHL have been around nearly as long as Madden. They don't seem to have that issue, so it is truly a mystery why this has not happened.

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

Sim players do have options: choosing to punt; playing private matches against friends online in online unranked, Ultimate Team, and Draft Champions; and playing in private invite-only online Franchises. The tourney crowd conversely has the option of never punting and playing in public queues and leagues. These filtering options you speak of already exist. As to "Fair Play" options, as soon as we can agree on what "Fair Play" actually means, I'm all for it. There's no consensus right now, however. See my example above.

I'm talking about options in the game, not artificially created rules. The game itself doesn't have realism options, while marketing and the developers are advertising realism.

Never punting should provide real consequences to "never punting". Other games are much better at realistic risk/reward consequences. I say if someone never wants to punt, the game should not force them to punt, but it should also provide realistic risk to "never punting". The gamer should suffer realistic consequences of never punting. Madden is not good at this.

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by jeremym480

I completely agree with this. I know it's been talked about for years, but I would absolutely love to see Madden more sim options. Sim options for things like QB Accuracy, Off ball Injuries, stamina, bad snaps, etc. I want all of this as OPTIONS. Also I want the options to turn of these visual setting and arcade things like Ball Hawk that inflate interception numbers..........

I would also like my SIM OPTIONS to extend to franchise (CFM). I personally would like Madden to be as realistic as reasonably possible, with options to make it as unrealistic as you want it to be (along with complete customization - create team/players, full editing, etc).