Madden 18 Offensive Lineman - Injury Chances

[Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by NateDogPack12

Comments like this are pretty useless / unmerited if they don't come supported by programming / game design expertise. Even the simplest mechanic can have profound implications. (See how WR v. DB assignments affects the defensive alignment algorithm). If it was easy, I think it'd be done by now. It's a matter of balancing the programming difficulty with the upside of the implementation / demand.

This.

The Madden NFL code base is 10,000,000+ lines. Nothing is added to the game easily.

Not to mention the slew of game design questions about having a player randomly get flagged as injured when he falls. Randomness can be really streaky; what happens if you get five random-dice-roll player injuries on five consecutive plays? Just how badly does that series of events, which the end user had no control over and had no ability to mitigate their chances of happening, negatively impact the user's experience?

So yeah, someone can write a dice roll injury thing, but that doesn't mean it's easy to add to the game, nor is it even a justifiable solution to the problem.

[apollon42]

Other sports games don't seem to have a problem with players getting injured.

[OhMrHanky]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

This. The Madden NFL code base is 10,000,000+ lines. Nothing is added to the game easily. Not to mention the slew of game design questions about having a player randomly get flagged as injured when he falls. Randomness can be really streaky; what happens if you get five random-dice-roll player injuries on five consecutive plays? Just how badly does that series of events, which the end user had no control over and had no ability to mitigate their chances of happening, negatively impact the user's experience? So yeah, someone can write a dice roll injury thing, but that doesn't mean it's easy to add to the game, nor is it even a justifiable solution to the problem.

Eh, idk, I think it's justifiable. What is the current algorithm for injuries for players that collide? It's still random there, as well, I would imagine? I understand madden is complicated, however, at certain spots in the code, u simply have 'football player object 1', 'football player object 2', etc. At some point in the code, these players should be objects. Do u seriously think they can implement an ACL tear WITHOUT it being random? By the time madden makes that a reality based on pure physics, we will be living on mars. They're nowhere near that. And, again, sprains, tears, etc, these really are random. A tough foot plant on a cut or while blocking a 340 lb lineman. As a programmer, u have to solution this problem. How can we do that? How complicated should it be? Should it be completely random? Ultimately, even with the simplistic approach I took for an engine, it's not just random, it was based on actual injury % based on, I think, around 4-5 years of stats. I found some article online that discussed injuries, and I think it was 3-5 years or something. But, anyways, I calculated the % of injuries per play based on those stats. Now, you're right. Random #'s can go wonky, but again, I'd argue madden already has random # stuff under the hood. I would argue almost all games do. So, u hopefully write quality code to manage it. I ended up running my algorithm through 1000 plays or something. At first, there were too many injuries, so I tweaked it. Ultimately, I got it down to a reliable setup. I was seeing something like 2-3 injuries per game. Most were light (sprains), with the occasional broken bone, followed by the rare ACL tear. If they only wanted to enable this for Oline/Dline, they could figure that out based on Oline injury %, and let the rest of players have their normal injuries already coded for. Now, I'm not saying this would be overall easy, in terms of graphics, and adding something to code. But, I mean, that's what they do every year, right? They add code and test it. U say, 'what about 5 plays in a row?' I think some of the sim heads would say, 'FINALLY!!! Injuries like u see on Sunday!' lol. I mean, legit, that happens. And, again, hopefully u tweak the algorithm so that that doesn't happen or only happens rarely. So, for me, honestly, specifically related to linemen getting injured, I would argue this is the best bet, actually. Because, there are always awkward collisions in this game. If u based it on physics, when someone's hand goes through someone else's arm, should that be a catastrophic injury? Because, if his hand goes THROUGH the other guy's arm, that dude has GOT to be hurtin'
Now, the real question is bang for buck. And, I totally understand them not thinking this has bang for buck. That's fine. But, if there really was any impetus on getting this in the game, I do think it could be worked in a 1 year cycle. Snap the ball, run the Algorithm, trigger the animations. And, ultimately, hopefully the developer thinks of the numerous situations that could occur, that's a part of coding, too. So, again, I'm not saying it could be done in a day, but I think it could be done in a one year cycle. And, I think based on what appears to be available in the game right now (not real physics), I really think random dice rolls based on real life % is perfectly acceptable.


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[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by apollon42

Other sports games don't seem to have a problem with players getting injured.

As has been reported in this thread and other OL injury threads, the developers have stated it's one heckuva time consuming issue to get into the game.

One can only hope OL injuries climb up the priority ladder.

Here we go, it has nothing to do with comparing to other sports games.

It was an issue of work versus reward. My understanding in talking to devs was it was a massive undertaking to get in game, and as pointed out by others for only a little reward (only some CFM users even want injuries in general). When they lay out the work for the next year they have to do a value assessment of each feature and it was just one that they couldn't financially justify.

[Mike Lowe]

It's inexcusable to go another entire development cycle to not get this done.

Otherwise, Madden is not football, or at least not anything franchise players are after.

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[Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by Mike Lowe

It's inexcusable to go another entire development cycle to not get this done. Otherwise, Madden is not football, or at least not anything franchise players are after.

Hyperbole, much?

My Madden league has been just fine blasting through several seasons in our franchise without offensive line injuries. In fact, the only members of my league who are even aware that offensive linemen can't get injured are my brother and I, who follow the game's development very closely. In the meantime, all of us have very obviously been playing and enjoying several seasons of an NFL football video game.

There are so many more important things that Tiburon could add to franchise mode which would have a much more tangible impact than dice-roll offensive linemen injuries. Personally, I'd rather see more levers for me to pull which meaningfully change my gameplay experience in franchise; compensatory draft picks, team options on first-round draft pick contracts, restricted and exclusive rights free agency tenders, coordinators and position coaches, PUP list, more robust player health management for the players who can get injured, player roles / badges, etc.

Being perfectly honest with you, CPU-triggered offensive line injuries are actually among the least of my concerns for franchise mode going forward.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Quote: Originally Posted by Godgers12

It cant't be hard to have a random injury generator that injures a OL once he hits the ground based on his INJ/TGH ratings.

It could be if their injury algorithm is completely FUBAR, which wouldn't surprise me since a lot of legacy coding in Madden apparently is from previous Madden teams, or so I've heard (and requires scavenger hunts to find things previous Madden teams either poorly documented or buried).

But conceptually I agree with you. If they scrapped the current algorithm they could make one that contains off the ball injuries rather easily.

[Valaskjalf]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

This. what happens if you get five random-dice-roll player injuries on five consecutive plays?

Well in that case you end up with the Chargers' season from 2016