More Links

canes21 · 07-29-2020, 03:50 PM

As the topic says, what are your three biggest issues with the on-field AI in Madden?

Is it the QB AI and their lack pocket awareness? The QB's lack of going through true progressions?

Is it the fact that the AI cannot use the tools the user has such as picking out the Mike, setting up double teams, setting up slide protections, making hot routes, shifting their DL and LBs, pressing on non-press plays, showing blitz on non-blitz plays, etc?

Is it the lack of awareness with regards to the context of each play? Do you hate watching the QB throw the ball down the middle of the field when they have 0 timeoutes and there is 19 seconds left and they are down 5 at midfield? Is it the ball carriers in those similar situations lacking the awareness to step out of bounds to stop the clock? Maybe the fact that some players, like QBs, refuse to step out to avoid contact and instead just run full speed down the sideline taking big hits eventually?

Is it the lack of adaptive AI(hopefully this is fixed this year) allowing players to run the same play over and over and over without the AI sitting on routes, tendencies, etc?

Is it the fact that the CPU doesn't have a true gameplan in each game and plays rather statically? The AI doesn't recognize your left side of your DL is elite and they need to run away from it, they need to chip your DE, etc. The AI refuses to acknowledge that they are running for 6.2 yards per carry on trap plays and doesn't call them except for when the RNG dice rolls tell them to pick that play? The AI doesn't try and target your slow LB in the passing game, they don't try and counter your teams strengths

Is it ball carrier path finding and logic? How often does the CPU try and bounce their runs outside in a smart manner? Practically never. How often do they bounce it outside for a 3 yard loss? Too often. How often do CPU ball carriers run right into traffic because they seem to lack the ability to bounce outside, cut back inside with blockers, etc.? How often do WR's running downfield have a clear path to a TD if the slow down and cut behind a block or two, but they just run in a straight line into the safety and get tackled?

This could go along with with the players' lack of awareness with regards to the context of the games, or even the play selection complaint, but I am keeping it as a separate option. How often do you see the CPU get the ball with 4 minutes left before the half, but make zero attempt to pace their drive out to where they drain the clock out before they score so that you don't get the ball back before the half? How often does the CPU not realize it needs to hurry up until they hit a very certain time remaining in the game? If it's 3 minutes left in the game and they are down 10, no hurry up after a first down. 2 minutes left and they magically learn the huddle up offense. The AI needs more flexibility in what they can do it and when and should at times acknowledge where the game is. Some teams will hurry up when there is still 10 minutes left in a game if they think is the smart move. That's not represented in Madden. Neither is knowing when to go for it on 4th down or knowing when to run the clock down rpe-snap unless they are in the kneeling the ball phase at the end of the game.

Or is it something else that I am not thinking of at the moment? Feel free to point something out that you think needs work that I didn't think of. I'm sure there are plenty of issues during the game that I am missing right now that the smart minds on OS can point out.

TheShizNo1 · 07-29-2020, 04:00 PM

Blocking assignments. I have no issues with guys missing blocks or getting beat but to be completely oblivious of a defender right next to them infuriates me.

Special teams. Haven't been concerned about the cpu doing anything significant on special teams in years.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

canes21 · 07-29-2020, 04:10 PM

I'll reply to my own post here instead of having my initial post be even longer(me typing up a book? noooo).

It was hard for me to pick a final 3, but the easiest one for me to pick was the AI's inability to use all of the pre-snap tools like the user. I know that they can audible, but I really wish the AI could shift their defense around, disguise a blitz, fake a blitz, press on non-press plays like the user can, put guys in motion when it isn't designed into the play, and everything else the user can do.

Having the AI have the ability to use those tools, and to know when to properly use them would make playing the AI finally feel organic and like you are playing an actual opponent. This is one thing I absolutely love in 2k8. The CPU will shift their coverage shells, they will shift their linebackers, they will audible, they will move the linebackers, they will disguise a blitz, they'll show blitz and drop back in coverage, they will move their DB's up to press or back to play off. These types of adjustments keep the vs CPU gameplay from being stale.

Even the earlier EA football games like NCAA 06 saw the CPU have more pre-snap abilities than they do now. That's what makes that game a classic and if you can get over the graphics, that game still plays a very solid game of football f15 years later because the AI in that game might have been smarter than it is now.

My second pick was the AI's lack of awareness and not knowing to throw to the sidelines, not knowing to step out of bounds, etc. This one kills me as my modded gameplay has resulted in my games coming down to the last second more often than the vanilla gameplay. This has led to me seeing plenty of drives where the AI is in prime position to score late and potentially win, but the QB throws down the middle of the field 3 straight times, or does throw to the sideline, but the WR runs upfield, never steps out of bounds, and before I know it the game is over after 4 plays because they only had 1 timeout and the wasted 44 seconds hurrying up to the line after plays they could have simply take one step to their left or right to stop the clock, but instead stayed in bounds and got tackled.

This lacking awareness from the AI takes away from the experience and grants the user such a gigantic advantage in late-game situations because the user knows the CPU won't throw towards the sidelines, they won't step out to avoid a tackle and to stop the clock. When the user has the ball they will know to do these things, they know to catch a ball and run completely horizontal to the LOS to get out of bounds, even if they need to angle themselves in a manner that even loses a yard or two after the catch because it is more important to stop the clock than pick up an extra 3 yards while the clock runs out.

I struggled to narrow it down for my third pick, but I went with the fact that the CPU play calling is influenced RNG. It uses run/pass ratios to act like it is calling an organic game, but the CPU does not actually call plays and craft a gameplan like an organic user.

The CPU doesn't recognize that their run blocking is so much better than your DL's run stopping ability. They don't realize they should continually run the ball and set up the PA. Instead, they run the ball as much as the ratio tells them too, they use PA as much as the gameplan play ratings tell them to, and they just call a random game with a few ratios that influence what they call.

I want to see the AI know they can shut my WR's down so they play man and don't feel as scared to blitz more. I want to see the AI fear my DL and they call more plays with only 3 routes so they can buy time. I want to see the CPU fear my DE and use backs and TE's to chip him with a purpose. I want to see the CPU recognize my left side of my OL is weak so they call blitzes to take advantage of that. I want the CPU to recognize my defense is slow so they take more deep shots than normal because they actually have knowledge to make decisions with a purpose.

If the CPU had the ability to actually call plays with knowledge of the matchups and with a purpose, combining that with the ability to use pre-snap tools, then playing vs CPU games would be organic, dynamic, and fresh each and every single week of franchise mode. It would add so much to franchise mode without any franchise-specific additions being added to the game. It would offer some of the best on field gameplay in a football game ever.

Madden is a solid H2H game, but the CPU/AI is so bad and dumb and lacks the ability to do so much that it is not a strong offline vs CPU game. Playing against the CPU is so static because of the issues I've mentioned and it is an area of the game that needs a ton of love.

Hshaw810 · 07-29-2020, 04:12 PM

Whew too many to name but the thing i hate the most is that the AI has no awareness of score and time remaining. It makes winning feel cheap and therefore i get uninterested quick

TheShizNo1 · 07-29-2020, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheShizNo1


	Blocking assignments. I have no issues with guys missing blocks or getting beat but to be completely oblivious of a defender right next to them infuriates me. Special teams. Haven't been concerned about the cpu doing anything significant on special teams in years. Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Game awareness.

D&D, clock situation, feeding their players that are shining, focusing on my players that are shining, etc.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

canes21 · 07-29-2020, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheShizNo1


	Game awareness. D&D, clock situation, feeding their players that are shining, focusing on my players that are shining, etc. Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

The bold is something I meant to mention with one of my picks, but this is something I really wish the AI would have the ability to analyze. If their RB or WR1 are having a career day, keep feeding them the ball. I hate playing the Cowboys and Zeke gets 40 yards on 5 carries, but he ends the game with 9 carries for 68 yards because the Cowbys didn't keep feeding him the ball in a close game because the RNG play calling said so.

I also hate seeing a WR that I can't cover with my weak secondary get 4 catches for 95 yards in the first quarter, but the AI decides to run the ball 35 times for 80 yards and they lose 13-16. Had they simply continued to spread it out and taken advantage of my poor secondary then they probably score 28+ and win easily, but the RNG play calling resulted in them getting more run play rolls and they had zero ability to identify strengths and weaknesses on the micro and macro level, nor could they take a step back in-game and say, hey, this strategy is working, let's keep airing it out until they stop us.

CM Hooe · 07-29-2020, 04:30 PM

I voted for:

- The AI's lack of ability to use all of the pre-snap tools the User has access to
- The CPU lacks a true gameplan and doesn't play to their strengths/weakness versus the user's
- Adaptive AI being absent or too weak to notice

On account of these three things, I think Madden's User vs CPU experience does a very poor job of preparing users mechanically and mentally for high-level online head-to-head play. This is especially true with respect to advanced mechanics such as defensive hot routes.

The game does a better job teaching basic and intermediate football strategy through the Skills Trainer, but the rigid behavior of the AI (which basically can only call plays assigned to its playbook via what's left of Madden 11 GameFlow) can reinforce some really bad habits in users and hinder their ability to ascend from an intermediate-level Madden player to an advanced-level Madden player.

The most obvious example of this bad reinforcement is how easy it is to exploit the CPU with just a handful of plays (even on All-Madden), because the CPU only runs an handful of defenses, doesn't alter or disguise its coverage from the stock play call, and doesn't attempt to adapt to what concepts the offense is trying to run. A user who can throttle the CPU in this way but doesn't realize that a good user can do more than the All-Madden CPU can will go online and just struggle because they don't recognize disguised coverages, defensive hot routes, or other adjustments being made; the CPU simply isn't capable of those things, so there's no way they could be prepared for that advanced behavior.

A couple of guys in my online league are currently stuck at this intermediate skill level plateau. Unfortunately there's not a good in-game resource I can direct them towards to help them advance. I'm hopeful that the adaptive AI features of Madden 21 will at least start giving these guys a nudge in the right direction, but I fear they will just get frustrated when their go-to plays stop working over the course of a game.

JoshC1977 · 07-29-2020, 04:41 PM

My three "pinch points" are really none of those on the poll. But to me, QB AI is probably the closest to any of mine (and the only one I voted for).

1. Too many 4-verts/shots called. I'd venture that 90% of the "bad QB AI" comes on these calls. This has been cleaned-up some in M20.
2. Long FG attempts that make little sense. It is such a killer in the field position battle.
3. End-of-half clock management. (I doubt I need to elaborate here)

(I don't disagree with a couple of the other poll options, they just don't 'bother me' as much)

View Poll Results: What are your three biggest issues with the on-field AI?
QB AI	33	50.00%
The AI's lack of ability to use all of the pre-snap tools the User has access to	11	16.67%
The player's lacking awareness to throw to the sidelines, step out of bounds, etc.	16	24.24%
Adaptive AI being absent or too weak to notice	31	46.97%
The CPU lacks a true gameplan and doesn't play to their strengths/weakness versus the user's	46	69.70%
CPU ball carrying abilitly or lack of, no following blocks, slowing down, reversing field, etc.	15	22.73%
Lack of ability to run hurry up in different parts of the game instead of only when trailing by X when 2 minutes or less are left, never running a 4-minute offense unless it is the end of a game they are leading, etc.	17	25.76%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 66. You may not vote on this poll

07-29-2020, 03:50 PM	#1
canes21 Hall Of Fame OVR: 41 Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Tennessee Blog Entries: 2	What are your three biggest issues with the on-field AI? As the topic says, what are your three biggest issues with the on-field AI in Madden? Is it the QB AI and their lack pocket awareness? The QB's lack of going through true progressions? Is it the fact that the AI cannot use the tools the user has such as picking out the Mike, setting up double teams, setting up slide protections, making hot routes, shifting their DL and LBs, pressing on non-press plays, showing blitz on non-blitz plays, etc? Is it the lack of awareness with regards to the context of each play? Do you hate watching the QB throw the ball down the middle of the field when they have 0 timeoutes and there is 19 seconds left and they are down 5 at midfield? Is it the ball carriers in those similar situations lacking the awareness to step out of bounds to stop the clock? Maybe the fact that some players, like QBs, refuse to step out to avoid contact and instead just run full speed down the sideline taking big hits eventually? Is it the lack of adaptive AI(hopefully this is fixed this year) allowing players to run the same play over and over and over without the AI sitting on routes, tendencies, etc? Is it the fact that the CPU doesn't have a true gameplan in each game and plays rather statically? The AI doesn't recognize your left side of your DL is elite and they need to run away from it, they need to chip your DE, etc. The AI refuses to acknowledge that they are running for 6.2 yards per carry on trap plays and doesn't call them except for when the RNG dice rolls tell them to pick that play? The AI doesn't try and target your slow LB in the passing game, they don't try and counter your teams strengths Is it ball carrier path finding and logic? How often does the CPU try and bounce their runs outside in a smart manner? Practically never. How often do they bounce it outside for a 3 yard loss? Too often. How often do CPU ball carriers run right into traffic because they seem to lack the ability to bounce outside, cut back inside with blockers, etc.? How often do WR's running downfield have a clear path to a TD if the slow down and cut behind a block or two, but they just run in a straight line into the safety and get tackled? This could go along with with the players' lack of awareness with regards to the context of the games, or even the play selection complaint, but I am keeping it as a separate option. How often do you see the CPU get the ball with 4 minutes left before the half, but make zero attempt to pace their drive out to where they drain the clock out before they score so that you don't get the ball back before the half? How often does the CPU not realize it needs to hurry up until they hit a very certain time remaining in the game? If it's 3 minutes left in the game and they are down 10, no hurry up after a first down. 2 minutes left and they magically learn the huddle up offense. The AI needs more flexibility in what they can do it and when and should at times acknowledge where the game is. Some teams will hurry up when there is still 10 minutes left in a game if they think is the smart move. That's not represented in Madden. Neither is knowing when to go for it on 4th down or knowing when to run the clock down rpe-snap unless they are in the kneeling the ball phase at the end of the game. Or is it something else that I am not thinking of at the moment? Feel free to point something out that you think needs work that I didn't think of. I'm sure there are plenty of issues during the game that I am missing right now that the smart minds on OS can point out. __________________ “No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.” ― Plato

07-29-2020, 04:10 PM	#3
canes21 Hall Of Fame OVR: 41 Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Tennessee Blog Entries: 2	Re: What are your three biggest issues with the on-field AI? I'll reply to my own post here instead of having my initial post be even longer(me typing up a book? noooo). It was hard for me to pick a final 3, but the easiest one for me to pick was the AI's inability to use all of the pre-snap tools like the user. I know that they can audible, but I really wish the AI could shift their defense around, disguise a blitz, fake a blitz, press on non-press plays like the user can, put guys in motion when it isn't designed into the play, and everything else the user can do. Having the AI have the ability to use those tools, and to know when to properly use them would make playing the AI finally feel organic and like you are playing an actual opponent. This is one thing I absolutely love in 2k8. The CPU will shift their coverage shells, they will shift their linebackers, they will audible, they will move the linebackers, they will disguise a blitz, they'll show blitz and drop back in coverage, they will move their DB's up to press or back to play off. These types of adjustments keep the vs CPU gameplay from being stale. Even the earlier EA football games like NCAA 06 saw the CPU have more pre-snap abilities than they do now. That's what makes that game a classic and if you can get over the graphics, that game still plays a very solid game of football f15 years later because the AI in that game might have been smarter than it is now. My second pick was the AI's lack of awareness and not knowing to throw to the sidelines, not knowing to step out of bounds, etc. This one kills me as my modded gameplay has resulted in my games coming down to the last second more often than the vanilla gameplay. This has led to me seeing plenty of drives where the AI is in prime position to score late and potentially win, but the QB throws down the middle of the field 3 straight times, or does throw to the sideline, but the WR runs upfield, never steps out of bounds, and before I know it the game is over after 4 plays because they only had 1 timeout and the wasted 44 seconds hurrying up to the line after plays they could have simply take one step to their left or right to stop the clock, but instead stayed in bounds and got tackled. This lacking awareness from the AI takes away from the experience and grants the user such a gigantic advantage in late-game situations because the user knows the CPU won't throw towards the sidelines, they won't step out to avoid a tackle and to stop the clock. When the user has the ball they will know to do these things, they know to catch a ball and run completely horizontal to the LOS to get out of bounds, even if they need to angle themselves in a manner that even loses a yard or two after the catch because it is more important to stop the clock than pick up an extra 3 yards while the clock runs out. I struggled to narrow it down for my third pick, but I went with the fact that the CPU play calling is influenced RNG. It uses run/pass ratios to act like it is calling an organic game, but the CPU does not actually call plays and craft a gameplan like an organic user. The CPU doesn't recognize that their run blocking is so much better than your DL's run stopping ability. They don't realize they should continually run the ball and set up the PA. Instead, they run the ball as much as the ratio tells them too, they use PA as much as the gameplan play ratings tell them to, and they just call a random game with a few ratios that influence what they call. I want to see the AI know they can shut my WR's down so they play man and don't feel as scared to blitz more. I want to see the AI fear my DL and they call more plays with only 3 routes so they can buy time. I want to see the CPU fear my DE and use backs and TE's to chip him with a purpose. I want to see the CPU recognize my left side of my OL is weak so they call blitzes to take advantage of that. I want the CPU to recognize my defense is slow so they take more deep shots than normal because they actually have knowledge to make decisions with a purpose. If the CPU had the ability to actually call plays with knowledge of the matchups and with a purpose, combining that with the ability to use pre-snap tools, then playing vs CPU games would be organic, dynamic, and fresh each and every single week of franchise mode. It would add so much to franchise mode without any franchise-specific additions being added to the game. It would offer some of the best on field gameplay in a football game ever. Madden is a solid H2H game, but the CPU/AI is so bad and dumb and lacks the ability to do so much that it is not a strong offline vs CPU game. Playing against the CPU is so static because of the issues I've mentioned and it is an area of the game that needs a ton of love. mcdowell31 and Hshaw810 like this. __________________ “No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.” ― Plato

07-29-2020, 04:12 PM	#4
Hshaw810 Rookie OVR: 0 Join Date: Aug 2017	Re: What are your three biggest issues with the on-field AI? Whew too many to name but the thing i hate the most is that the AI has no awareness of score and time remaining. It makes winning feel cheap and therefore i get uninterested quick

07-29-2020, 04:30 PM	#7
CM Hooe Dead! OVR: 45 Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Culver City, CA Posts: 20,960	Re: What are your three biggest issues with the on-field AI? I voted for: - The AI's lack of ability to use all of the pre-snap tools the User has access to - The CPU lacks a true gameplan and doesn't play to their strengths/weakness versus the user's - Adaptive AI being absent or too weak to notice On account of these three things, I think Madden's User vs CPU experience does a very poor job of preparing users mechanically and mentally for high-level online head-to-head play. This is especially true with respect to advanced mechanics such as defensive hot routes. The game does a better job teaching basic and intermediate football strategy through the Skills Trainer, but the rigid behavior of the AI (which basically can only call plays assigned to its playbook via what's left of Madden 11 GameFlow) can reinforce some really bad habits in users and hinder their ability to ascend from an intermediate-level Madden player to an advanced-level Madden player. The most obvious example of this bad reinforcement is how easy it is to exploit the CPU with just a handful of plays (even on All-Madden), because the CPU only runs an handful of defenses, doesn't alter or disguise its coverage from the stock play call, and doesn't attempt to adapt to what concepts the offense is trying to run. A user who can throttle the CPU in this way but doesn't realize that a good user can do more than the All-Madden CPU can will go online and just struggle because they don't recognize disguised coverages, defensive hot routes, or other adjustments being made; the CPU simply isn't capable of those things, so there's no way they could be prepared for that advanced behavior. A couple of guys in my online league are currently stuck at this intermediate skill level plateau. Unfortunately there's not a good in-game resource I can direct them towards to help them advance. I'm hopeful that the adaptive AI features of Madden 21 will at least start giving these guys a nudge in the right direction, but I fear they will just get frustrated when their go-to plays stop working over the course of a game. ClutchCity, TheShizNo1 and canes21 like this.

	MLB The Show 24 Review: Another Solid Hit for the Series
	New Star GP Review: Old-School Arcade Fun
	Where Are Our College Basketball Video Game Rumors?

07-29-2020, 04:41 PM	#8
JoshC1977 All Star OVR: 5 Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Morgantown, WV Posts: 11,561	Re: What are your three biggest issues with the on-field AI? My three "pinch points" are really none of those on the poll. But to me, QB AI is probably the closest to any of mine (and the only one I voted for). 1. Too many 4-verts/shots called. I'd venture that 90% of the "bad QB AI" comes on these calls. This has been cleaned-up some in M20. 2. Long FG attempts that make little sense. It is such a killer in the field position battle. 3. End-of-half clock management. (I doubt I need to elaborate here) (I don't disagree with a couple of the other poll options, they just don't 'bother me' as much) roadman likes this. __________________ Play the games you love, not the games you want to love. Last edited by JoshC1977; 07-29-2020 at 05:02 PM.

More Links

What are your three biggest issues with the on-field AI?