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JRod · 10-09-2003, 01:39 PM

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Kanobi said:

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JRod said:
I have to disagree with you slightly. The run tackles are not as fined tuned as they should be. Containment is a big think in ESPN but the game doesn't reward this becuase broken tackle animation is too quick and let's the offensive playe get out of it before the defense can help in most cases.

Hell, at least defensive players CAN help bring down the ballcarrier in ESPN via the PILE-ON gangtackling mechanic that VC introduced to football-gaming this year. Its WORLDS better than Maddens "Wait Your Turn" tackling where you have to wait until the ballcarrier breaks a tackle before you can have a shot in bringing them down. Plus, Last I checked , broken Tackles occur fast in real life. It doesn't take backs in the nfl 5-6 seconds to break one tackle. Its very quick...just like in ESPN. Madden fans are accustomed to the long drawn out Break tackle animations in Madden that give the rest of the defense time to get there. Thats why basically any pass defense in Madden can be an affective run defense as well...because the running game is too easy to shut down and requires very little strategy and technique to contain. This is the main reason Madden fans who try to play ESPN complain about the broken tackles...because they have never been forced to use so much strategy and technique in order to contain it.

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JRod said:
Second big backs are too powerful. You will see atleast 15 broken tackles a game by there guys regardless.

Two ways to remedy this, allow better plays to hang on to their tackles longer. Sure the better defenses in football swarm around runners but the better defenders can hold on until support arrives. This doesn't happen in ESPN regardless of the type of player you have the animation is the same. It would be nice to have the better defensed hold on longer to their tackles. The second is to have the better defense swarm faster. Make it so they arrive quiker to help out their teammates..

The Main way to remedy that is adjusting your GAMEPLAN sliders and instruct the CPU-controlled players on your defense to focus more on stopping the run. This works....even better when you call the right plays and put your players in good postiion to defense the run.

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JRod said:
I think ESPN is playing with a flaw somewhere.

and from most of your posts I'd say you're pretty obscessed with finding it. Man it'd be awesome if you were a Tester for nfl2k5. If so, then the game would likely be flawless...or we might end up runningbacks that are stopped way too easily...."BitchBacks".

1) ESPN does have wait your turn tackling just like Madden. However they also let tackles get interrupted by the next incoming tackle. They just disguide it better.

2) Players are no less good at bringing down the ball carriers as madden. I've seen the same type of cheap broken tackles in both game. I'll give you an example that happens in both games. It's just one example. Little dump off pass to the RB. I have defender that has to make a one on one tackled but because of ESPN 75% broken tackle ratio I know more than likely it going to get broke. Even though I have some of the best tacklers in the game that doesn't help. It would be okey it it were beter represented rather than having it look like a bitch back.

3) Both games do a poor job of blocking and setting up run blocking. I don't have any real compaints about a hole forming but it's what you don't see most of the time. In madden and ESPN the FB serves more as a run stopper than anything. He should serve as the wedge but rather he just pluggs up the running lane. Happens in both games. Their is no real push to speak of in any game. All the action happens right at the line. And you can forget about having any sort of blocks to have seal a cutback.

4) Yes you can have a better gameplan to stop the run but that doesn't solve th eproblem. You sure like delecting the real problem don't you. When you see posts that runners are getting 43 broken tackles and then there are more people to support it, I think we can safely say that it's a problem.

5)The running game in ESPN is flawed and they have the broken tackle bonanza to hide it plain and simple. If you didn't have borken tackles more RBs would not get about 40 yards a game.

I don't know why you like defending ESPN so much. But it's making you blind to it's flaws and also really turning you into whiner. Hell this is the madden and a post about madden so even any real discussion about ESPN is probably not the best place for it.

However it's almost impossible to have a real discussion anymore with guys liek you. Because you are so blantedly bias.

And as for being set out to find flaws. Got a news flash for you. I'm not set out to find them, they are in the game. It's great that fans refuse to see them in order to make their game more enjoyable but it doesn't mean that it isn't there.

Ignorance is Bliss is a good motto for a lot of fans both ESPN and Madden.

jmood88 · 10-09-2003, 05:03 PM

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Kanobi said:

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Boilerbuzz said:

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jake44np said:
I still think most espn football lovers love the game because it is something different! They are blown away by the presentation and they want espn to be the better game so they make themselves believe it is, which is fine to each him own.

And you can say the same thing about Madden fans. But it's cool that you have such insight to the motivations of so many people. I just love it people can make assumptions about other's motives. I can question Madden fans dislike for ESPN just like you question their enjoyment of ESPN:

"I think that Madden fans hate ESPN because it's different. They want to believe so badly that Madden is better so that they can justify overlooking all of it's flaws..." BLAH BLAH BLAH. Guys, state YOUR opinions and YOUR motivations, and leave it at that. It's really simple.

Here are just a few additions Madden fans can expect for Madden' gameplay and presentation next year:

*1. A shoulder charge, over the pile dive, and tighter control of the spin move where the use actually controls in which direction the spin.

*2. A new "Playmaker All-Tackling System"...Pile-On gangtackling where you no longer have to "wait your turn" to try an tackle a ballcarrier as in all the previous editions of Madden.

*3. Customizable defensive Matchups.

*4. a HUGE amount of new tackling, passing, catching and blocking animations

*5. The ability to call the defensive front seperate from the defensive coverage.

*6. The ability to call hot Blitzes.

*7. The ability to make your DBs play inside and outside technique....even do combinations where you can call bump/inside or bump/outside....or loose/inside and loose/outside

*8. Gangtackle and half sacks will be tracked statistically. For Madden 2004, according to Strauser, gantackle stats where left out because EA/Tiburon feels its all subjective on which player got there first. However, VC was able to program espnfl to know what player got there first and which player assisted. I wonder what Strauser's excuse will be next year?

*9. Vastly improved global headtracking where ALL the players turn their heads and seem somewhat aware of WTF is happening on the field instead staring straight ahead. Expect better DB/WR play where Dbs will mirror the wr and jockey for better position to make a play on the ball.

*10. Expect Improved T.V like presentation complete with a halftime recap of the first half and a weekly primetime show that recaps all of the games for that week.

*11. A Vastly deeeper Challenge System that covers basically every situation and allows the user to select from a wide variety of choices. Alos expect Madden and Michales to discuss the call.

*12. Expect deeper offensive and defensive playbooks

*13. LB with realistic Jumping ability.

14. No more Comeback AI

15. More realistic looking player Models. No more legoland player models.

16. No more Bumper Car collision detection

*17. A deeper and more challenging running game that requires more strategy and techinique to contain. Pass defenses will no longer suffice against the run...nor ill dive tackling at bad angles bring the ball carrier down. Thanks to the NEW "playMaker ALL-Tackling System" , users can pile onto the ballcarrier and ASSIST on the tackle...even knock the ballcarrier back and change their momentum....possibly preventing a key first down or a score.

*18. Attributes will actually have a meaning. A deeper attribute AI that lets the stars players play to their abilites. No longer will there be 6th string wrs rated 51 ovr that play like Randy Moss.

*19. New Attributes..****N COVERAGE, CONSISTENCY, COMPOSURE, ROUTE RUNNING and AGRESSIVENESS... Along with a few other nfl2k4 attibutes.

*20. Adpative CPU AI during franchise Mode where your cpu opponents CLEARLY adapt to your playcalling tendacies as the seasons progress...forcing you to adjust your gmeplan and make changes to your playbook.

*21. New Defensive Line Moves....RIP and CLUB. No longer do you just have the Swim and and spin moves. Next year you'll be able to also use a RIP and CLUB move to get to the quaterback. Thats not all....you will also be able to control in which direction you Rip, Club, Spin, and SWIM for a a deeper pass rush element.

*22. You won't be able to drop back for 25 yards as you can in madden 2004. Nor will you be able to complete sidearm throws around a dlinemens body and back across the field for 40+ yard passes.

23. DBs will no longer teleport to make interceptions.

*24. All "Playmaker Juke System" where you can pull of new jukes and moves using the right analog stick. This might conflict with ability to telepathically instruct your blockers on who to block...which is alreay mapped to the right analog stick when running.

25. More realistic gameplay out of the box. Madden fans will no longer have to spend allt heir time being Gameplay Paramedics. They can actually spend more time actually being able to play a realistic game on default settings.

*26. Expect alot less momentum based Physics. No longer will it take your runners years to make cuts and change direction. "Control will be Tighter than Ever before!" lol! (I can already see this as a key EA Marketing phrase)

*27. All new "PLAYMAKER FOCUS"!!!...this allows the user to CHARGE up or build up kinetic energy that allows them to either perform stronger moves when running the rock or perform more powerful tackles when bringing down those power back. Never before (in Madden's History) as such a realistic element been introduced to football-gaming.

*28. Better scaled and more realistic loooking stadiums.

29. Smarter Crowd reactions and animations. No longer will the crowd movements be Looped in an animation that looks like you just kicked the game winning field goal in the Super Bowl.

*30. Vastly improved Commentary with alot more back n Forth bewteen al and john. This year John and/or al will discuss penalties, previous plays, how a player has played specifically on previous downs, The player's year/school/ht and weight, look at his last season stats, discuss challenged calls, etc.

*31. a Vastly improved audible system that gives you 5 options which are completely editable during gameplay. Alos a new No-Huddle audibling system that openes up even moe playcalling options...making the amount audibles at your disposal vitrually limitless.

*31. The ability Tackle ballcarrier while their in the MIDDLE OF a break tackle animation. This is a solo tackle...Not a gangtackle.

"*" = already in nfl2k4 or previous edtions of nfl2k.

I'm sure EA will add these things along with a host of other gameplay/presentation elements for Madden 2005!

-------------------------------

Espn fans can expect the following additions to espn's gameplay/presentation next year----

1. More transitional animations for running that better depict change of direction.

2. Even More overall animations for blocking, passing catching and throwing.

3. Revamped QB movements and passing animations

4. Better Special teams Play.

5. Improved situational in-game AI for CPU.

6. Possibly 3-man gangtackling. Now a 3rd defender can assist on a tackle.

7. even more realistic player models and a better player customization system likely resulting in, once again, the best player models for a PS2/Xbox football game.

8. A Deeper Fatigue system

**9. IN-game Save!!

I'm sure VC will add these things along with a host of other gameplay/presentation elements for ESPNFL2k5!!!

[**] = alread in Madden 2004 or previous editions of Madden.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I love the ea style name changes to things that were already in other games.

Kanobi · 10-09-2003, 05:05 PM

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brahmagoul said:
I agree that the zig-zagging is a horrible eye sore for ESPN NFL Football. Despite not keeping Madden, I will still buy it next year. I agree with the post that a lot of ESPN players crave something different. I think that has a lot to do with my disappointment of Madden and preference to ESPN this year -- it's a change of pace.

I'm one of the few that stopped playing Madden last year and began playing nfl2k3. While that game some rather notorius flaws it still provided a truer portrayal of real-life nfl football and espn is Highly polished version of 2k3 with lost of new gamneplay features.

Boilerbuzz · 10-09-2003, 05:30 PM

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JRod said:
1) ESPN does have wait your turn tackling just like Madden. However they also let tackles get interrupted by the next incoming tackle. They just disguide it better.

What's your point here? It's true that both games have a tackle system that requires you to "wait your turn". The point I was making that it's not the ONLY thing that ESPN has. No matter how you slice it, this is a clear advantage of ESPN - which was the answer to the question "what does it do better" than Madden.

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JRod said:
2) Players are no less good at bringing down the ball carriers as madden. I've seen the same type of cheap broken tackles in both game. I'll give you an example that happens in both games. It's just one example. Little dump off pass to the RB. I have defender that has to make a one on one tackled but because of ESPN 75% broken tackle ratio I know more than likely it going to get broke. Even though I have some of the best tacklers in the game that doesn't help. It would be okey it it were beter represented rather than having it look like a bitch back.

This been discussed to DEATH. If you choose to not heed the advice given about this issue, then the problem no longer rests with the game. Everyone will agree that it's SUPER hard to bring down backs. But for the people that pay attention, the game has what you need to have more success. And people that have an open mind see that.

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JRod said:
3) Both games do a poor job of blocking and setting up run blocking. I don't have any real compaints about a hole forming but it's what you don't see most of the time. In madden and ESPN the FB serves more as a run stopper than anything. He should serve as the wedge but rather he just pluggs up the running lane. Happens in both games. Their is no real push to speak of in any game. All the action happens right at the line. And you can forget about having any sort of blocks to have seal a cutback.

Two things. First: I think Madden does a better job at making you, the runner, feel like you're moving the pile. Secondly: I see PLENTY of times where my fullback can work his way downfield to take on a safety or a linebacker. Depends on where that defenders meets him. This is in both games.

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JRod said:
4) Yes you can have a better gameplan to stop the run but that doesn't solve th eproblem. You sure like delecting the real problem don't you. When you see posts that runners are getting 43 broken tackles and then there are more people to support it, I think we can safely say that it's a problem.

That's if you believe everything you read. There's no denying the imbalance. But, like I said before, the game has everything you need to prevent this from happening. Period. You're beating a dead horse.

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JRod said:
5)The running game in ESPN is flawed and they have the broken tackle bonanza to hide it plain and simple. If you didn't have borken tackles more RBs would not get about 40 yards a game.

So out of your 5 points, 3 of them focused on the exact same issue. You just rephrased them. The running game and the passing game in BOTH games are "flawed". That's a fact. What's not a fact is your assumption of why it's there. What are they hiding? I say, they are hiding EXACT same issues as Madden, IF they are in fact hiding anything. There are SO many things not true to life in these video games that it's not worth listing here. However, I can understand why. Have you ever played linebacker dude? It's not easy. The bottomline is that defenders are getting to the ballcarrier much quicker than they can in real life and BOTH games have to account for that. Also, I would think it would be pretty hard for any developer to program an AI that has the same kind of instinct as a human. If you think it's easy, you should send your resume to EA and Sega. You'll command a lot of dollars.

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JRod said:
I don't know why you like defending ESPN so much. But it's making you blind to it's flaws and also really turning you into whiner. Hell this is the madden and a post about madden so even any real discussion about ESPN is probably not the best place for it.

I'm a fan of BOTH games. From what I've seen of Kanobi, he is too. Why is it that you seem to feel the need to:
1. Accuse anyone of defending ESPN an ESPN f*nboy.
2. Accuse anyone that criticizes Madden a Madden *****.
3. Hold ESPN to a standard higher than Madden. You talk about issue in ESPN that exist in Madden, but you don't mention that. You slam unique issues in ESPN and ignore the unique issues in Madden. I've not ONCE seen you spearhead or trumpet any discussion centered on either a Madden issue OR an ESPN compliment. I can't say the same for Kanobi. He's always touting Madden's franchise and criticizing ESPN's franchise and other small issues. True, it's obvious he supports ESPN. He doesn't hide that. But there is at least SOME semblance of balance with him.

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JRod said:
However it's almost impossible to have a real discussion anymore with guys liek you. Because you are so blantedly bias.

Kettle/black.

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JRod said:
And as for being set out to find flaws. Got a news flash for you. I'm not set out to find them, they are in the game. It's great that fans refuse to see them in order to make their game more enjoyable but it doesn't mean that it isn't there.

Ignorance is Bliss is a good motto for a lot of fans both ESPN and Madden.

Here's the difference. There are flaws in both games. The difference between the f*nboy and the player that just wants to have fun is that the latter player will look past these flaws at what's right with the game and get over the flaws. He won't keep looking for the next time the flaw pops up. He won't use it as an excuse to hate the game. He won't come to these boards trying to convince everyone else that the WHOLE game is sh*t because of flaws.

You are correct, this thread isn't even ABOUT ESPN, but just like always, when someone brings up a critique of Madden, Madden diehards defend Madden by attacking ESPN OR an ESPN-head will crack Madden and finish by screaming how great ESPN is. Both sides are sick in the head. I got into this because someone posted the question: what does ESPN do better? I answered that. People can dispute those points all they want. But at no point was this thread an invitation to pan ESPN. There's enough of that in other places. There's even a forum for it. Have at it.

Kanobi · 10-09-2003, 05:36 PM

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JRod said:
1) ESPN does have wait your turn tackling just like Madden. However they also let tackles get interrupted by the next incoming tackle. They just disguide it better.

Gimme a f'in break! Thats NOT "Wait your Turn" Tackling then if you can INTERRUPT a Broken Tackle in progress. Hell even Nfl2k3 had this. Madden is now two years behind in this aspect because in you have to wait until The tackle animation is totally completed before you can attempt to bring the ball Carrier down...otherwise you just BOUNCE off. Is not disguised because "Wait Your Turn" tackling isn't in espn. You can obviously interrupt a broken tackle animation and stop the ball carrier.

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JRod said:
2) Players are no less good at bringing down the ball carriers as madden. I've seen the same type of cheap broken tackles in both game. I'll give you an example that happens in both games. It's just one example. Little dump off pass to the RB. I have defender that has to make a one on one tackled but because of ESPN 75% broken tackle ratio I know more than likely it going to get broke. Even though I have some of the best tacklers in the game that doesn't help. It would be okey it it were beter represented rather than having it look like a bitch back.

What kind of example is that, man?? That demonstrates nothing. From what I've seen with a RB ctahinga dumpoff pass htye usually get stuffed in the open field. Now if you give themtime build up a head of steam then thats a different story but they can still be brought down with solo tackle. hit em at the right angle, man.

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JRod said:
3) Both games do a poor job of blocking and setting up run blocking. I don't have any real compaints about a hole forming but it's what you don't see most of the time. In madden and ESPN the FB serves more as a run stopper than anything. He should serve as the wedge but rather he just pluggs up the running lane. Happens in both games. Their is no real push to speak of in any game. All the action happens right at the line. And you can forget about having any sort of blocks to have seal a cutback.

Thats an excellent observation with the fullback in both games. But ESPN does a much better job of downfiled blocking than Madden. O-linemen in ESPN stay with their blocks alot longer and are alot ore agressive in seeking out their specific assignments. Also in ESPN, You have follow you lead blockers and make the right reads as well set blocks up.

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JRod said:
4) Yes you can have a better gameplan to stop the run but that doesn't solve th eproblem. You sure like delecting the real problem don't you. When you see posts that runners are getting 43 broken tackles and then there are more people to support it, I think we can safely say that it's a problem.

I've also played games where I've held rbs to 10 or less broken tackles on 10 minute qtrs All-Pro default and defult player ratings with an avg of 20 run plays called byt the CPU...on Fast gamespeed. I not some self-proclaimed defensive guru but I have used alot of the common run defense strateies that you see in ANY espnfl guide...whether that be Prima, IGN, VGSports, On the forums or whereever. Whther guys choose to apply these tips is up to them. I do wish More guys would try to improve their defensive skills before coming to the boards cliaming Warrick Dunnbroke 45 tacklles against on 5 inute qtrs...thats ridiculous and very difficult to believe. Especially I've held rbs t less than a 3rd tht many broken tackles on much longer qtr lngths with an avg of 60-65 plays called me and the cpu and avg of 20-25 run plays called by the cpu, man.

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JRod said:
5)The running game in ESPN is flawed and they have the broken tackle bonanza to hide it plain and simple. If you didn't have borken tackles more RBs would not get about 40 yards a game. I don't know why you like defending ESPN so much. But it's making you blind to it's flaws and also really turning you into whiner.

I can acknowledge the games flaws but broken tackles is not one of them because once you learn how to contain the running game you won't have a porblem. You don't need to adjust any sliders, you don't need reduce player ratings or any of that. Just learn to call the right plays and put your players in the right position to make the play and they usually will, man. Its really not that difficult to do. It seems guys want everything handed to them nowadays and a game comes along that actually challeneges them and forces them to change their football-gaming habits...habits usually developed after years of playing Madden...and then they complain about it without making any attempts to change those habits in order to be successful in the game...in this case against the run. Its becoming increasingly annoying.

GTheorenHobbes · 10-09-2003, 07:49 PM

For what it's worth, if there's anyone reading this thread that hasn't given ESPN a chance because all of the talk about broken tackles, you owe it to yourself to try it and see for yourself.

There's some things that I can think to change about every game I play (and I've been playing videogame football for more years than I'd care to admit), but broken tackles in ESPN just isn't one of them. Even when I throw to a back in the flat, like JRod mentioned, I still get taken down by the first LB there about 60-70% of the time. And I'm thinking about upping Zeroue's attributes just because he can't break a tackle to save his life, or so it seems sometimes. Maybe I just suck, I dunno. But my tackle sliders are still on default. Like I said, take this for what it's worth.

dano · 10-09-2003, 08:05 PM

Boilerbuzz,

Yes, I am saying that you cannot change the run at the line of acrimmage. Yes, i have played the game. You can switch the play but not just the run direction. If you choose a play to run right and the defense is stacked left you can use playtmaker to run the opposite side. this is not available in ESPN. In ESPN you can swith the whole play which will shift the defense.

So, you are saying that in the NFL a team could pass to the slant receiver every time for a completion but choose not to? The CPU should adjust to what I am doing to win. maybe try into a double man coverage or something to stop it. In madden this happens. tyr running the same play more and see what happens. you will see a new coverage scheme. If I can hot route and get it 95% or the time that means I cannot use the slant route.

I use the analog stick and get the zig zag. i think this is called 8 directional. try running straight and then move right and left. What happens?

I am not fishing for reasons to dislike either game. I bought both right? But after playing both I realized I cannot play a game that I have to help win. If i have to jump offsides so they will kick the winning field goal then I don't want to play that game. maybe to you that is not important but to me it is huge. if you play an entire season and it comes down to one play. exciting right. not in espn. you MAY have to help the CPU beat you because this is the right thing to do. maybe the CPU would miss the 47 yarder butnow it is at 42 and a sure thing. this is not fishing this is a fact.

i play in madden and run two franchises. both made their respective conference championship games. I usually sim the season and play the playoffs. anyway, my first one jets vs titans I got crsushed. my qb threw 3 picks and i had 2 fumbles. the next one i won big. in the superbowl i had a close game winning 23-17. the cpu was driving and using short out patterns to move down the field AND use the clock. the cpu used the cloclk perfectly (in fact too good) and it came down to the final play from the 20. i pciked it off to win. my point is that whne you win in madden you really feel like you won. I didn't have to help or feel liek i cheated.

But i know next year i will buy both. and if espn improves and madden sticks with the same boring presentation then i may convert. just not for 2004.

jmood88 · 10-09-2003, 08:08 PM

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dano said:
Boilerbuzz,

Yes, I am saying that you cannot change the run at the line of acrimmage. Yes, i have played the game. You can switch the play but not just the run direction. If you choose a play to run right and the defense is stacked left you can use playtmaker to run the opposite side. this is not available in ESPN. In ESPN you can swith the whole play which will shift the defense.

So, you are saying that in the NFL a team could pass to the slant receiver every time for a completion but choose not to? The CPU should adjust to what I am doing to win. maybe try into a double man coverage or something to stop it. In madden this happens. tyr running the same play more and see what happens. you will see a new coverage scheme. If I can hot route and get it 95% or the time that means I cannot use the slant route.

I use the analog stick and get the zig zag. i think this is called 8 directional. try running straight and then move right and left. What happens?

I don't see any of the problems that you are talking about but you can switch the direction of the play including the run at the line of scrimmage. All you have to do is press the b button and press the right thumbstick. This is for xbox, I don't know about ps2.

10-09-2003, 01:39 PM	#57
JRod MVP OVR: 17 Join Date: Jul 2002	Re: STOP THE WHINING! MADDEN IS VERY REALISTIC!!!... Quote: *Kanobi said:* Quote: *JRod said:* I have to disagree with you slightly. The run tackles are not as fined tuned as they should be. Containment is a big think in ESPN but the game doesn't reward this becuase broken tackle animation is too quick and let's the offensive playe get out of it before the defense can help in most cases. Hell, at least defensive players CAN help bring down the ballcarrier in ESPN via the PILE-ON gangtackling mechanic that VC introduced to football-gaming this year. Its WORLDS better than Maddens "Wait Your Turn" tackling where you have to wait until the ballcarrier breaks a tackle before you can have a shot in bringing them down. Plus, Last I checked , broken Tackles occur fast in real life. It doesn't take backs in the nfl 5-6 seconds to break one tackle. Its very quick...just like in ESPN. Madden fans are accustomed to the long drawn out Break tackle animations in Madden that give the rest of the defense time to get there. Thats why basically any pass defense in Madden can be an affective run defense as well...because the running game is too easy to shut down and requires very little strategy and technique to contain. This is the main reason Madden fans who try to play ESPN complain about the broken tackles...because they have never been forced to use so much strategy and technique in order to contain it. Quote: *JRod said:* Second big backs are too powerful. You will see atleast 15 broken tackles a game by there guys regardless. Two ways to remedy this, allow better plays to hang on to their tackles longer. Sure the better defenses in football swarm around runners but the better defenders can hold on until support arrives. This doesn't happen in ESPN regardless of the type of player you have the animation is the same. It would be nice to have the better defensed hold on longer to their tackles. The second is to have the better defense swarm faster. Make it so they arrive quiker to help out their teammates.. The Main way to remedy that is adjusting your GAMEPLAN sliders and instruct the CPU-controlled players on your defense to focus more on stopping the run. This works....even better when you call the right plays and put your players in good postiion to defense the run. Quote: *JRod said:* I think ESPN is playing with a flaw somewhere. and from most of your posts I'd say you're pretty obscessed with finding it. Man it'd be awesome if you were a Tester for nfl2k5. If so, then the game would likely be flawless...or we might end up runningbacks that are stopped way too easily...."BitchBacks". 1) ESPN does have wait your turn tackling just like Madden. However they also let tackles get interrupted by the next incoming tackle. They just disguide it better. 2) Players are no less good at bringing down the ball carriers as madden. I've seen the same type of cheap broken tackles in both game. I'll give you an example that happens in both games. It's just one example. Little dump off pass to the RB. I have defender that has to make a one on one tackled but because of ESPN 75% broken tackle ratio I know more than likely it going to get broke. Even though I have some of the best tacklers in the game that doesn't help. It would be okey it it were beter represented rather than having it look like a bitch back. 3) Both games do a poor job of blocking and setting up run blocking. I don't have any real compaints about a hole forming but it's what you don't see most of the time. In madden and ESPN the FB serves more as a run stopper than anything. He should serve as the wedge but rather he just pluggs up the running lane. Happens in both games. Their is no real push to speak of in any game. All the action happens right at the line. And you can forget about having any sort of blocks to have seal a cutback. 4) Yes you can have a better gameplan to stop the run but that doesn't solve th eproblem. You sure like delecting the real problem don't you. When you see posts that runners are getting 43 broken tackles and then there are more people to support it, I think we can safely say that it's a problem. 5)The running game in ESPN is flawed and they have the broken tackle bonanza to hide it plain and simple. If you didn't have borken tackles more RBs would not get about 40 yards a game. I don't know why you like defending ESPN so much. But it's making you blind to it's flaws and also really turning you into whiner. Hell this is the madden and a post about madden so even any real discussion about ESPN is probably not the best place for it. However it's almost impossible to have a real discussion anymore with guys liek you. Because you are so blantedly bias. And as for being set out to find flaws. Got a news flash for you. I'm not set out to find them, they are in the game. It's great that fans refuse to see them in order to make their game more enjoyable but it doesn't mean that it isn't there. Ignorance is Bliss is a good motto for a lot of fans both ESPN and Madden.

10-09-2003, 05:03 PM	#58
jmood88 Sean Payton: Retribution OVR: 40 Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New Orleans, LA Posts: 34,640 Blog Entries: 1	Re: STOP THE WHINING! MADDEN IS VERY REALISTIC!!!... Quote: *Kanobi said:* Quote: *Boilerbuzz said:* Quote: *jake44np said:* I still think most espn football lovers love the game because it is something different! They are blown away by the presentation and they want espn to be the better game so they make themselves believe it is, which is fine to each him own. And you can say the same thing about Madden fans. But it's cool that you have such insight to the motivations of so many people. I just love it people can make assumptions about other's motives. I can question Madden fans dislike for ESPN just like you question their enjoyment of ESPN: "I think that Madden fans hate ESPN because it's different. They want to believe so badly that Madden is better so that they can justify overlooking all of it's flaws..." BLAH BLAH BLAH. Guys, state YOUR opinions and YOUR motivations, and leave it at that. It's really simple. Here are just a few additions Madden fans can expect for Madden' gameplay and presentation next year: 1. A shoulder charge, over the pile dive, and tighter control of the spin move where the use actually controls in which direction the spin. 2. A new "Playmaker All-Tackling System"...Pile-On gangtackling where you no longer have to "wait your turn" to try an tackle a ballcarrier as in all the previous editions of Madden. 3. Customizable defensive Matchups. 4. a HUGE amount of new tackling, passing, catching and blocking animations 5. The ability to call the defensive front seperate from the defensive coverage. 6. The ability to call hot Blitzes. 7. The ability to make your DBs play inside and outside technique....even do combinations where you can call bump/inside or bump/outside....or loose/inside and loose/outside 8. Gangtackle and half sacks will be tracked statistically. For Madden 2004, according to Strauser, gantackle stats where left out because EA/Tiburon feels its all subjective on which player got there first. However, VC was able to program espnfl to know what player got there first and which player assisted. I wonder what Strauser's excuse will be next year? 9. Vastly improved global headtracking where ALL the players turn their heads and seem somewhat aware of WTF is happening on the field instead staring straight ahead. Expect better DB/WR play where Dbs will mirror the wr and jockey for better position to make a play on the ball. 10. Expect Improved T.V like presentation complete with a halftime recap of the first half and a weekly primetime show that recaps all of the games for that week. 11. A Vastly deeeper Challenge System that covers basically every situation and allows the user to select from a wide variety of choices. Alos expect Madden and Michales to discuss the call. 12. Expect deeper offensive and defensive playbooks 13. LB with realistic Jumping ability. 14. No more Comeback AI 15. More realistic looking player Models. No more legoland player models. 16. No more Bumper Car collision detection 17. A deeper and more challenging running game that requires more strategy and techinique to contain. Pass defenses will no longer suffice against the run...nor ill dive tackling at bad angles bring the ball carrier down. Thanks to the NEW "playMaker ALL-Tackling System" , users can pile onto the ballcarrier and ASSIST on the tackle...even knock the ballcarrier back and change their momentum....possibly preventing a key first down or a score. 18. Attributes will actually have a meaning. A deeper attribute AI that lets the stars players play to their abilites. No longer will there be 6th string wrs rated 51 ovr that play like Randy Moss. 19. New Attributes..***N COVERAGE, CONSISTENCY, COMPOSURE, ROUTE RUNNING and AGRESSIVENESS... Along with a few other nfl2k4 attibutes. 20. Adpative CPU AI during franchise Mode where your cpu opponents CLEARLY adapt to your playcalling tendacies as the seasons progress...forcing you to adjust your gmeplan and make changes to your playbook. 21. New Defensive Line Moves....RIP and CLUB. No longer do you just have the Swim and and spin moves. Next year you'll be able to also use a RIP and CLUB move to get to the quaterback. Thats not all....you will also be able to control in which direction you Rip, Club, Spin, and SWIM for a a deeper pass rush element. 22. You won't be able to drop back for 25 yards as you can in madden 2004. Nor will you be able to complete sidearm throws around a dlinemens body and back across the field for 40+ yard passes. 23. DBs will no longer teleport to make interceptions. 24. All "Playmaker Juke System" where you can pull of new jukes and moves using the right analog stick. This might conflict with ability to telepathically instruct your blockers on who to block...which is alreay mapped to the right analog stick when running. 25. More realistic gameplay out of the box. Madden fans will no longer have to spend allt heir time being Gameplay Paramedics. They can actually spend more time actually being able to play a realistic game on default settings. 26. Expect alot less momentum based Physics. No longer will it take your runners years to make cuts and change direction. "Control will be Tighter than Ever before!" lol! (I can already see this as a key EA Marketing phrase) 27. All new "PLAYMAKER FOCUS"!!!...this allows the user to CHARGE up or build up kinetic energy that allows them to either perform stronger moves when running the rock or perform more powerful tackles when bringing down those power back. Never before (in Madden's History) as such a realistic element been introduced to football-gaming. 28. Better scaled and more realistic loooking stadiums. 29. Smarter Crowd reactions and animations. No longer will the crowd movements be Looped in an animation that looks like you just kicked the game winning field goal in the Super Bowl. 30. Vastly improved Commentary with alot more back n Forth bewteen al and john. This year John and/or al will discuss penalties, previous plays, how a player has played specifically on previous downs, The player's year/school/ht and weight, look at his last season stats, discuss challenged calls, etc. 31. a Vastly improved audible system that gives you 5 options which are completely editable during gameplay. Alos a new No-Huddle audibling system that openes up even moe playcalling options...making the amount audibles at your disposal vitrually limitless. 31. The ability Tackle ballcarrier while their in the MIDDLE OF a break tackle animation. This is a solo tackle...Not a gangtackle. "" = already in nfl2k4 or previous edtions of nfl2k. I'm sure EA will add these things along with a host of other gameplay/presentation elements for Madden 2005! ------------------------------- Espn fans can expect the following additions to espn's gameplay/presentation next year---- 1. More transitional animations for running that better depict change of direction. 2. Even More overall animations for blocking, passing catching and throwing. 3. Revamped QB movements and passing animations 4. Better Special teams Play. 5. Improved situational in-game AI for CPU. 6. Possibly 3-man gangtackling. Now a 3rd defender can assist on a tackle. 7. even more realistic player models and a better player customization system likely resulting in, once again, the best player models for a PS2/Xbox football game. 8. A Deeper Fatigue system 9. IN-game Save!! I'm sure VC will add these things along with a host of other gameplay/presentation elements for ESPNFL2k5!!! [] = alread in Madden 2004 or previous editions of Madden. Couldn't have said it better myself. I love the ea style name changes to things that were already in other games.

10-09-2003, 05:05 PM	#59
Kanobi HF Clss f '09 OVR: 14* Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 5,980 Blog Entries: 17	Re: STOP THE WHINING! MADDEN IS VERY REALISTIC!!!... Quote: *brahmagoul said:* I agree that the zig-zagging is a horrible eye sore for ESPN NFL Football. Despite not keeping Madden, I will still buy it next year. I agree with the post that a lot of ESPN players crave something different. I think that has a lot to do with my disappointment of Madden and preference to ESPN this year -- it's a change of pace. I'm one of the few that stopped playing Madden last year and began playing nfl2k3. While that game some rather notorius flaws it still provided a truer portrayal of real-life nfl football and espn is Highly polished version of 2k3 with lost of new gamneplay features.

10-09-2003, 05:30 PM	#60
Boilerbuzz D* Brs! OVR: 28** Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 5,155 Blog Entries: 1	Re: STOP THE WHINING! MADDEN IS VERY REALISTIC!!!... Quote: *JRod said:* 1) ESPN does have wait your turn tackling just like Madden. However they also let tackles get interrupted by the next incoming tackle. They just disguide it better. What's your point here? It's true that both games have a tackle system that requires you to "wait your turn". The point I was making that it's not the ONLY thing that ESPN has. No matter how you slice it, this is a clear advantage of ESPN - which was the answer to the question "what does it do better" than Madden. Quote: *JRod said:* 2) Players are no less good at bringing down the ball carriers as madden. I've seen the same type of cheap broken tackles in both game. I'll give you an example that happens in both games. It's just one example. Little dump off pass to the RB. I have defender that has to make a one on one tackled but because of ESPN 75% broken tackle ratio I know more than likely it going to get broke. Even though I have some of the best tacklers in the game that doesn't help. It would be okey it it were beter represented rather than having it look like a bitch back. This been discussed to DEATH. If you choose to not heed the advice given about this issue, then the problem no longer rests with the game. Everyone will agree that it's SUPER hard to bring down backs. But for the people that pay attention, the game has what you need to have more success. And people that have an open mind see that. Quote: *JRod said:* 3) Both games do a poor job of blocking and setting up run blocking. I don't have any real compaints about a hole forming but it's what you don't see most of the time. In madden and ESPN the FB serves more as a run stopper than anything. He should serve as the wedge but rather he just pluggs up the running lane. Happens in both games. Their is no real push to speak of in any game. All the action happens right at the line. And you can forget about having any sort of blocks to have seal a cutback. Two things. First: I think Madden does a better job at making you, the runner, feel like you're moving the pile. Secondly: I see PLENTY of times where my fullback can work his way downfield to take on a safety or a linebacker. Depends on where that defenders meets him. This is in both games. Quote: *JRod said:* 4) Yes you can have a better gameplan to stop the run but that doesn't solve th eproblem. You sure like delecting the real problem don't you. When you see posts that runners are getting 43 broken tackles and then there are more people to support it, I think we can safely say that it's a problem. That's if you believe everything you read. There's no denying the imbalance. But, like I said before, the game has everything you need to prevent this from happening. Period. You're beating a dead horse. Quote: *JRod said:* 5)The running game in ESPN is flawed and they have the broken tackle bonanza to hide it plain and simple. If you didn't have borken tackles more RBs would not get about 40 yards a game. So out of your 5 points, 3 of them focused on the exact same issue. You just rephrased them. The running game and the passing game in BOTH games are "flawed". That's a fact. What's not a fact is your assumption of why it's there. What are they hiding? I say, they are hiding EXACT same issues as Madden, IF they are in fact hiding anything. There are SO many things not true to life in these video games that it's not worth listing here. However, I can understand why. Have you ever played linebacker dude? It's not easy. The bottomline is that defenders are getting to the ballcarrier much quicker than they can in real life and BOTH games have to account for that. Also, I would think it would be pretty hard for any developer to program an AI that has the same kind of instinct as a human. If you think it's easy, you should send your resume to EA and Sega. You'll command a lot of dollars. Quote: *JRod said:* I don't know why you like defending ESPN so much. But it's making you blind to it's flaws and also really turning you into whiner. Hell this is the madden and a post about madden so even any real discussion about ESPN is probably not the best place for it. I'm a fan of BOTH games. From what I've seen of Kanobi, he is too. Why is it that you seem to feel the need to: 1. Accuse anyone of defending ESPN an ESPN fnboy. 2. Accuse anyone that criticizes Madden a Madden **. 3. Hold ESPN to a standard higher than Madden. You talk about issue in ESPN that exist in Madden, but you don't mention that. You slam unique issues in ESPN and ignore the unique issues in Madden. I've not ONCE seen you spearhead or trumpet any discussion centered on either a Madden issue OR an ESPN compliment. I can't say the same for Kanobi. He's always touting Madden's franchise and criticizing ESPN's franchise and other small issues. True, it's obvious he supports ESPN. He doesn't hide that. But there is at least SOME semblance of balance with him. Quote: JRod said: However it's almost impossible to have a real discussion anymore with guys liek you. Because you are so blantedly bias. Kettle/black. Quote: JRod said:** And as for being set out to find flaws. Got a news flash for you. I'm not set out to find them, they are in the game. It's great that fans refuse to see them in order to make their game more enjoyable but it doesn't mean that it isn't there. Ignorance is Bliss is a good motto for a lot of fans both ESPN and Madden. Here's the difference. There are flaws in both games. The difference between the fnboy and the player that just wants to have fun is that the latter player will look past these flaws at what's right with the game and get over the flaws. He won't keep looking for the next time the flaw pops up. He won't use it as an excuse to hate the game. He won't come to these boards trying to convince everyone else that the WHOLE game is sht because of flaws. You are correct, this thread isn't even ABOUT ESPN, but just like always, when someone brings up a critique of Madden, Madden diehards defend Madden by attacking ESPN OR an ESPN-head will crack Madden and finish by screaming how great ESPN is. Both sides are sick in the head. I got into this because someone posted the question: what does ESPN do better? I answered that. People can dispute those points all they want. But at no point was this thread an invitation to pan ESPN. There's enough of that in other places. There's even a forum for it. Have at it.

10-09-2003, 05:36 PM	#61
Kanobi HF Clss f '09 OVR: 14* Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 5,980 Blog Entries: 17	Re: STOP THE WHINING! MADDEN IS VERY REALISTIC!!!... Quote: *JRod said:* 1) ESPN does have wait your turn tackling just like Madden. However they also let tackles get interrupted by the next incoming tackle. They just disguide it better. Gimme a f'in break! Thats NOT "Wait your Turn" Tackling then if you can INTERRUPT a Broken Tackle in progress. Hell even Nfl2k3 had this. Madden is now two years behind in this aspect because in you have to wait until The tackle animation is totally completed before you can attempt to bring the ball Carrier down...otherwise you just BOUNCE off. Is not disguised because "Wait Your Turn" tackling isn't in espn. You can obviously interrupt a broken tackle animation and stop the ball carrier. Quote: *JRod said:* 2) Players are no less good at bringing down the ball carriers as madden. I've seen the same type of cheap broken tackles in both game. I'll give you an example that happens in both games. It's just one example. Little dump off pass to the RB. I have defender that has to make a one on one tackled but because of ESPN 75% broken tackle ratio I know more than likely it going to get broke. Even though I have some of the best tacklers in the game that doesn't help. It would be okey it it were beter represented rather than having it look like a bitch back. What kind of example is that, man?? That demonstrates nothing. From what I've seen with a RB ctahinga dumpoff pass htye usually get stuffed in the open field. Now if you give themtime build up a head of steam then thats a different story but they can still be brought down with solo tackle. hit em at the right angle, man. Quote: *JRod said:* 3) Both games do a poor job of blocking and setting up run blocking. I don't have any real compaints about a hole forming but it's what you don't see most of the time. In madden and ESPN the FB serves more as a run stopper than anything. He should serve as the wedge but rather he just pluggs up the running lane. Happens in both games. Their is no real push to speak of in any game. All the action happens right at the line. And you can forget about having any sort of blocks to have seal a cutback. Thats an excellent observation with the fullback in both games. But ESPN does a much better job of downfiled blocking than Madden. O-linemen in ESPN stay with their blocks alot longer and are alot ore agressive in seeking out their specific assignments. Also in ESPN, You have follow you lead blockers and make the right reads as well set blocks up. Quote: *JRod said:* 4) Yes you can have a better gameplan to stop the run but that doesn't solve th eproblem. You sure like delecting the real problem don't you. When you see posts that runners are getting 43 broken tackles and then there are more people to support it, I think we can safely say that it's a problem. I've also played games where I've held rbs to 10 or less broken tackles on 10 minute qtrs All-Pro default and defult player ratings with an avg of 20 run plays called byt the CPU...on Fast gamespeed. I not some self-proclaimed defensive guru but I have used alot of the common run defense strateies that you see in ANY espnfl guide...whether that be Prima, IGN, VGSports, On the forums or whereever. Whther guys choose to apply these tips is up to them. I do wish More guys would try to improve their defensive skills before coming to the boards cliaming Warrick Dunnbroke 45 tacklles against on 5 inute qtrs...thats ridiculous and very difficult to believe. Especially I've held rbs t less than a 3rd tht many broken tackles on much longer qtr lngths with an avg of 60-65 plays called me and the cpu and avg of 20-25 run plays called by the cpu, man. Quote: *JRod said:* 5)The running game in ESPN is flawed and they have the broken tackle bonanza to hide it plain and simple. If you didn't have borken tackles more RBs would not get about 40 yards a game. I don't know why you like defending ESPN so much. But it's making you blind to it's flaws and also really turning you into whiner. I can acknowledge the games flaws but broken tackles is not one of them because once you learn how to contain the running game you won't have a porblem. You don't need to adjust any sliders, you don't need reduce player ratings or any of that. Just learn to call the right plays and put your players in the right position to make the play and they usually will, man. Its really not that difficult to do. It seems guys want everything handed to them nowadays and a game comes along that actually challeneges them and forces them to change their football-gaming habits...habits usually developed after years of playing Madden...and then they complain about it without making any attempts to change those habits in order to be successful in the game...in this case against the run. Its becoming increasingly annoying.

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10-09-2003, 07:49 PM	#62
GTheorenHobbes Banned OVR: 21 Join Date: Jul 2002	Re: STOP THE WHINING! MADDEN IS VERY REALISTIC!!!... For what it's worth, if there's anyone reading this thread that hasn't given ESPN a chance because all of the talk about broken tackles, you owe it to yourself to try it and see for yourself. There's some things that I can think to change about every game I play (and I've been playing videogame football for more years than I'd care to admit), but broken tackles in ESPN just isn't one of them. Even when I throw to a back in the flat, like JRod mentioned, I still get taken down by the first LB there about 60-70% of the time. And I'm thinking about upping Zeroue's attributes just because he can't break a tackle to save his life, or so it seems sometimes. Maybe I just suck, I dunno. But my tackle sliders are still on default. Like I said, take this for what it's worth.

10-09-2003, 08:05 PM	#63
dano Pro OVR: 6 Join Date: May 2003	Re: STOP THE WHINING! MADDEN IS VERY REALISTIC!!!... Boilerbuzz, Yes, I am saying that you cannot change the run at the line of acrimmage. Yes, i have played the game. You can switch the play but not just the run direction. If you choose a play to run right and the defense is stacked left you can use playtmaker to run the opposite side. this is not available in ESPN. In ESPN you can swith the whole play which will shift the defense. So, you are saying that in the NFL a team could pass to the slant receiver every time for a completion but choose not to? The CPU should adjust to what I am doing to win. maybe try into a double man coverage or something to stop it. In madden this happens. tyr running the same play more and see what happens. you will see a new coverage scheme. If I can hot route and get it 95% or the time that means I cannot use the slant route. I use the analog stick and get the zig zag. i think this is called 8 directional. try running straight and then move right and left. What happens? I am not fishing for reasons to dislike either game. I bought both right? But after playing both I realized I cannot play a game that I have to help win. If i have to jump offsides so they will kick the winning field goal then I don't want to play that game. maybe to you that is not important but to me it is huge. if you play an entire season and it comes down to one play. exciting right. not in espn. you MAY have to help the CPU beat you because this is the right thing to do. maybe the CPU would miss the 47 yarder butnow it is at 42 and a sure thing. this is not fishing this is a fact. i play in madden and run two franchises. both made their respective conference championship games. I usually sim the season and play the playoffs. anyway, my first one jets vs titans I got crsushed. my qb threw 3 picks and i had 2 fumbles. the next one i won big. in the superbowl i had a close game winning 23-17. the cpu was driving and using short out patterns to move down the field AND use the clock. the cpu used the cloclk perfectly (in fact too good) and it came down to the final play from the 20. i pciked it off to win. my point is that whne you win in madden you really feel like you won. I didn't have to help or feel liek i cheated. But i know next year i will buy both. and if espn improves and madden sticks with the same boring presentation then i may convert. just not for 2004.

10-09-2003, 08:08 PM	#64
jmood88 Sean Payton: Retribution OVR: 40 Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New Orleans, LA Posts: 34,640 Blog Entries: 1	Re: STOP THE WHINING! MADDEN IS VERY REALISTIC!!!... Quote: *dano said:* Boilerbuzz, Yes, I am saying that you cannot change the run at the line of acrimmage. Yes, i have played the game. You can switch the play but not just the run direction. If you choose a play to run right and the defense is stacked left you can use playtmaker to run the opposite side. this is not available in ESPN. In ESPN you can swith the whole play which will shift the defense. So, you are saying that in the NFL a team could pass to the slant receiver every time for a completion but choose not to? The CPU should adjust to what I am doing to win. maybe try into a double man coverage or something to stop it. In madden this happens. tyr running the same play more and see what happens. you will see a new coverage scheme. If I can hot route and get it 95% or the time that means I cannot use the slant route. I use the analog stick and get the zig zag. i think this is called 8 directional. try running straight and then move right and left. What happens? I don't see any of the problems that you are talking about but you can switch the direction of the play including the run at the line of scrimmage. All you have to do is press the b button and press the right thumbstick. This is for xbox, I don't know about ps2.

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