Illogical.

[stlstudios189]

I would assume that they have started working on the base of franchise already but, will add some sprinkles of stuff that we want. I read in Gameinformer that gameplan was actually tested back in October of last year so that means they were working on it before then of course. If Franchise mode is not a completly fresh thing next year I expect a bunch of warrented backlash.

[GiantBlue76]

The biggest problem with Tiburon is that they have ADD. They never build on anything they started. Still haven't heard anything on that great adaptive AI they built the foundation for, the pro tak enhancement, online franchise was untouched. When I hear they have been working on something like gameflow for that long it leads me to believe they are not very good developers.

IMHO, they are not. It shows in the final product. We really need the NFL to open up the NFL license again. Someone really needs to push EA. Madden stinks. It should be much better. They either needs some fresh minds over at Tiburon or they need a new developer for the game. There is, in fact, a development studio that knows a thing or two about how to make a football game... Maybe they will get another shot at it some time soon.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by tazdevil20

The biggest problem with Tiburon is that they have ADD. They never build on anything they started. Still haven't heard anything on that great adaptive AI they built the foundation for, the pro tak enhancement, online franchise was untouched. When I hear they have been working on something like gameflow for that long it leads me to believe they are not very good developers. IMHO, they are not. It shows in the final product. We really need the NFL to open up the NFL license again. Someone really needs to push EA. Madden stinks. It should be much better. They either needs some fresh minds over at Tiburon or they need a new developer for the game. There is, in fact, a development studio that knows a thing or two about how to make a football game... Maybe they will get another shot at it some time soon.

I'm not sure if you've developed anything technical or not, but having a website that I've run for the past 7 years, I've learned one of the pitfalls of developing an older product as opposed to a new one is the old code.

My website literally has thousands of individual scripts... Most of which either are no longer in use, rarely get use, or were never used. Whenever I build in a new function or feature, I build it on top of what I already have. Unfortunately, the underlying code base balloons to a point that you can't kill the unused stuff for fear it will break the stuff on top.

My g/f is training on an upgrade to the software at her job in which some of the old code was removed to make way for newer 'better' code. But her job's work flow is highly customized and relies heavily on the code that no longer exists. Now the software developers are forced to go back and ADD the code they just removed in order to get it to function in my g/f's environment the way they use the software...

Madden isn't any different. Each of us has customized our 'workflow' to make use of 'old code.' I can imagine how this is with a 20+ year old project with so many iterations of code, and so many layers of stuff on top of stuff. While it seems to make sense to strip it and start over, we the consumer are going to notice those bits of code that no longer exist if something we do relies on those bits to function...

I'm sure stripping it down is going to annoy and enrage far more people than it makes happy. See NG Madden '06, 07, 08 for examples of building from the ground up...

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

I'm not sure if you've developed anything technical or not, but having a website that I've run for the past 7 years, I've learned one of the pitfalls of developing an older product as opposed to a new one is the old code. My website literally has thousands of individual scripts... Most of which either are no longer in use, rarely get use, or were never used. Whenever I build in a new function or feature, I build it on top of what I already have. Unfortunately, the underlying code base balloons to a point that you can't kill the unused stuff for fear it will break the stuff on top. My g/f is training on an upgrade to the software at her job in which some of the old code was removed to make way for newer 'better' code. But her job's work flow is highly customized and relies heavily on the code that no longer exists. Now the software developers are forced to go back and ADD the code they just removed in order to get it to function in my g/f's environment the way they use the software... Madden isn't any different. Each of us has customized our 'workflow' to make use of 'old code.' I can imagine how this is with a 20+ year old project with so many iterations of code, and so many layers of stuff on top of stuff. While it seems to make sense to strip it and start over, we the consumer are going to notice those bits of code that no longer exist if something we do relies on those bits to function... I'm sure stripping it down is going to annoy and enrage far more people than it makes happy. See NG Madden '06, 07, 08 for examples of building from the ground up...

Hey TNT,

Cool deal. I've been a software engineer for over 12 years. Without revealing the company I work for or any other details, I've worked on a very successful, well known enterprise messaging and collaboration sweet. Much of the code is 20+ years old. The challenge of extending and building on it exists every day. However, your customers don't want to hear that excuse. You don't rewrite everything. However, you do make necessary changes with the idea in mind that you want it to be maintainable and extensible. I don't think they should have rewritten Madden for next gen. They made the mistake that Netscape made when they did a full rewrite and lost out to IE. We did a rewrite of our client about 5 years ago. We knew that we needed to make it at LEAST as good as the original client without increasing cost for our customers to migrate to it and deploy it. We did it in one release cycle. It took committment and hard work by a ton of folks and talented programmers. That's just what it takes. Look at what Konami did with PES for this year. If you really want to do it right, you can do it.

The other issue is, they have had 6 years now to iron out those issues with adding and enhancing.

See this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB6cyaOJGcE

It's from 2007. He is talking about a brand new animation system, dynamic control, blocking assignments and double teams, gang tackling... Sound familiar? Now what did we hear about this year and last year? All of the same stuff again, and it's still not right. As a customer, I don't want to hear excuses or that something is "too hard". In software, that mindset cannot exist or you won't be around long. In enterprise software, if we have a build that is incomplete or contains features that are not fully baked, we GIVE those builds to our customers and partners. We don't charge them a premium. They get to try it out and provide feedback. We don't lie to them about giving it to them in the next release.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by tazdevil20

Hey TNT, Cool deal. I've been a software engineer for over 12 years. Without revealing the company I work for or any other details, I've worked on a very successful, well known enterprise messaging and collaboration sweet. Much of the code is 20+ years old. The challenge of extending and building on it exists every day. However, your customers don't want to hear that excuse. You don't rewrite everything. However, you do make necessary changes with the idea in mind that you want it to be maintainable and extensible. I don't think they should have rewritten Madden for next gen. They made the mistake that Netscape made when they did a full rewrite and lost out to IE. We did a rewrite of our client about 5 years ago. We knew that we needed to make it at LEAST as good as the original client without increasing cost for our customers to migrate to it and deploy it. We did it in one release cycle. It took committment and hard work by a ton of folks and talented programmers. That's just what it takes. Look at what Konami did with PES for this year. If you really want to do it right, you can do it. The other issue is, they have had 6 years now to iron out those issues with adding and enhancing. See this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB6cyaOJGcE It's from 2007. He is talking about a brand new animation system, dynamic control, blocking assignments and double teams, gang tackling... Sound familiar? Now what did we hear about this year and last year? All of the same stuff again, and it's still not right. As a customer, I don't want to hear excuses or that something is "too hard". In software, that mindset cannot exist or you won't be around long. In enterprise software, if we have a build that is incomplete or contains features that are not fully baked, we GIVE those builds to our customers and partners. We don't charge them a premium. They get to try it out and provide feedback. We don't lie to them about giving it to them in the next release.

I get what you're saying about "it's hard" being a piss poor excuse... I agree. But I think rewriting code is easy. Rewriting code in a way that customers will like IS HARD.

The problem is that no matter what EA does to the code, there's an element of the customer base that will be highly upset. With a customer base that plays the game for so many diverse reasons, has such a wide set of consumers with varied skill, and such a wide range of opinions about what's already there it's practically IMPOSSIBLE for EA to make us all happy. for example:

If EA does something so players can't RC passes, I'm going to be upset. Not that I RC alot, but it's like a car jack. You never need one til your tire is flat. Removing the ability to user catch any ball would make me REALLY ANGRY. By that same token, many players that aren't as concerned with user catching might be happy about a change that makes the RC impossible.

EA is walking a tight rope between giving us what we want and pissing us off royally. No matter what happens, someone on one side or the other will be upset.

Suppose EA removes the throw/catch anytime passing machanic that simulates both the receiver and the QB sight adjusting the coverage and changing the route - people will be mad. Suppose the leave it in... people will be mad.

Even with the things that we consider 'broken,' if there's a change there will seemingly be something 'broken' on the flip side of the coin. If they change the coverage, it's merely going to open up another way to attack the coverage. If it's blocking, it's going to open up another way to attack the blocking.

It's a constant yin/yang effect. I don't envy EA for the position they are in... If it were merely a matter of rewriting code it would be simple. But it has to make people happy.

I don't know about you but it's tough to keep ONE girlfriend happy... and she likes my 'old code.' I can't imagine pleasing 5 million.

Later

[boooey]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

I get what you're saying about "it's hard" being a piss poor excuse... I agree. But I think rewriting code is easy. Rewriting code in a way that customers will like IS HARD. The problem is that no matter what EA does to the code, there's an element of the customer base that will be highly upset. With a customer base that plays the game for so many diverse reasons, has such a wide set of consumers with varied skill, and such a wide range of opinions about what's already there it's practically IMPOSSIBLE for EA to make us all happy. for example: If EA does something so players can't RC passes, I'm going to be upset. Not that I RC alot, but it's like a car jack. You never need one til your tire is flat. Removing the ability to user catch any ball would make me REALLY ANGRY. By that same token, many players that aren't as concerned with user catching might be happy about a change that makes the RC impossible. EA is walking a tight rope between giving us what we want and pissing us off royally. No matter what happens, someone on one side or the other will be upset. Suppose EA removes the throw/catch anytime passing machanic that simulates both the receiver and the QB sight adjusting the coverage and changing the route - people will be mad. Suppose the leave it in... people will be mad. Even with the things that we consider 'broken,' if there's a change there will seemingly be something 'broken' on the flip side of the coin. If they change the coverage, it's merely going to open up another way to attack the coverage. If it's blocking, it's going to open up another way to attack the blocking. It's a constant yin/yang effect. I don't envy EA for the position they are in... If it were merely a matter of rewriting code it would be simple. But it has to make people happy. I don't know about you but it's tough to keep ONE girlfriend happy... and she likes my 'old code.' I can't imagine pleasing 5 million. Later

TNT,
Your defense of EA is a very weak argument, and a total copout.
You are seriously defending the rocket catch?

I would agree with you if this Madden game even just did one thing well.

If this game had a great challenge system, great presentation, realistic locomotion, great tackling, great franchise, but we were seeing some rocket catches or some suction blocking on occasion, then fine I could live with that, and I would even defend EA to a point.

But sadly, this game does not do anything particularly well, from the camera angles, to the tackling, to the announcers.. on and on and on.

Everything they are doing has been done before, and done WAY better, even by their own team.

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

I get what you're saying about "it's hard" being a piss poor excuse... I agree. But I think rewriting code is easy. Rewriting code in a way that customers will like IS HARD. The problem is that no matter what EA does to the code, there's an element of the customer base that will be highly upset. With a customer base that plays the game for so many diverse reasons, has such a wide set of consumers with varied skill, and such a wide range of opinions about what's already there it's practically IMPOSSIBLE for EA to make us all happy. for example: If EA does something so players can't RC passes, I'm going to be upset. Not that I RC alot, but it's like a car jack. You never need one til your tire is flat. Removing the ability to user catch any ball would make me REALLY ANGRY. By that same token, many players that aren't as concerned with user catching might be happy about a change that makes the RC impossible. EA is walking a tight rope between giving us what we want and pissing us off royally. No matter what happens, someone on one side or the other will be upset. Suppose EA removes the throw/catch anytime passing machanic that simulates both the receiver and the QB sight adjusting the coverage and changing the route - people will be mad. Suppose the leave it in... people will be mad. Even with the things that we consider 'broken,' if there's a change there will seemingly be something 'broken' on the flip side of the coin. If they change the coverage, it's merely going to open up another way to attack the coverage. If it's blocking, it's going to open up another way to attack the blocking. It's a constant yin/yang effect. I don't envy EA for the position they are in... If it were merely a matter of rewriting code it would be simple. But it has to make people happy. I don't know about you but it's tough to keep ONE girlfriend happy... and she likes my 'old code.' I can't imagine pleasing 5 million. Later

A good post TNT and I agree with much of what you wrote. I don't really feel as bad for Tiburon though. If you are going to rewrite, you better be damn sure that you don't eliminate features or decrease performance. Your customers don't care about the fact that you had to rewrite it, or it took a long time, or it was a lot of work. That should be completely removed for the customer. What matters is the final product. If you are rewriting something and it isn't going to be better than the original, then you shouldn't be re-writing it. You also have to build on the things you implement as the foundation.

BTW, I liked your comment about the girlfriend. Excellent point there too

[cubsball899]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

I get what you're saying about "it's hard" being a piss poor excuse... I agree. But I think rewriting code is easy. Rewriting code in a way that customers will like IS HARD. The problem is that no matter what EA does to the code, there's an element of the customer base that will be highly upset. With a customer base that plays the game for so many diverse reasons, has such a wide set of consumers with varied skill, and such a wide range of opinions about what's already there it's practically IMPOSSIBLE for EA to make us all happy. for example: If EA does something so players can't RC passes, I'm going to be upset. Not that I RC alot, but it's like a car jack. You never need one til your tire is flat. Removing the ability to user catch any ball would make me REALLY ANGRY. By that same token, many players that aren't as concerned with user catching might be happy about a change that makes the RC impossible. EA is walking a tight rope between giving us what we want and pissing us off royally. No matter what happens, someone on one side or the other will be upset. Suppose EA removes the throw/catch anytime passing machanic that simulates both the receiver and the QB sight adjusting the coverage and changing the route - people will be mad. Suppose the leave it in... people will be mad. Even with the things that we consider 'broken,' if there's a change there will seemingly be something 'broken' on the flip side of the coin. If they change the coverage, it's merely going to open up another way to attack the coverage. If it's blocking, it's going to open up another way to attack the blocking. It's a constant yin/yang effect. I don't envy EA for the position they are in... If it were merely a matter of rewriting code it would be simple. But it has to make people happy. I don't know about you but it's tough to keep ONE girlfriend happy... and she likes my 'old code.' I can't imagine pleasing 5 million. Later

hate to be the one who says this but it all boils down to the fact that EA is the only NFL football game on the market... if there is another game or even 2 then someone who doesn't like a feature will be able to buy a different game and enjoy their simulated NFL football.... there ARE DEFINITELY different types of gamers out there and 1 game will never make them all happy...