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khaliib · 03-31-2011, 05:26 PM

I hope the OP does not take this the wrong way, but this is a really bad, bad misinterpretation of what the gaming community defines as Realistic.

I know numbers and math is part of building a game, but we see evertime when such a method is thrown out in postings to justify a thought, it ALWAYS seem to point to a Gamer's dissatifaction of what's being played out before their eyes. Why, because video games are about "Perception" and the spectrum is so Broad from one gamer to the next of what looks real, expecially with the sport of football.

Example:
We see this agrument of numbers as it relates to 40 yrd times of a player draw constant debates and arguments year after year for football. What makes the water more murky, is the playout of the Dev's ratings formulas to create a differentiation in movement on the Game Engine they are applied to. The application of defining Speed in this instince is the easy part because the formula is given. Where this application seems to fall apart year after year is that there is no formula for Perception.

Gamers are not using the term "Realistic" as it pertains to Absolute definitions, that's impossible to recreate.
But the term "Realistic" is used to define the Overall Ecstatic football experience as they play out a DREAM.
That's right, a Dream.
When we are playing sports video games, we are simply playing out a Dream of "I would do this in this situation".
The problem is that there are not enough Situations produced for any given movement in today's football games. Thus, we pick up on the looping situation/movement much easier and pick it apart because our Peception is being limited.
No one wants Guardrails placed on them while playing out their Dream (ie Peception).

The power that Video situations has unlike Real life situations, is that it can be tweaked so that the End User can be immersed much more.
Football GM's, Coach' s and players use it all the time when they watch Film (video).
The difference is that in real life, a particular situation can only be expanded through verbalizating (linking) alternatives to that situation.

ie "if the Tackle does this, use a rip move, or if he does that, use a spin etc...
In a Video Game, those verbalizations can actually be injected on that one situation, giving the Perception that something different is happening, which in turn immerses the Gamer as they play.

Simply put, that 3 sec can be stretched with Video Games and still provide an immersive experience with multiple outcomes available to any one given situation.
Today's games probably have less than 3 alternatives to a given situation, which is why it doesn't look like what we see on TV.

It's all about immersion into the Gamer's Perception which requires multiple outcomes during any one situation.
Otherwise, the outcome to each situation is looped and predetermined, which is not Real.

This is were Line Play (gameplay for that matter) is suffering in football video games.

***I must state that numbers can be deceptive if used out to context.
If you take every snap Freeney played throughout the season, that AVG rush time would be much,much higher.
That is not his norm time for every snap he played.

jyoung · 03-31-2011, 05:27 PM

In APF 2K8, none of the 3-step drops work very well, but the 5-step drops buy you tons of time compared to how fast the routes are run in the game (much faster than Madden).

I have had online games of APF 2K8 where guys pass the ball 40 - 50 times on me and I only get 1 to 2 sacks, despite the fact that I have multiple gold and silver defensive linemen going against their generic OL.

If you look at the ratings of generic OL in APF 2K8, they are basically the equivalent of a backup OL in NFL 2K5, with the exception of APF 2K8's OL having jacked up stamina:

Quote:

Originally Posted by NFL 2K5


	Titans backup offensive tackle - Jason Matthews (49 overall) 53 pass block 63 run block 57 strength 54 speed 68 agility 58 stamina

Quote:

Originally Posted by APF 2K8


	Generic "pass block" offensive tackle 60 pass block 50 run block 60 strength 40 speed 45 agility 90 stamina

Here's a comparison of an elite NFL 2K5 DE to a gold DE in APF 2K8:

Quote:

Originally Posted by NFL 2K5


	Eagles DE Jevon Kearse (91 overall) 93 pass rush 86 run coverage 81 tackle 67 strength 88 speed 71 agility 70 stamina

Quote:

Originally Posted by APF 2K8


	CAP gold DE 90 pass rush 85 run coverage 88 tackle 78 strength 70 speed 70 agility 70 stamina

However, these numbers don't take into account that generic OL in APF 2K8 also get their ratings boosted by leadership, in addition to having a huge stamina advantage.

We still don't know what affect leadership has on the generics' ratings.

turftickler · 03-31-2011, 05:28 PM

People can't handle Backbreaker because it's too realistic. Problem solved

lol

ipman · 03-31-2011, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d11king


	I'm not sure how I feel about this article, but I do love it and it makes sense, I just hate the fact the video games have to dumb down certain things for the 'casual users' for example, the QB Vision. IMO the QB vision was the greatest 'feature' or whatever you call it Madden ever implemented. It was realistic and fun, on offense, if I have a player like Michael Vick my vision isn't going to be like Tom Brady's so I just can't magically throw an on-point pass to a wide receiver I'm not even looking at. And defensively, corners and safety's, more so safety's are watching the QB's eyes on defense, which is what the user would have been doing had this still been in effect. But Madden doesn't want realism in there game, this plays like the NFL version of NBA Jam and 'some' simulation so the 9-15 year olds enjoy it. So I agree that this would never make it into Madden, but until they make vast improvements, they've lost one customer and I'm sure they dont care. One person doesn't effect them, but it's quite a shame that Madden 2011 feels like Madden 2005 with updated rosters and jerseys and 2 new features.

Poor excuse real football should be in the game with the ability to adjust sliders just like nba2k11

slideez · 03-31-2011, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wEEman33


	In APF 2K8, none of the 3-step drops work very well, but the 5-step drops buy you tons of time compared to how fast the routes are run in the game (much faster than Madden). I have had online games of APF 2K8 where guys pass the ball 40 - 50 times on me and I only get 1 to 2 sacks, despite the fact that I have multiple gold and silver defensive linemen going against their generic OL. If you look at the ratings of generic OL in APF 2K8, they are basically the equivalent of a backup OL in NFL 2K5, with the exception of APF 2K8's OL having jacked up stamina: Here's a comparison of an elite NFL 2K5 DE to a gold DE in APF 2K8: However, these numbers don't take into account that generic OL in APF 2K8 also get their ratings boosted by leadership, in addition to having a huge stamina advantage. We still don't know what affect leadership has on the generics' ratings.

i just said that

bigsmallwood · 03-31-2011, 05:33 PM

Realistic line play has existed and succeeded in NFL Football games...it just hasn't worked in Madden yet (without sliders) .

catcatch22 · 03-31-2011, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wEEman33


	In APF 2K8, none of the 3-step drops work very well, but the 5-step drops buy you tons of time compared to how fast the routes are run in the game (much faster than Madden). I have had online games of APF 2K8 where guys pass the ball 40 - 50 times on me and I only get 1 to 2 sacks, despite the fact that I have multiple gold and silver defensive linemen going against their generic OL. If you look at the ratings of generic OL in APF 2K8, they are basically the equivalent of a backup OL in NFL 2K5, with the exception of APF 2K8's OL having jacked up stamina: Here's a comparison of an elite NFL 2K5 DE to a gold DE in APF 2K8: However, these numbers don't take into account that generic OL in APF 2K8 also get their ratings boosted by leadership, in addition to having a huge stamina advantage. We still don't know what affect leadership has on the generics' ratings.

You also neglected speed, the speed rushers in 2k8 football are deadly cause they get their pass rush animation moves sped up thus eliminating the long animations. So not only do they lack stamina like I said earlier but they don't have enough game speed to quickly speed through a block.

D-Hiatus · 03-31-2011, 05:49 PM

Good point made bruh....preciate the breakdown as well. This should help with a lot of gamers mis-understanding of the game....good read!

03-31-2011, 05:26 PM	#33
khaliib MVP OVR: 19 Join Date: Jan 2005 Blog Entries: 1	I hope the OP does not take this the wrong way, but this is a really bad, bad misinterpretation of what the gaming community defines as Realistic. I know numbers and math is part of building a game, but we see evertime when such a method is thrown out in postings to justify a thought, it ALWAYS seem to point to a Gamer's dissatifaction of what's being played out before their eyes. Why, because video games are about "Perception" and the spectrum is so Broad from one gamer to the next of what looks real, expecially with the sport of football. Example: We see this agrument of numbers as it relates to 40 yrd times of a player draw constant debates and arguments year after year for football. What makes the water more murky, is the playout of the Dev's ratings formulas to create a differentiation in movement on the Game Engine they are applied to. The application of defining Speed in this instince is the easy part because the formula is given. Where this application seems to fall apart year after year is that there is no formula for Perception. Gamers are not using the term "Realistic" as it pertains to Absolute definitions, that's impossible to recreate. But the term "Realistic" is used to define the Overall Ecstatic football experience as they play out a DREAM. That's right, a Dream. When we are playing sports video games, we are simply playing out a Dream of "I would do this in this situation". The problem is that there are not enough Situations produced for any given movement in today's football games. Thus, we pick up on the looping situation/movement much easier and pick it apart because our Peception is being limited. No one wants Guardrails placed on them while playing out their Dream (ie Peception). The power that Video situations has unlike Real life situations, is that it can be tweaked so that the End User can be immersed much more. Football GM's, Coach' s and players use it all the time when they watch Film (video). The difference is that in real life, a particular situation can only be expanded through verbalizating (linking) alternatives to that situation. ie "if the Tackle does this, use a rip move, or if he does that, use a spin etc... In a Video Game, those verbalizations can actually be injected on that one situation, giving the Perception that something different is happening, which in turn immerses the Gamer as they play. Simply put, that 3 sec can be stretched with Video Games and still provide an immersive experience with multiple outcomes available to any one given situation. Today's games probably have less than 3 alternatives to a given situation, which is why it doesn't look like what we see on TV. It's all about immersion into the Gamer's Perception which requires multiple outcomes during any one situation. Otherwise, the outcome to each situation is looped and predetermined, which is not Real. This is were Line Play (gameplay for that matter) is suffering in football video games. ***I must state that numbers can be deceptive if used out to context. If you take every snap Freeney played throughout the season, that AVG rush time would be much,much higher. That is not his norm time for every snap he played. unfriendlyghst likes this.

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03-31-2011, 05:28 PM	#35
turftickler Rookie OVR: 19 Join Date: Feb 2008 Blog Entries: 1	People can't handle Backbreaker because it's too realistic. Problem solved lol

03-31-2011, 05:33 PM	#38
bigsmallwood MVP OVR: 37 Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: NYC/NJ/L.A. Blog Entries: 33	Realistic line play has existed and succeeded in NFL Football games...it just hasn't worked in Madden yet (without sliders) .

03-31-2011, 05:49 PM	#40
D-Hiatus Rookie OVR: 0 Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Clinton, MD	Good point made bruh....preciate the breakdown as well. This should help with a lot of gamers mis-understanding of the game....good read!

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Why Line Play Will Never Be Realistic in Football Games