Would "Fog Of War" Be An Acceptable Addition To Madden's Default Passing View?

[da ThRONe]

I don't understand what the misconception is with the double tap.

Let me break it down

Pre-snap.

You read the defense and select the players you think will be open based on the defense. (Just like real QB's)

Post snap.

With tracking that was added to the game your QB will follow a target. High Awareness QB's will look away from there pre snap reads while low awareness QB's will stare down his true intended target.

If you guessed wrong and your initial pre-snap read is covered you will need to locate another target by pressing the players corresponding symbol. The speed inwhich a QB locates his secondary target is also awareness based.

I like the idea of having a designated passing button like the RT button for example. So at anytime your QB can throw the ball if he's pressured at your own risk. If the throw isn't near your player intention grounding.

I think people underestimate (especially if the defense plays better) the split seconds it takes to locate a WR, select him, and then press another button to throw it to him. It could mean the difference between a guy being open and a guy being covered or an easy throw becoming a moderately difficult throw. This is even with the High awareness guys who will locate targets with ease. So imagine what it would mean for the middle of the pack awareness QB's with middle of the pack accuracy.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by 4solo

t Passing Mechanic I think it should be a two button passing mechanic. One button to switch receivers (L1) and the other button to throw (X). Now this is the key. We all know passing routes are not just randomly thrown together. There is a science to the plays which is why a QB has to follow progression. So a pass play would go like this. Upon the completeion of the QB drop, the X would appear above the primary receiver. If this receiver is open simple press X to throw the pass. If this receiver is covered press L1 to change receivers. Now when L1 is press it puts the Icon over the reciever that is supposed to be your second read for that play. If that receiver is covered you press L1 again and it goes to your 3rd read and so on. This forces players to follow the natural progression of the play. The thing is every pass play progression would be different. Hot Routes The main change I would make to hot routes is that you would only get one per play. Let face it, NFL QB's are not sitting up there changing everybody routes at the line of scrimmage. A Hot Route is intended to counter a blitz or find a hole in the zone. If a hot route is called this would automatically make the hot routed receiver the primary receiver, unless the Hot Route is making a back stay in to block. Where as then, the play would follow natural passing progression. QB Awareness Awareness would effect all three aspects mentioned above. The Passing Mechanic would be affected by AWR in how long it would take for the icon to appear above the WR head when changing receivers. For high AWR QB's it would appear almost instantly, for lower AWR QB's it would appear slower. Again remember, a QB can still throw the ball if the icon is not present it would just result in an inaccurate pass. Pre-snap would be affected in the amount of pre-snap options a QB would have. Here are different areas I thought it could effect: -Pass Play art High AWR QB's would be able to see all receiver routes in pass play art. As AWR lowers then simply start to take away receiver routes starting with the 5th option then working backwards; with the lowest AWR QB's only able to see primary receiver routes.(or none at all if it you want to be extreme) Hot routes could be affected by this, as not being able to see full play art could cause you to call bad hot routes. Sending two receivers into the same area. -Selecting Primary Receivers AWR could also effect your ability to select a different primary receiver pre-snap b/c if your QB has low AWR( not able to see all route) you won't know all the routes of your receivers. Unless you just remember them yourself. (or you could restrict selecting a different primary receiver to only the routes shown pre-play) -Audibles High AWR QB's would have the full completement of audibles , and as AWR decreases start to take away audibles including line shifts. I think this would be a great way to sim AWR. Another area that I feel could be adressed with this system is Throwing on the Run. If you choose to scramble out of the pocket then the icon would automatically switch to the closest receiver on the side you are scrambling. Unless the Icon is already on a receiver to that side of the field. If that receiver is running in the opposite direction then after the WR and QB reaches a predetermined distance apart the above rule would take place. While scrambling or standing outside the tackle box you can only switch to receivers on that side of the field. This would eleminate running to one side of the field and throwing across you body. Well thats all I have for now. Ok guys rip it up. LOL (Sorry didn't know I had typed that much)

Interesting ideas. I like some of them, but there are a few I don't.

Progression
I'm cool with the one button pass mechanic, but I think that going through reads would be better on the Right Stick. Although there is a natural progression of every play, the QB is never tied to it. Based on the D, or just his intuition, he could look out of sequence if he wanted. Not being able to do this would be a mistake I think. Having a button go through reads in a set order is very reminiscent of Tecmo Bowl. Great game, but dated. Being able to only read in one direction, and having to cycle through every receiver again should you press the button too many times, isn't practical nor realistic, and to me, is the epitome of arcadey. One button passing with the Right Stick though is all good with me though.

Hot Routes
I don't like limiting the number of routes you can hot route. I'm not one of those players that audibles his entire team to a new play every down, but I still don't like the restriction. It may not be done often, but the QB can call as many Hots as he wants, and I feel we should be able to as well. What I think would be better is to add QB movement to the process so that when you audible or Hot route, the QB gets out from center and calls it out. When on the road he has to go to the players, and some have to come to him to hear the call. Then when he gets back under center you have to be set for a couple seconds in order to snap the ball. I would do this for Hot Routes, audibles, and line shifts, and I would make you only able to do one at a time. This way the amount of audibles is limited by how much time you can actually call in the allotted time, versus a predetermined constraint. It will make it more realistic, more aesthetically pleasing, but will still limit those that want to audible every single thing before every snap.

Your QB awareness idea is pretty sound with regards to the icon taking longer to show up for poor awareness, but still having the ability to pass anyway at the cost of accuracy. I like it.

The Awareness with regards to the Play Art idea is good too, if you mean that all of the art isn't available at the line for low awareness QB's, but is available when you pick. I think that's what you mean. Just want to clarify.

Not crazy about your throwing on the run idea. The potential is there for the game to change my intended target a split second before I press the button to throw to someone I have highlighted. It's rife with F me over possibilities lol.

Good ideas though. I'm onboard with most of them, pending the tweaks I mentioned.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by LiquorLogic

Changing the way the user has to read the difference really isn't the most important issue to me. The most important issue to me is that awareness, or lack there of,impacts the effectiveness of user controlled QBs. Right now, the only way for EA to make QBs with low awareness less effective than QBs with high awareness is to randomly make the QB (with low awareness) throw bad passes. That's not authentic. Also, even though the user wouldn't physically go through his progressions by pressing all four buttons, the user still visually goes through their progressions. It takes the user more time to look at four or five reads than it does to just look at the first read. With elite QBs, the user will have more time to go through progressions ( with their own eyes) because the icon of the corresponding receiver will be highlighted faster. The user will be able tap the button a second time to throw the ball sooner than a less intelligent QB.

Quote: Originally Posted by da ThRONe

I don't understand what the misconception is with the double tap. Let me break it down Pre-snap. You read the defense and select the players you think will be open based on the defense. (Just like real QB's) Post snap. With tracking that was added to the game your QB will follow a target. High Awareness QB's will look away from there pre snap reads while low awareness QB's will stare down his true intended target. If you guessed wrong and your initial pre-snap read is covered you will need to locate another target by pressing the players corresponding symbol. The speed inwhich a QB locates his secondary target is also awareness based. I like the idea of having a designated passing button like the RT button for example. So at anytime your QB can throw the ball if he's pressured at your own risk. If the throw isn't near your player intention grounding. I think people underestimate (especially if the defense plays better) the split seconds it takes to locate a WR, select him, and then press another button to throw it to him. It could mean the difference between a guy being open and a guy being covered or an easy throw becoming a moderately difficult throw. This is even with the High awareness guys who will locate targets with ease. So imagine what it would mean for the middle of the pack awareness QB's with middle of the pack accuracy.

I understand what both of you are saying. What I am saying is that you are not addressing what I feel are the most egregious issues with the passing game. To you guys, this might be a major change, because you are focusing on fixing a problem that you feel is major, but I feel is minuscule comparatively speaking, which is why this is just more of the same for me.

To put it another way. I can't be worried about simulating which QB reads faster than another, when there is nothing in the game that forces me to read anything in the first place. That's the chicken before the egg to me. I'll give an example.

Highlight Receiver 1 at snap. Snap the ball. Look at Rec 1. Is he open? No. Highlight Rec 2. Is he open? No. Highlight Rec 3. Is he open? No. Highlight Rec 4. Is he open? Yes. Throw him the ball. That's progression. That's reading.

This is double tap.

Highlight Rec 1 at the snap. Snap the ball. Look at Rec 1. Is he open? No. GOOD!! Keep him highlighted as I go through the progressions with my own eyes, because he's a decoy anyway. Who ever the hell comes open first, I'll double tap and throw. If they are stupid enough to leave Rec 1 open, I'll single tap and throw. This is NOT going through progressions. This is NOT reading anything. Again, you want a mechanic to simulate who reads progressions faster, without addressing the fact that there are no reads or progressions in the first place. This is why I say it changes next to nothing.

If I can play almost exactly the the same as i do now, then to me, what you are proposing is almost exactly the same as what we have now. It's that simple.

I'll take it, but it's almost a non event in my mind.

[da ThRONe]

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

I understand what both of you are saying. What I am saying is that you are not addressing what I feel are the most egregious issues with the passing game. To you guys, this might be a major change, because you are focusing on fixing a problem that I feel is minuscule comparatively speaking, which is why this is just more of the same. To put it another way. I can't be worried about simulating which QB reads faster than another, when there is nothing in the game that forces me to read anything in the first place. That's the chicken before the egg to me. If I can play almost exactly the the same as i do now, then to me, what you are proposing is almost exactly the same as what we have now. It's that simple. I'll take it, but it's almost a non event in my mind.

I guess we will agree to disagree

Forcing people to make pre-snap reads and penalizing QB's with poor awareness is very significant to me.

It seems like you have a problem with being able to see the whole field. This helps there as well just because you the player can locate the WR you want to throw to with "God view" the problem will be if your QB's has low awareness he won't be able to locate that target with the same ease. If the QB on the field can't find the target he can't throw an accurate pass. In the time it takes for you to locate that secondary target, one of two things are likely to happen

1) That target isn't as open anymore.

2) The defensive pass rush will get to you.

So being able to see pretty much all of the field will only be a huge advantage if you have the upper elite QB's in awareness.

This is how it's really done in football.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by da ThRONe

I guess we will agree to disagree Forcing people to make pre-snap reads and penalizing QB's with poor awareness is very significant to me. It seems like you have a problem with being able to see the whole field. This helps there as well just because you the player can locate the WR you want to throw to with "God view" the problem will be if your QB's has low awareness he won't be able to locate that target with the same ease. If the QB on the field can't find the target he can't throw an accurate pass. In the time it takes for you to locate that secondary target, one of two things are likely to happen 1) That target isn't as open anymore. 2) The defensive pass rush will get to you. So being able to see pretty much all of the field will only be a huge advantage if you have the upper elite QB's in awareness. This is how it's really done in football.

Seeing the whole field is a huge problem for me so that is definitely part of my issue.

I edited my previous post with an illustration of why I am ambivalent to double tap. That is the other part of my issue, but it is a part of the same issue as well.

I also strongly disagree that this is how it's done in Football. In Football, QB's have to look at receivers to know if they are open or not. They look at multiple receivers on each play and determine if they are open.

Until there is a mechanic that makes me do the same, as opposed to just highlighting any old receiver and staring him down the whole time until I want to throw, all the while KNOWING exactly what is happening everywhere else on the field, then any change will be little more than cosmetic.

[da ThRONe]

OK so instead of a double tap we should have a cycle tap system.

In real football progression is determined by the play anyways.

1st read is the Y WR is he open no press a button cycle to the next read.

2nd read slot WR is he open no press a button cycle to the next read

3rd read X WR is he open no press a button cycle to the next read

4th read is a check down to the back. Then maybe after a cycle if the play is still going on go to a double tap system.

Each play has reads in order.

This make sense and is true to football. Same princples still remain from a double tap as for as awareness effecting locating targets ,looking off vs staring at targets, pre-snap reads, etc. This forces players to go through a real progession and isnt just a one read then free style system. until you go through your cycle(no pun intended).

I think this is a great idea.

[lofeazy]

I voted no.


Seeing the whole field is one of the major problems.(number 1)Most of the things,people said in this 10 page thread are just not solving the issuess with the passing game are the blindside problems.

I know I am going to get flamed are lable a troll but other football game didn't have these problems.(BB camrea solved this problem.until they patch it.)

[LiquorLogic]

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

I understand what both of you are saying. What I am saying is that you are not addressing what I feel are the most egregious issues with the passing game. To you guys, this might be a major change, because you are focusing on fixing a problem that you feel is major, but I feel is minuscule comparatively speaking, which is why this is just more of the same for me. To put it another way. I can't be worried about simulating which QB reads faster than another, when there is nothing in the game that forces me to read anything in the first place. That's the chicken before the egg to me. I'll give an example. Highlight Receiver 1 at snap. Snap the ball. Look at Rec 1. Is he open? No. Highlight Rec 2. Is he open? No. Highlight Rec 3. Is he open? No. Highlight Rec 4. Is he open? Yes. Throw him the ball. That's progression. That's reading. This is double tap. Highlight Rec 1 at the snap. Snap the ball. Look at Rec 1. Is he open? No. GOOD!! Keep him highlighted as I go through the progressions with my own eyes, because he's a decoy anyway. Who ever the hell comes open first, I'll double tap and throw. If they are stupid enough to leave Rec 1 open, I'll single tap and throw. This is NOT going through progressions. This is NOT reading anything. Again, you want a mechanic to simulate who reads progressions faster, without addressing the fact that there are no reads or progressions in the first place. This is why I say it changes next to nothing. If I can play almost exactly the the same as i do now, then to me, what you are proposing is almost exactly the same as what we have now. It's that simple. I'll take it, but it's almost a non event in my mind.

Forcing the user to highlight receivers after the snap will make a huge difference. The speed at which you can highlight receivers definitely makes a difference. It doesn't change the way you, the user reads things, it just gives you less time (if you're playing with a low awareness QB) to find your receivers.

Essentially,with the double tap, a QB with a low awareness will give the user less time to scan the entire field. In some cases, with some QBs, the user won't have time to scan the entire field.