Why not get rid of potential?

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by tugglescott

Potential is not realistic. It is something that is subjective to each individual. In real football there isn't a limit on how good a player can become. If a player plays well, he is considered "good." If he plays poorly, his stock drops. This forms a majority of the decisions regarding their salary and trade values, etc. I think a realistic way to keep potential and incorporate it in the game is to have your scouts give their opinion on a players potential. This may or may not be accurate. There many examples of guys coming out of college being viewed as no more than a backup at best, then after consistently playing well, are viewed as one of the best players in the league. That's how real life works. I've seen people post saying that "You will have all 99-rated players if you don't have potential caps." That is not true. Every player can't play great and put up big numbers. If your players are valued at what actually happens on the field, then everything will balance itself out. Every game, every play, has winners and losers. Some guys won't put up the numbers, won't win games...and like in real life, their value will drop as a result.

FYI, here is an earlier thread where this topic has and is being already discussed.http://www.operationsports.com/forum...potential.html

For a short version of what I believe about potential is get rid of it like it is currently used and have it be based on the variables. (ie, coaches, coordinators, injuries, playing time, etc). The only thing stats/performance should dictate is streaks, tendencies and traits, with everything else, like player ratings, consistency and confidence, changing based on the variables but those changes are not set until seasons end.

I explained this in another thread but essentially if NE signed Wes Welker from Miami, his catch and route running ratings wouldn't immediately change but the range of those ratings would, based on the unique variables in NE as opposed to Miami. So through streaks in NE, Welker would be capable of performing those actions better in NE than in Miami but his actually base ratings for catch and route running, along with his consistency and confidence, wouldn't change until the end of the season. Also, the amount of these end of season adjustments would be based on general time under those team variables, playing time/snaps and player health/injuries.

So instead of assigning an arbitrary Potential grade, EA could assign player types and have each "type" capable of being 99 with certain ideal variables in place, ie, the perfect situation. However, that ideal/perfect situation would rarely ever occur given the inherent presence of injuries, coaching changes, limited playing time/starting spots and free agency.

This would realistically limit every player's NFL potential in Madden without EA having to directly script every player's future.

[PGaither84]

Just to mention, Wes Welker was really good in Miami, he just wasn't nationally known... didn't have a star QB throwing him the ball, and didn't play in a system that took advantage of his skill set when he was a Dolphin.

In a press conference or an interview or what ever in 2007 Bill Belichick said that he traded for Wes because when they played the Dolphins twice a year, NE couldn't cover Wes with two guys.

In 2007 people thought that Welker was just benefiting from playing with Randy Moss and Dante Stallworth as deep threats while he worked the slot. It turns out that while Wes has improved his game, he was a very talented underrated player. He was a "90 OVR" Wide Receiver all along, but only really NE saw it.

That is part of the problem. The default rosters of Madden 07 [which I happen to have on my PC] have Wes Welker as a 66 OVR player with 87 speed, 86 Acceleration, and 82 agility. Since then he has been given as high as 99 acceleration AND agility. Why? Did he get that mcuh better? No, he was underrated. He also has 65 Awareness and 70 Catch. You can argue awareness, but with the Patriots the very next year and since then he has been as reliable as they come. In the Super Bowl he was targeted 8 times and caught 7 of them. Sadly the 8th pass was that big 3rd down at the end of the game. That's football.

Yes, Potential is based on opinion, but the way the system work now is a LOT better than how it used to work. One of the things that needs to be done to improve the system is coaching. Some coaches fail to help a player reach their potential. Some systems fail to allow a player to be used to the best of his ability. That's why Head Coach had a good system where a player's OVR was actually calculated based on the system you ran. In Head Coach, Mike Martz was the OC of the 49ers. Frank Gore was only rated something like an 86 or worse.

Another problem is that EA [Josh Looman, adembroksi, etc] work on franchise mode but don't really explain what the heck is going on. EA really needs to come out with a "This is how and why franchise works" blog/article/in game tutorial. I told Josh about that at CD for Madden 11 and as far as I know, he ever wrote one. He said he would try and maybe he did. I don't know. I never found or saw one.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by PGaither84

Just to mention, Wes Welker was really good in Miami, he just wasn't nationally know... didn't have a start QB throwing him the ball, and didn't play in a system that took advantage of his skill set when he was a Dolphin. In a press conference or an interview or what ever in 2007 Bill Belichick said that he traded for Wes because when they played the Dolphins twice a year, NE couldn't cover Wes with two guys. In 2007 people thought that Welker was just benefiting from playing with Randy Moss and Dante Stallworth as deep threats while he worked the slot. It turns out that while Wes has improved his game, he was a very talented underrated player. He was a "90 OVR" Wide Receiver all along, but only really NE saw it. That is part of the problem. The default rosters of Madden 07 [which I happen to have on my PC] have Wes Welker as a 66 OVR player with 87 speed, 86 Acceleration, and 82 agility. Since then he has been given as high as 99 acceleration AND agility. Why? Did he get that mcuh better? No, he was underrated. He also has 65 Awareness and 70 Catch. You can argue awareness, but with the Patriots the very next year and since then he has been as reliable as they come. In the Super Bowl he was targeted 8 times and caught 7 of them. Sadly the 8th pass was that big 3rd down at the end of the game. That's football. Yes, Potential is based on opinion, but the way the system work now is a LOT better than how it used to work. One of the things that needs to be done to improve the system is coaching. Some coaches fail to help a player reach their potential. Some systems fail to allow a player to be used to the best of his ability. That's why Head Coach had a good system where a player's OVR was actually calculated based on the system you ran. In Head Coach, Mike Martz was the OC of the 49ers. Frank Gore was only rated something like an 86 or worse. Another problem is that EA [Josh Looman, adembroksi, etc] work on franchise mode but don't really explain what the heck is going on. EA really needs to come out with a "This is how and why franchise works" blog/article/in game tutorial. I told Josh about that at CD for Madden 11 and as far as I know, he ever wrote one. He said he would try and maybe he did. I don't know. I never found or saw one.

I completely agree and in the other thread, I stated that those variables, except for injuries, should ONLY effect trainable ratings, (catch, route running, etc) not physical ratings (speed, jump, etc).

Also, even though Welker may have possessed the same ability to run routes and catch in Miami as he does in NE, in Madden unlike real life, the ratings dictate a player's ability, instead of their abilities dictating their ratings. So, after EA hopefully bases every player's initial ratings on their real life data, the best way to represent the difference in Welker's displayed potential in NE versus in Miami going forward in Franchise mode, is through team variables effecting trainable ratings, consistency and confidence, injury effecting applicable ratings and performance/stats effecting streaks, tendencies and traits, imo.

[jyoung]

Potential rating is the single worst thing to have happened to Madden's franchise mode this generation.

If they're not going to take it out of the game completely, they should at least give us the option to turn the potential rating off during our franchises.

[PGaither84]

There needs to be a thumbs down option.

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

I think it would be fun to have both. Have scouts give guesses on the player like a real GM would get opinions on guys from the team's scouts. Have veterans be typically more easy to scout (use the games played or downs played as the "real" experience, not just years in the league). Then the GM/Head Coach decides which kid/player looks most likely to be a good fit for what the organization wants to do. Why only have an either/or situation? Why not put in better scouting, hidden and per-skill potential that could change due to injury/age, etc, multiple development curves and career arcs, and have that partially accurate information with which to make a decision?

I think for gamers liking the scouting aspect, that's great. I just think it's unnecessary. All a scout is doing is looking at the physical attributes and making an educated guess about the player's football IQ. This is already covered by the ratings.

I've seen arguments for hiding the ratings and I just haven't been convinced of the need. Coaches/scouts already know a player's "ratings". How fast, strong, ect a player is is not a secret. The unknowns are how that will transfer to the NFL/team and how coachable a player is.

[gzenius]

potential is impossible to replicate in a video game but you HAVE to have some type of potential rating. i just wish it was an actual numbered rating like nba2k rather then just having only 5 possible differences.

and it should be able to be improved or decline but not drastically. like if a 75 potential qb had an amazing season his potential could improve a few points or if a 99 potential player had a few average seasons it could go down.

but theres too many things that could factor into it for a video game i guess so the best way i think would just be a numbered rating

[macbranson]

The Potential rating just doesn't make any sense. On Madden, the potential rating actually affects how much players progress. Real players don't get better because they have a lot of potential. If that were the case, there would never be any bust #1 draft picks. They always have a ton of potential, so theoretically according to Madden, they will all get better every season even if they don't play well. In my franchise, Cam Newton (A potential) went up 8 points after a season where he threw like 15 TDs and 26 INTs. And then when you have players who play great, they never progress if they have low potential. The problem with the potential rating is the same problem with using the term potential regarding anything. IT MEANS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Whether someone has a lot of potential or none, it has no bearing on what they actually accomplish.

They do need to make some changes to the player rating system, though.
1. Player ratings should be adjusted every week, like they do with roster updates in real life
2. Add new positions, so player ratings can be more appropriate i.e. Nosetackle, 3-4 OLB, Interior Linebacker, Slot WR
3. Allow coaches and their systems to affect player ratings. Many times we'll see players suddenly improve or play poorly after being put in a different system.
4. Definitely keep DPP, it's great. Maybe build on it a little more.