Is it harder to make a football video game?

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

That's not true, and the former statement makes no such implication to make the latter true. That's like suggesting you cannot buy a run-down house and fix it up. You sure can. But it takes time and money. The same time and money (AKA resources) that I spoke about earlier.

Madden is a tear down; at best, it needs to be stripped down to the studs.

I've been to 2 CDs, for the 2009 & 2010 releases. What I came away with is, until they rebuild the game, EA can only paint, replace appliances & fixtures. They can't replace leaky pipes, out of date electricity, cracked foundation, etc. Unfortunately for me, I only came with suggestions for the pipes, electric & foundation. Maybe that's why I'm sitting here, jelly, that I'm not going back to Orlando.

Regarding the original question, I think it's harder because of the current foundation. Had EA been focusing on football specific issues from the beginning, they'd be well on their way. I remember when EA was saying true gang tackling wasn't possible. This was the year 2K had already implemented it, 2k4 or 5. So true gang tackling was difficult for EA. They've since had up to 9 player tackles. They weren't happy with it and went back to what they have now, at most, 2 defenders. They're still having difficulty with this essential football element.

2K definitely didn't have more resources than EA. I doubt the talent was that different. I'm guessing 2K had the advantage of seeing what EA did, avoiding mistakes and adding elements that EA hadn't. Their base coding may be just as stiff as EA's, but they probably started with something better suited for football. IMO, EA needs the opportunity to use a wrecking ball.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by tazdevil20

ALl of this crap about limited budget is a bunch of bull. The problem is the code. The programmers that worked on this game did a crappy job. It's plain and simple. There are other development shops that produce games 10x the complexity of madden and they do it better with fewer developers. Besides, I work on enterprise level software, and larger teams do not equal better products. It's all about the individuals working on the product. They have to have the knowledge of the sport, passion for writing code, and passion for the sport. Everyone wants to find "the excuse" so that they can feel better about the crap that's been churned out. The reality is, they are just that - EXCUSES. It's a bad product, for many reasons. There are a few guys there now that hopefully can change things around. It's going to take even more time.

The problem is both.

It does not have to be either/or.

The code/engine is limited, so it can't do some of that stuff you listed (or at least they haven't figured out how to get it to do that stuff), and part of it is time/budget. That 2007 game doesn't have the same engine.

That said, some of it is also just design choices. I'm not going to buy that the engine requires players to ignore hit boxes (morphing/DBs going literally through WR to pick off passes), but it's just a function of how they determine results and then have the engine play them out (imo, but that would be a reasonable explanation in my mind). Same with sliding, etc.

So yes, they need to improve the engine. They need to get more of the basics of football right, and it does take time/money to make these things happen.

Unless we know for a fact EA is providing this time/money - that reason (not an excuse because no one works for free, let alone a code wizard) should remain on the table.

Of course, they should do what they can each year to get closer. Fix that house up one room at a time if need be - and do each room very, very well.

Now, if the development house was indie - they could probably "take a year off" (if they can afford it) and revamp from the start. Heck, it might have happened already. But I doubt they'd convince EA of it and the license would forbid it because it would mean not releasing in a year.

[TombSong]

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

That's not true, and the former statement makes no such implication to make the latter true. That's like suggesting you cannot buy a run-down house and fix it up. You sure can. But it takes time and money. The same time and money (AKA resources) that I spoke about earlier. Look, I get that you want to be mad at EA, but let's not ignore common sense and rational thinking for the sake of it.

You lost me. Whats not true that I said and How come you didnt answer the question of how do we help the current dev team ? Also. I get that you want to defend EA, so lets not ignore common sense and rational thinking for the sake of it.

[Broncos86]

Quote: Originally Posted by TombSong

You lost me. Whats not true that I said and How come you didnt answer the question of how do we help the current dev team ? Also. I get that you want to defend EA, so lets not ignore common sense and rational thinking for the sake of it.

I'll rephrase it: Being stuck with the codebase doesn't mean the developers can't improve upon it. The game is comprised of various engines. We've already seen improvements, therefore the very idea that they cannot improve the game is asinine. Run-blocking is just one example. Tackling is another.

I'm not defending EA, and you aren't being witty in any facet. I'm telling you that there are certain realities, you might as well accept them, and then we can move on.

And to answer your question, we help by continuing to offer our suggestions and constructive critiques. Sorry, I didn't answer that earlier, I thought that went without saying.

[TombSong]

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

I'll rephrase it: Being stuck with the codebase doesn't mean the developers can't improve upon it. The game is comprised of various engines. We've already seen improvements, therefore the very idea that they cannot improve the game is asinine. Run-blocking is just one example. Tackling is another. I'm not defending EA, and you aren't being witty in any facet. I'm telling you that there are certain realities, you might as well accept them, and then we can move on. And to answer your question, we help by continuing to offer our suggestions and constructive critiques. Sorry, I didn't answer that earlier, I thought that went without saying.

Now show me where I said that the code cannot be improved. I said your comments implied it. Which is why I asked "How do we help the current team"

Now that you have answered the question, you have not presented anything new. We have already been "offering our suggestions and constructive/destructive critques" since 2006. Some of us are past the time of listening to excuses. Its long past time to see some results. If you like what you have in your hands today in Madden, then good for you. You are optimistic about Maddens future. Cool. Some of us after 7 years of BS are not. We don't want to hear excuses, we just want the fixed and improved. If you can't stomach our view, I don't know what to say for you. Its going to be expressed, its a certain reality. accept it and move on.

[Broncos86]

Quote: Originally Posted by TombSong

Now show me where I said that the code cannot be improved. I said your comments implied it. Which is why I asked "How do we help the current team"

My comments did not imply it, and I was correcting your statement that they did. Does that make sense to you now?

[kjcheezhead]

Quote: Originally Posted by tazdevil20

ALl of this crap about limited budget is a bunch of bull. The problem is the code. The programmers that worked on this game did a crappy job. It's plain and simple. There are other development shops that produce games 10x the complexity of madden and they do it better with fewer developers. Besides, I work on enterprise level software, and larger teams do not equal better products. It's all about the individuals working on the product. They have to have the knowledge of the sport, passion for writing code, and passion for the sport. Everyone wants to find "the excuse" so that they can feel better about the crap that's been churned out. The reality is, they are just that - EXCUSES. It's a bad product, for many reasons. There are a few guys there now that hopefully can change things around. It's going to take even more time.

What about what the team developed recently? Why was online franchise so bare bones? It wasn't the initial code, the mode worked fine it just wasn't finished. Is the sound quality bad because of the code? Commentary wasn't even added until Madden 09. PS2 Madden had better commentary and 2k5's commentary/crowd noise was flat out amazing.

Again, I can't blame these things on working off bad code, they weren't even implemented until 4 and 5 games into this generation.

That really leaves 2 other possibilities. Either the developers aren't talented or development is underfunded. Tombsong pointed out a laundry list of areas proving how talented 2ks developers were/are but look at ps2 madden had as well:

1. Lead blocking
2. qb vision
3. mini camps and position battles
4.fantasy challenge mode
5. tournament mode (4 and 8 man tournaments online)
6. madden challenges unlocking Madden cards
7. EA lockers allowing players to play a complete version of franchise mode online
8. deeper custom playbooks
9. A play creator

Now, I realize this list isn't as impressive as Tombsong's showing what "that other game" did, but considering it's made by the same company and devlopers that made Madden 12, it's significant. Again, many of the current Madden developers had a major role in creating these features.

So if I can't believe code is the reason the later version's features failing, and the developers have shown they are talented, then I have to think they are being underfunded. I'm not making excuses for EA's bad game, it's just the most logical reason I can find for how bad the game continues to be.

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by TombSong

The excuses are amazing for why EA has not produced a better football game than the game we are playing today. NO ONE is asking for a perfect football game and is not even a issue to be debated. We ARE asking for an improvement on what has already been done. Every game that's ever been made has people that like it and don't like it no matter how much praise or bad press it has gotten. What we do know is in 2007 there was a football game that: 1. Had multiple hit tackles where you could actually effect the tackle. 2. Had Defensive line calls that included stunts. 3. You could decide what kind of coverage look you wanted for your secondary. 4. You could shade your DB inside or outside and had 4 levels of depth you could play on the WR's 5. Making defensive adjustments was WAY easier. 6. Custom Playbooks was well done with LOTS of formations. 7. Animations and player to field ratio was off the chains. 8. Commentary was the best in sports(The OTHER game they make holds that title now) 9. You could send more than one man in motion on offense. 10. You could come out lined up in one formation and shift to another. 11. Could create your audibles on the fly in the play call screen. 12. Recorded your opponents play style so you could practice against it. 13. Wr's ran their routes beautifully and were aware of the sidelines and where they were on the field. 14. You RB did not go into Mario Running mode when you ran into the back of a lineman, He had the ability to push off and go around. 15. Man Covearge did not have to CHEAT to be good. DB's backpeddeled and turned their hips and displayed appropriate animations. 16. DB/WR's did not warp to make plays on the ball, and no super leaping. 17. When you called audibles, you could see the plays you were picking from on the fly. (unlike in madden where you jut better know what that play does when you set it in audibles) 18. Foot planting by the players was WAY better done than in Madden. That's just the stuff I can think up off the top of my head. If ALL that can be done in 2007 the is NO FREAKING REASON why EA continues to release these sad games they have produced since 2007. Madden games boil down to who knows how to game the game the best and who knows how to exploit the exploits the best. Football knowledge comes 2nd. When I see DB's in cover 3 with their backs to the LOS chasing a WR down the field, TURN and come back to defend a pass to a WR BEHIND him underneath, football just went out the window. Just field a team with high rated players learn the exploits on the madden sites and youtube and you will be top rank in no time. Then come in these forums and talk about how great a madden player you are and how much you love it, then get invited to the annual Tiburon field trip so they can show you their appreciation for not pointing out the fact a 6 year old game does stuff their game can't do.

This post right here is the best post on OS in 5 years. Hands down. This sums up how we all feel now. This thing should be framed and posted on the front page.

Don't forget about the challenge system, the ball physics, penalties and a real pocket where DEs got upfield. That other game had them all.

The excuses have all been used up now.