OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummings

[carnalnirvana]

i really dont believe the suits are the big problem with madden....the suits may be the problem with the game not taking bigger strides but what is on the disc isn't done right and done with little attention to detail.

the external forces argument is a scapegoat argument imo.

Ex. we have the ability to download custom gameplans this year, why is it we cannot assign it to a cpu coach/team. THAT IS A LACK OF VISION(not seeing that both online and offline players would like to play against custom gameplans), attention to detail

the playcalling can be fixed in 1 hour Ex.. just go in and change the frequency of plays with 2 TE for the pats SO THEY PLAY LIKE THE PATS... yet it is still the same for 3 years....THAT IS A LACK OF ATTENTION TO DETAIL/ NOT ACTUALLY KNOWING HOW THE PATS PLAY....

again why not make it " editable" so we can do it.....

this is not the suits fault.....this does not require any further budgeting/ hiring of staff

the guys making this game have no clue about football, they are tech guys who are very very good at being tech guys, this interview imo proves that , because years after leaving madden ian still does not get why madden fails

[infemous]

Quote: Originally Posted by carnalnirvana

i really dont believe the suits are the big problem with madden....the suits may be the problem with the game not taking bigger strides but what is on the disc isn't done right and done with little attention to detail. the external forces argument is a scapegoat argument imo. Ex. we have the ability to download custom gameplans this year, why is it we cannot assign it to a cpu coach/team. THAT IS A LACK OF VISION(not seeing that both online and offline players would like to play against custom gameplans), attention to detail the playcalling can be fixed in 1 hour Ex.. just go in and change the frequency of plays with 2 TE for the pats SO THEY PLAY LIKE THE PATS... yet it is still the same for 3 years....THAT IS A LACK OF ATTENTION TO DETAIL/ NOT ACTUALLY KNOWING HOW THE PATS PLAY.... again why not make it " editable" so we can do it..... this is not the suits fault.....this does not require any further budgeting/ hiring of staff the guys making this game have no clue about football, they are tech guys who are very very good at being tech guys, this interview imo proves that , because years after leaving madden ian still does not get why madden fails

At risk of sounding like a 'basher' but I don't think they are even very good as just 'tech guys' because physics still don't exist and once they introduced their take on RTP it led to some sloppy interactions (which I didn't mind, but whatever). Also, if you just take a look at the bugs/glitches thread, you will be absolutely amazed at what happens. If that is unappealing (I try and avoid it) just look at my previous post with regards to how messy the code is.

I just don't think that this team can get it done if they're building on the same code. Why or how they are doing is beyond me, but whoever input the code initially did a terrible job, and the current guys are doing a terrible job of testing to see what the effects of their changes are.

Anyone with a brain would identify where the mess stems from (the bad original code) and push to scrap it. If the suits don't allow you, be vocal, force pressure, make it obvious what the root of the issue is and do what you can to change it. I have a hard time believing the 'suits' are saying there is no way we will ever allow you to fix what is holding this game back from being good and maximising profits and improving customer/company relations...

I agree with what you said above with regards to 'lack of vision'. It trickles from standard design decisions to overarching development efficiency and even to marketing. I don't know who thinks that 'Owner Mode is BACK' is better for marketing a game than 'Owner Mode is MUCH IMPROVED WITH: bla bla bla'

It's common sense that seems to be completely missing at EA Tiburon, everywhere.

[roadman]

So, AJ goes off on a rant in recent past and it's ok, what he said was what we all thought all along.

Ian says things of a similar nature and he doesn't know football?

To me, not much difference between what AJ stated and the Ian interview, one was stated more loudly than the other.

I do agree with Carnival when he said, what's on the disk is on the disk, and that goes back to GiantBlue's statement about the programming talent.

[MissionMaximus]

Quote: Originally Posted by infemous

Wow. That really is surprising and a horrible course of events. I am the same with regards, I am most looking forward to BF on next gen and have given them too much money from Madden (bought every Madden since 10 on pre order, except 25, which I will probably buy on next gen) and loved Skate 2 and sometimes still play that. I have felt the issue with EA Sports game, which is lost in the search for licenses, is individuality. I remember on PES back on PS2 certain players just FELT different and this is my biggest gripe with FIFA. I can't really enjoy FIFA when every player is ambidextrous and defensive AI is so bad. Additionally, I am astounded at the complete dearth of tactical options, which makes remedying issues of bad AI almost impossible. With Madden, there is no alternative and my need for a fix as NFL football became my number 1 sport about 5/6 years ago is tough to deny, while with football/soccer, my disillusionment with the overall sport has helped wean me off of the accompanying games as the games' qualities have lowered/plateaued. I'm conciously trying to get back into the sport but its hard when you see the sorts of money being recklessly thrown around and little concern for parity. Its a very alienating sport now, which it wasn't just 10 years ago... Money has ruined it for me in a way, but it is still such a beautiful sport. What seems to be the case in real life football seems to be directly affecting the games that recreate it, and thats very sad. EA buying up licenses is a really shady move that I think should be discouraged by governing bodies, as it should be by law. It also seems to show that EA are plateauing with FIFA, too scared to make the changes that will revolutionise or continue to really progress the game for fear of alienating the MUT markets, so they flex financial muscle to kill competition instead of rising to it. I can't say it enough, but all that is needed to be a popular, mass selling sports game, is to do your darndest every year to recreate everything that happens on and off the field and put it into your game. PS. FIFA's career mode is such a joke that I can't believe people genuinely try to play it. It makes Madden's CCM, with bugs and everything, look like Football Manager.

Yeah, me too, for all my talk, I still buy it hoping to get my fix. I guess it's sort of like an addict just looking for my fix, then after I buy another one and play a few games I just set there and say this sucks, there has to be something better than this.
"My name is MissionMaximus and I'm a NFL Addict and Madden is my drug of choice."

Quote: Originally Posted by TheBuddyHobbs

I always liked Ian. I hope somehow he can become a lead designer of a next gen football game. That would be very interesting.

I wonder with the amount EA pays for the exclusive license it has to cut into the bottom line for EA, so in turn they demand for ways to increase it. If that means cutting corners production costs etc... Bottom line is what EA understands that's why there so much turnover at Tiburon.
With the constant changeover it's so hard to take a definitive direction when everyone is pulling in different directions.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

So, AJ goes off on a rant in recent past and it's ok, what he said was what we all thought all along. Ian says things of a similar nature and he doesn't know football? To me, not much difference between what AJ stated and the Ian interview, one was stated more loudly than the other. I do agree with Carnival when he said, what's on the disk is on the disk, and that goes back to GiantBlue's statement about the programming talent.

Kind of surprised you would equate the two seeing as Ian clearly held a higher position than AJ and had a direct part in the direction of the overall game, on a level AJ never did. However since you bring up the comparison, I will mention something about it. I can check the posts from before AJ went to Tiburon, during and after he left/rant in which his intent and perspective never seem to waiver, Madden should represent NFL football as well as any game before it, including NFL2k. Now I compare that to Ian's posts, there is no such consistency, some things he is stating in that interview are completely contradictory to other things he stated when actually on Madden.

No suit or marketing department, that I'm aware of, forced Ian to post on OS in his free time, among other places, things like, paraphrasing "NBA2k, that game is sim to the inth degree, Madden shouldn't go that far", "realistic penalties would make a Madden game too long", "the longer animations in 2k are the most fluid and realistic looking but we think the User control of shorter quicker branching animations is better", "AI for players on a User controlled team should NOT be the same as the AI for players on a CPU team", "Madden shouldn't try to be any other game it should just be the best Madden it can be", etc, on and on. Ian wasn't just carrying Tiburon's water back then, he was filling the buckets, was a shot caller, an integral part in why the game continued to be what it is under his tenure.

I'm not riffing at you Road, just this notion that Ian was somehow "down with the struggle" or "our inside man" when he was at Tiburon. Sure he was one of, if not the first Madden devs to really interact with the Madden community in a personally accessible way, which I commend him for. Ironically it's those interactions that showed a different perspective at that time than the one expressed in that interview.

Also, not Roadman but for the context challenged, I don't hate Ian as a person, think he is evil or any such nonsense as that. Even though I'm passionate about NFL gaming and would like to be able to enjoy it again some day, it's just a vice for me, whereas making this game was at the time Ian's lively hood and I am happy that he was able to use that time as a spring board into other things. What I'm pointing out is the obvious differences in the perspective expressed when Ian worked on Madden and in that interview.

[roadman]

Big, I know you are not riffing on me, just I don't see it that way.

I'm in the employment field and you don't bad mouth your present employer to co-workers, much less the media. Also, you defend your current employer in the media as well. ALso, you mention some of his anti-sim post, but he also had some sim posts here as well. Historically, I used to bring this up, but after Madden 10 came out, he posted a list of 25 things that OS posters wanted in the game and he stated that 90% of our suggestions were in the game. I do give him some credit from turning 10 into a more sim than the past, but then, 11 was not a good game and he explains why.

Once you are no longer a employee, and you are clear of any legal ramifications, the gloves can come off at your discreation and you feel more able to voice your opinion.

I expect there to be a difference of Ian the employee vs Ian the consumer.

Not trying to change your opinion on the matter.

Just stating there wasn't much different between the statements of AJ and Ian, when it all boils down to it.

Also, to note, Ian was the one that hired AJ.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

Big, I know you are not riffing on me, just I don't see it that way. I'm in the employment field and you don't bad mouth your present employer to co-workers, much less the media. Also, you defend your current employer in the media as well. Once you are no longer a employee, and you are clear of any legal ramifications, the gloves can come off at your discreation and you feel more able to voice your opinion. I expect there to be a difference of Ian the employee vs Ian the consumer. Not trying to change your opinion on the matter. Just stating there wasn't much different between the statements of AJ and Ian, when it all boils down to it. Also, to note, Ian was the one that hired AJ.

But Road in much of that interview the things Ian is being critical of now, he was responsible for and in control of then. That's like me house sitting for a friend on vacation, doing a poor job of watering the plants, caring for their pets, lawn and keeping the house clean, then being critical of their housekeeping of the same home years later.

[MissionMaximus]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

No suit or marketing department, that I'm aware of, forced Ian to post on OS in his free time, among other places, things like, paraphrasing "NBA2k, that game is sim to the inth degree, Madden shouldn't go that far", "realistic penalties would make a Madden game too long", "the longer animations in 2k are the most fluid and realistic looking but we think the User control of shorter quicker branching animations is better", "AI for players on a User controlled team should NOT be the same as the AI for players on a CPU team", "Madden shouldn't try to be any other game it should just be the best Madden it can be", etc, on and on. Ian wasn't just carrying Tiburon's water back then, he was filling the buckets, was a shot caller, an integral part in why the game continued to be what it is under his tenure.

That's Madden to a tee. It's all about Head to Head and stick skills. Madden Nation doesn't want control taking away from their stick skills. Meaning nano blitzes, money plays, 5 minute quarters and no penalties. They don't want better animations dictating play they want stick skills with super-duper combos where you can break out of 5 men gang tackles with stick skills. The AI should be dumb as hell so that stick skills are all that matter. Hell with strategy it's about stick skills son. Let's make all players play the same regardless who it is or what their ratings are it's about...stick skills.
NBA2K and the Show.....NAWWW that's too realistic