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Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion Thread 2015

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Old 04-29-2015, 10:34 PM   #1
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Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion Thread 2015

Hello my fellow Os'ers! Happy MLB The Show-ing!

Now seems as good a time as any to break the bottle over the ship and launch the 2015 Classic Pitching questions and discussion thread. Like anything that happens on a once per year basis, this is a thread where you can stress about your ultimate failures as a person!

And also your favorite tips, tricks and analysis of the Classic Pitching interface.

For those of you that aren't familiar with this thead in years past, this is generally a thread where we discuss far more than sliders. Hardly any, come to think of it. Think philosophy, man! Like real life meta-physics! Oh, and also how Michael Pineda can be a real buzz-kill to control except when in 2014 he suddenly dominated the world in every category that ever mattered in the history of everything.

Unfortunately, last year's thread seems to be gone with the wind thanks to a site error, so just know this is a safe place for all things Classic pitching.

The next post will be reserved for anything I can dig up that may be useful to people new to this method of pitching.
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Old 04-29-2015, 10:34 PM   #2
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Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion Thread 2015

Here's some advice on how the catcher's hand signals work when pitching without the API (credit to SpritePuck for the write up and KingV2K3 for condensing it):

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingV2k3
I took SpritePuck's Catcher's Sign Tutorial Post and condensed it down to a one sheet for quick / easy reference that is suitable for copy / past / print:

Catching signs for calling pitches:
1 finger = X
2 fingers = O
3 fingers = △
4 fingers = ▢
* Flashed 4 = R1
** closed clenched fist = hard fastball (only one I am not 100% sure of)

Locations:
Last place touched is side wanted.
Knee is out of zone.
Thigh is in the zone.

Listed in order of most occurring:

Sign held long and fades down is standard pitch call.
Could be thrown anywhere.

Quick sign
Up in the zone. Top third of strike zone or out of zone up.
*all pitches wanted up in the zone do not get a quick sign but all quick signs are wanted up in the zone.
The more specific, rare signs:

Sign with a non glove leg squeeze (move) in toward hand: means pitch must be started out of zone and break back in
He squeezes his legs in but non glove leg moves in way more than glove side

Sign then thigh: in zone thigh side that is tapped
(again could mean start out of zone to get pitch in zone on side called for)

Sign then knee then same side thigh: start out of zone and break back in on side tapped
(like a backdoor slider)

Sign then thigh then other thigh: break across the plate but stay in zone toward *second indication
* the second thigh he tapped

Sign then knee then opposite thigh: start out of zone and break in toward thigh tap side

Sign then knee: out of zone knee side (a chase pitch)

Sign thigh then knee: break out of zone side of last thigh before knee


@SpritePuck

I have to thank you again, for such a game altering and detailed overview!

OS HOF worthy, IMHO...


Last edited by Heroesandvillains; 05-02-2015 at 11:09 PM.
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Old 04-29-2015, 11:48 PM   #3
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Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion Thread 2015

People have argued with me that in classic pitching when one releases x has no influences on the velocity and location. I discovered in practice pitching mode that for me learning when to release was key. That the release point is more important than a few rating points one way or the other. I try to release x right before that max velocity slight controller vibration, meaning I never feel it vibrate. This is easy once you practice with your pitching staff. Most pitchers in the windup tap the rubber with the drive foot (back foot, the right foot for righties) right about at the moment x should be released if not wanting max velocity vibration. From the stretch it is right before the kick foot touches down but a few can land the kick foot without vibration, for them it is right on or before the land for best accuracy on release.

Under throwing and over throwing both affect location quite a bit. All pitching motions are different so it does vary some. For me personally some are much easier to time.*Again I have had people argue that I am wrong about this but honestly I swear when x is released is the single handed most import part of classic pitching. (Besides understanding counts and where pitch types must be placed but that is such basic baseball knowledge, I assume everyone knows never throw a high curve or slider unless you feel fans need more souvenirs.)

Thus, I pitch way better with certain players. An example is the Cubs Dallas Beeler he is a 65 but I can out pitch the whole staff using him because I can place pitches wherever I want consitently. To the point that after April and him only giving up 1 run and being used as often as his energy would allow, I traded him off. It was just too unrealistic. I do not think he is glitched, I just think his windup was too easy for me to use. Point is that they are all different. Another example is I get shelled using Price as I constantly overthrow pitches.*Only saving grace is he has good enough stuff that even when they knock the crap out of it sometimes it is a fly ball only.

Here is my expirience and maybe it is all in my head but I throw literally hundreds of each pitch type with my staff in practice mode. Use the pitch aiming mode, ignore the score and location. Throw all one type pitch to one location until you have it. Then the next type pitch. Just start the mode over and over ignore negative scores for throwing wrong pitch and missing the catchers target. I keep spread sheets on how affective (consistent I am) with each of my pitchers. Plus, keep excel sheets on what pitches get hit in what count from who in my staff. The game allows video saves for review. I approach pitching in this game with my whole staff like Maddux did (Study wise, NOT on the mound wise! On the mound, I found for me, I need pitch as close to how the actual pitcher does as I can for the best results) .
If Holiday hits a 1-2 breaking ball in the gap off me with Lester on the mound. He will never see that pitch in that location in that count ever again! I also keep a seperate list for day and night and home games. As the ball seems to react different in day and night games (though this could just be in my head and because of the commentary I believe it) but my record is far better in day games. All these numbers I study when forced because of things like school to not play The Show. Knowing my schedule and upcoming lineups, I can plan a pitching approach before going into a game. (not saying this is needed, I am aware I am obsessive and also for some odd reason can memorise real and video game stats and numbers) But if The Show is approached as one would an actual start or manager does it becomes the best expierience ever. Since I can not actually play or manage baseball this is the greatest gift I have ever been given!

I have discovered the following regardless of pitcher though ratings can make this worse or subdue it.....

- When over thrown the 2seamer can literally go anywhere. Mostly with very bad results!

- The 4seamer tends to go up.

- Sinkers, Splitters, 12-6 Curves, some changeups and most anything primarily breaking down end up in the dirt. THOUGH IF WAY OVER THROWN CAN END UP RIGHT DOWN THE MIDDLE!!!! <---- which is bad

- Standard breaking balls like Sliders and Curves besides the 12-6 over exagirate the break.
This also can apply to Cutters and Running Fastballs (which are technically a 2seamer) but react slightly different to being over thrown. Over throwing the RF is no where near as disasterous as overthrowing the standard 2SFB.

- Never pitched with a knuckler so I have no clue what happens when it is over thrown. As far as I know Dickey is only active pitcher who throws it. In the past I used Wakkefield but the game has changed a lot since those days pitching wise. (FOR THE BETTER!)

Under throwing pitches seems less predictable and more dependent on the pitcher. Though I just maybe do not under throw very often or possibly it just takes some speed off. Maybe someone else can confirm this.

The only pitch I ever throw with max velocity on a somewhat regular bases (mostly for strikeouts or with closers) is high fastballs trying to get someone to chase as they tend to "rise" out of the zone later when slightly overthrown. Though if greatly overthrown it is way high!
Sometimes an occasional sweeping curve, slurve (though I hate the pitch), cutter or slider for same reason. To get someone to chase as it breaks out of the zone.

If you like watching big flies throw the 2seamer max velocity or over and it sometimes (in my opinion and by my charts about 25% of the time) ends up center plate then someplace in the stands.*It IS my favourite pitch but must be used in the correct location and with perfect release or just do not throw it. In game it is not the same as the sinker or running fastball when it comes to release timing, though in real life I suspect it is much more the same.

I think this is all pretty much true to real pitching. When a pitcher overthrows a curve it bounces or worse yet does not break. A fastball hits the backstop as it rises over the catchers mitt and so on. I have only ever played softball, so I am speculating and going off what experts write and by observing the game as a huge fan of pitching.

Hero,
Can you can confirm release point matters? Or am I bat arse crazy?
It is sometimes hard to know for sure as classic does allow for a bad pitch do to player ratings. But when taking someone with high control on a certain pitch into practice I only miss my location (meaning miss by a lot, not just slightly off) when my release is way early or way late. Meaning long before max velocity or at max or sometime after.

By the way I use Armor's sliders and play on All Star if that matters.

Last edited by SpritePuck; 04-29-2015 at 11:56 PM.
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Old 04-30-2015, 12:21 AM   #4
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Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion Thread 2015

Alright, coming from Armor's Slider discussion (which are absolutely great for anyone unaware of them) I have tested the claim that left stick is influencing pitches, and I do believe more testing needs to be done with other people. For people flat out saying NO, I would ask them to reserve judgement. This is what I did.

I drew a chart of a strike zone with 4 quadrants and after every pitch I used R2 and marked down where it was in relation to the strike zone. I threw all pitches down the middle and held the stick either left at 9 o'clock, right at 3 o'clock, or did not hold the left stick at all.

I took Kyle Lohse of the Brewers and initially threw 20 four-seam fastballs straight down the middle without touching the left stick. I then threw 20 and as soon as I tapped the pitch button the second time to begin delivery, I held the left stick at the 9 o'clock position throughout the entire delivery. With the four-seam fastball I noticed very little difference. However, I then moved on to the slider.

With the slider I threw 30 pitches with each method above. Keep in mind Lohse is a righty and obviously his slider breaks to the left side of the plate. These were my results:

No left stick used - 19 on the left half of the plate, 11 on the right.

Left stick held to the left (9 o'clock) - 28 on the left half of the plate, 2 on the right (after reading how skewed this was I even through 10 more with this method and 9 of the 10 were to the left side of the plate).

Left stick held to the right (3 o'clock) - 24 on the left half of the plate, 6 on the right.

After all that, I must say I am not sure what is going on, but that second test with over 90% and even the third test being considerably higher than the control, I was surprised. What I believe may be happening is that after the pitch button is pressed the second time, there is a window where the game reads how long you hold the button for (it eventually rumbles the controller once you hold it down long enough). During that window, the game is obviously reading input from at the very least the X button. Possibly this input window is also accepting readings from the stick. I believe that because even holding the stick in the opposite direction, more times than not I still got more break on the ball, which is similar to what happens when you hold down X.

To be 100% honest, I am personally still on the fence about this. The sample size is too small and being a game programmer myself, trying to surmise why the left stick would ever be passing input (joystick input in my experience has always been much different than a button or key press), yet not triggering the rumble call seems extremely unlikely to me. On the flip side of that, I have been involved in projects where a lot of quirky code is "hanging around", and The Show is a long-running project that I am sure has it's share of this.

Anyone discounting this as simply BS because it is not "sim" in their opinion, it is easy for me to imagine a programmer working on some type of pitching feature where the left stick (much like they integrated it into hitting) has an impact on arm action, release point, or something else pitching related. That feature could be pulled and not entirely cleaned up, worked on in a separate development branch and accidentally merged over, or countless other cases where something like that could absolutely exist. Not to mention their are several other pitching methods (I am unfamiliar with them as I have used classic for years now), but it is even possible a method or code associated with them is being called or executed inadvertently in classic.

I will reiterate, I am not saying this 100% exists, but I have spent a couple of hours on it and the results have intrigued me more than they have made me simply forget about it. I would be extremely interested in other people's results and I would encourage them to focus on breaking pitches, as I saw a distinct different between a breaking pitch vs non-breaking pitch.
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Old 04-30-2015, 12:39 AM   #5
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Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion Thread 2015

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpritePuck
The only pitch I ever throw with max velocity on a somewhat regular bases (mostly for strikeouts or with closers) is high fastballs trying to get someone to chase as they tend to "rise" out of the zone later when slightly overthrown. Though if greatly overthrown it is way high!
I also have noticed/used this. If I am ahead in a count and feel a high/inside fastball is the pitch I need to throw, I will purposely overthrow it to get more velocity and rise on it. I do not keep charts, but personally I do feel like it changes the way the location of the pitch.

Honestly, without inside knowledge as to how the pitching actually works we may not ever know. I feel like somewhere I read a tip claiming that tapping a pitch gives best chance for high accuracy and holding increases velocity, but lessens control. It makes sense that when you throw a pitch there is some randomness involved (I think we can all agree on that). Tapping would then lessen the weight of this randomness and holding it down would increase it. I would also assume that all pitches have a sort of "bad/unwanted movement" associated with them, for example a slider over-breaking or a fastball rising (which is what in a bad situation you do not want these pitches to do).

I hope more people look into this and maybe we can more clearly understand exactly what is going on, if anything at all.
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Old 04-30-2015, 06:07 AM   #6
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Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion Thread 2015

Hanoble,

I too read tapping X gets best results.. Somewhere on the web, have no clue where sadly.

However, with a ton of practice. It to me seems that tapping it underthrows pitches and decreases acuracy. From personal experience i feel their is a sweet spot in the release. Though since there is the rating caused inconsitancy in pitching it is not possible to be certain.

I agree 100% that you can over throw them just not sure if can be under thrown though I think they can be. Also I agree that there is a rating caused random misses depending on pitcher used (making the game better but it harder to test what results release timing has). Last I do wish that The Show actually explained if release timing has affect. The fact that there is a vibration if you keep X held tells me there is a difference in when you release it. Plus the vibration point is different depending on pitching motion. Yet, it is somewhat speculation that the vibration means I can under throw them as well as over throw them. Issue is did the pitcher totally miss because I released too early or was it a random bad pitch? If holding it longer increases velocity, which in real life would cause location issues, then I would think releasing too early would with breaking pitches cause location issues. Under throwing a curve would cause issues, not as bad as over throwing it though. Thing is this is more based on baseball knowledge for me than anything and what they programmed in is what matters, which I obviously do not know.

As far as late release, it is easier to test. Take someone who throws a huge breaking ball. Example is Jon Lester and the sweeping curve. Turn ball markers back on, so you know exactly where you aimed. In practice mode if you always over throw it, (hold X well past the vibration point) he always misses and misses by a lot. Just tapping he sometimes hits his spot. - Sadly in practice there is no replay to see if the break changes do to release timing. But by timing my release just before when I expect vibration he seems to be most accurate. Issue is since he sometimes misses do to attributes, it is hard to be certain as to exactly when to release.

The Game is brilliant and I agree about how great those sliders are!

I still think there is a sweet spot in release timing more than a tap but before vibration occurs.

Look forward to all opinions and expieriances with this and left stick pitch movement. Just because I did not seem to expierience it does not mean it is not in the programming.

Last thought I have on this is that some motions are better for control. This may be in my head. This may also be related to release timing. If release timing matters like I beleive this would somewhat explain why if I change someone like Harren to say Bumgarner's pitching motion (it is odd looking but easy to use) without touching attributes, I sudenly can hit my spots. Without changing it, I honestly am all over the place with Harren and can not use him worth a dang. Now, I never change rosters or edit players for franchise this was just practice and to see if motion had an affect. It seems to, but it also maybe just affects timing. Or maybe I am just whacky and it is as Yogi said, "Baseball is ninety percent mental and the other half is physical."
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Old 04-30-2015, 06:18 AM   #7
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Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion Thread 2015

One other thing in placing your pitch picking spot vibration is bad, telling you it is placed out of zone. Vibration when hitting is nerves in big situations and bad. Thus I would think vibration in pitch release is a flashing Warning Danger Wil Robinson, you have gone too far! Typically in life when there is a too far, there is also a not far enough. All this reasoning makes me think tapping is not best and vibration is in the least a warning that you are about to make a mistake. If it was just tapping then why not have any amount of hold cause the vibration?

I think I have over thought all this and will just stick with what works for me, which is releasing X right as drive foot taps rubber and just before controller vibrates. I have Jon Lester poised after almost 90 games to win the NL Cy Young, so as the saying goes, if it ain't broke...

Even if it is just in my head, well superstition and pitching rituals are a genuine part of baseball. Was it in Bull Durham the kid slipped on panties to keep his pitches in the zone... I need to get Lester some lacy undershorts! I bet he looks good in black :P

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Old 04-30-2015, 11:39 AM   #8
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Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion Thread 2015

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpritePuck
People have argued with me that in classic pitching when one releases x has no influences on the velocity and location. I discovered in practice pitching mode that for me learning when to release was key. That the release point is more important than a few rating points one way or the other. I try to release x right before that max velocity slight controller vibration, meaning I never feel it vibrate. This is easy once you practice with your pitching staff. Most pitchers in the windup tap the rubber with the drive foot (back foot, the right foot for righties) right about at the moment x should be released if not wanting max velocity vibration. From the stretch it is right before the kick foot touches down but a few can land the kick foot without vibration, for them it is right on or before the land for best accuracy on release.

Under throwing and over throwing both affect location quite a bit. All pitching motions are different so it does vary some. For me personally some are much easier to time.*Again I have had people argue that I am wrong about this but honestly I swear when x is released is the single handed most import part of classic pitching. (Besides understanding counts and where pitch types must be placed but that is such basic baseball knowledge, I assume everyone knows never throw a high curve or slider unless you feel fans need more souvenirs.)

Thus, I pitch way better with certain players. An example is the Cubs Dallas Beeler he is a 65 but I can out pitch the whole staff using him because I can place pitches wherever I want consitently. To the point that after April and him only giving up 1 run and being used as often as his energy would allow, I traded him off. It was just too unrealistic. I do not think he is glitched, I just think his windup was too easy for me to use. Point is that they are all different. Another example is I get shelled using Price as I constantly overthrow pitches.*Only saving grace is he has good enough stuff that even when they knock the crap out of it sometimes it is a fly ball only.

Here is my expirience and maybe it is all in my head but I throw literally hundreds of each pitch type with my staff in practice mode. Use the pitch aiming mode, ignore the score and location. Throw all one type pitch to one location until you have it. Then the next type pitch. Just start the mode over and over ignore negative scores for throwing wrong pitch and missing the catchers target. I keep spread sheets on how affective (consistent I am) with each of my pitchers. Plus, keep excel sheets on what pitches get hit in what count from who in my staff. The game allows video saves for review. I approach pitching in this game with my whole staff like Maddux did (Study wise, NOT on the mound wise! On the mound, I found for me, I need pitch as close to how the actual pitcher does as I can for the best results) .
If Holiday hits a 1-2 breaking ball in the gap off me with Lester on the mound. He will never see that pitch in that location in that count ever again! I also keep a seperate list for day and night and home games. As the ball seems to react different in day and night games (though this could just be in my head and because of the commentary I believe it) but my record is far better in day games. All these numbers I study when forced because of things like school to not play The Show. Knowing my schedule and upcoming lineups, I can plan a pitching approach before going into a game. (not saying this is needed, I am aware I am obsessive and also for some odd reason can memorise real and video game stats and numbers) But if The Show is approached as one would an actual start or manager does it becomes the best expierience ever. Since I can not actually play or manage baseball this is the greatest gift I have ever been given!

I have discovered the following regardless of pitcher though ratings can make this worse or subdue it.....

- When over thrown the 2seamer can literally go anywhere. Mostly with very bad results!

- The 4seamer tends to go up.

- Sinkers, Splitters, 12-6 Curves, some changeups and most anything primarily breaking down end up in the dirt. THOUGH IF WAY OVER THROWN CAN END UP RIGHT DOWN THE MIDDLE!!!! <---- which is bad

- Standard breaking balls like Sliders and Curves besides the 12-6 over exagirate the break.
This also can apply to Cutters and Running Fastballs (which are technically a 2seamer) but react slightly different to being over thrown. Over throwing the RF is no where near as disasterous as overthrowing the standard 2SFB.

- Never pitched with a knuckler so I have no clue what happens when it is over thrown. As far as I know Dickey is only active pitcher who throws it. In the past I used Wakkefield but the game has changed a lot since those days pitching wise. (FOR THE BETTER!)

Under throwing pitches seems less predictable and more dependent on the pitcher. Though I just maybe do not under throw very often or possibly it just takes some speed off. Maybe someone else can confirm this.

The only pitch I ever throw with max velocity on a somewhat regular bases (mostly for strikeouts or with closers) is high fastballs trying to get someone to chase as they tend to "rise" out of the zone later when slightly overthrown. Though if greatly overthrown it is way high!
Sometimes an occasional sweeping curve, slurve (though I hate the pitch), cutter or slider for same reason. To get someone to chase as it breaks out of the zone.

If you like watching big flies throw the 2seamer max velocity or over and it sometimes (in my opinion and by my charts about 25% of the time) ends up center plate then someplace in the stands.*It IS my favourite pitch but must be used in the correct location and with perfect release or just do not throw it. In game it is not the same as the sinker or running fastball when it comes to release timing, though in real life I suspect it is much more the same.

I think this is all pretty much true to real pitching. When a pitcher overthrows a curve it bounces or worse yet does not break. A fastball hits the backstop as it rises over the catchers mitt and so on. I have only ever played softball, so I am speculating and going off what experts write and by observing the game as a huge fan of pitching.

Hero,
Can you can confirm release point matters? Or am I bat arse crazy?
It is sometimes hard to know for sure as classic does allow for a bad pitch do to player ratings. But when taking someone with high control on a certain pitch into practice I only miss my location (meaning miss by a lot, not just slightly off) when my release is way early or way late. Meaning long before max velocity or at max or sometime after.

By the way I use Armor's sliders and play on All Star if that matters.
Hey man! Thanks for the in-depth analysis. This is exactly the kind of observations that new-comers will find useful when they take the plunge and try out Classic Pitching!

I've gotta say I agree with just about everything you said to a "T," aside from your opinion that day games are treated differently than night games. To my knowledge, the game is agnostic to time of day. Though your eyes are not! Some players see the ball better in night games, for example, because the ball stands out more when the hitters backdrop is darker. For some, it's the opposite.

Underthrowing and overthrowing are the most debated aspects to the interface and it's not even close. Some people even believe that they can go beyond vibration and get even more effort, though I've seen no evidence to support that. Max effort is indicated by the vibration point and any further holding is arbitrary (not that I don't do it occasionally, if only to feel like a bad-***! ).

Underthrowing is much more up to debate. My opinion is that yes, light taps can be remarkably susceptible to meatball central. Especially with the 2FB and I'm really not sure why. You can't actually "underthrow" using any other interface so I see no reason to believe that this is programmed exclusively for Classic (though I do see it too).

My best guess as to what's happening is because user skill is removed from the process, the algorithm for what determines a meatball is more noticeable because we really couldn't have lessened its likelihood by timing a meter correctly or aiming the LS perfectly.

And I totally agree that there is varying degrees of effort hidden between a light tap and vibration. You'll regularly see me and many others talk about 1/4 tapping or 2/3 tapping. This is representing our approximation of how for to vibration we are holding the X button.

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