Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion Thread 2015

[SpritePuck]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion Thread 2015

Back to my first post, about throwing pitches in the zone and a higher likelihood of "hitting" the spot.. is it that you're hitting the exact location, or that you're considering "hitting the spot" as throwing a strike?

Like others, I don't have anything but a few years of personal experience and observation. I just know that I pitch on the corners as much as possible and it doesn't seem like my pitchers are any less accurate, but the misses end up as balls more often (for obvious reasons).

Fantastic discussion, though....

I throw on corners too as Greg Maddux once said the key to go pitching is low and away.. <----- paraphrased

What I and I think hero were talking about was when selecting location, less vibration means more accuracy. So, one can still hit corners with relatively low to no vinpbration. As vibration is caused by where pitch starts not where it finishes. So, say a 4 seam fastball high and tight will vibrate but that is an accurate pitch. A curve landing high and tight (I know dumb example) would vibrate like crazy as you would be starting it way out of zone. Vs. starting a curve somewhat center it ends very low or even out of the zone, you have no vibration and hit the spot more.

When I say hitting location I mean within a ball or so of where aiming. I used to use classic pitching indicator so exact spot aimed is not easy to know. I now use no indicator so it is just feel.

But yes pitch on the black and low corners especially. Just I feel if fighting the pitches nature trying to place it way to precise the controller vibrate and accuracy goes down the greater the vibration. To me it is like in the actual game when they say a pitcher is "aiming" his pitches. The key is to use the break without fighting it. Of course never through anything down the middle.

I think we do the same thing and I just saud it strangely before. Because what you explain sounds exactly like how I go about it.

[ryan36]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion Thread 2015

I can't fire up the game right now to even look at the signs from the catcher, but wouldn't a fist be a call for a pitchout?? I have never seen the API call for a pitchout or pickoff move , but usually a fist is a sign for the running game...

[Hanoble]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion Thread 2015

I play with All-Star with Armor&Swords sliders API off but still use catchers signs.

Here is my understanding of reading catchers signs. You can do this with API off and have them call your game. You will need to somewhat pick your spots but the catcher often gives you a side or lets you know if he wants it up in the zone.

Using API to confirm pitch signs I have found the following. I used Ten different top pitchers with different pitches and number of pitches in practice mode to test this:
They each faced 9 batters twice, for 18 batters total. For total of 180 batters faced. I should have counted pitches but did not. Tried to go big counts though.
Difficulty:
ALL-STAR
API set ON - to see what the sign went with

Pitchers used:

Kershaw
Lester
Price
Bumgarner
Kluber
Wainwright
Cueto
Lackey (sorry a huge Sox fan, I know he is old and not an ace anymore)
Kimbrel
Chapman

Things to note:
Never did I receive a flashed four for a pitcher that only has four pitches.
Never did I receive a break call for a pitch with wrong or no break.
Never did I receive a thigh tap but API placement on wrong side.
Never did I receive a sign for one number when API asked for another.
Never did a standard four sign by catcher indicate the #5 R1 pitch API flash.

Catching signs for calling pitches:

1 finger = X
2 fingers = O
3 fingers = △
4 fingers = ▢
* Flashed 4 = R1
** closed clenched fist = hard fastball (only one I am not 100% sure of)

* He wiggles them quick and then holds four. In game it is not mistakeable!
In softball we call it a flashed sign (may have an official baseball name). We recently started calling it twinkle fingers. Cause from the rubber it looks like a star twinkle. Partially from tape on fingers, which is there to ensure pitcher sees fingers. A 2 thrown when a 3 is called for is not only possibly a huge hit but also very tough to catch.

** About closed/clenched fist
The closed fist has yet for me to occur *in practice. In game it seems to come in fastball counts. Two thoughts occur, it is either a glitch, which I doubt, or a hard fastball. I did for a while think #5 R1 was a possibility but I have since received the sign with a closer that has only three pitches. Thus my guess is it means bring the gas laddy! *But since I never have had it with API displayed I am guessing. I have ruled it out as #5 as that for me has always been a flashed four, plus the closer with only three pitches received it.

Locations:
The quick explanation of how catchers call in The Show
Last place touched is side wanted.
Knee is out of zone.
Thigh is in the zone.

listed somewhat in order of most occurring here they are:

- Sign held long and fades down is standard pitch call.
Could be anywhere.
This is the standard pitch sign.

- Quick sign
Up in the zone. Top third of strike zone or out of zone up.
It is very much noticeably faster than other signs. Most often the 1 but sometimes other numbers. Sign quick motion down then he sets. No indication of where he wants it left or right wise, just up. Could be up and in or up and out. Seems count determined and batter hot zone may also be taken into account as to if inside or out.
*all pitches wanted up in the zone do not get a quick sign but all quick signs are wanted up in the zone. I hope that makes sense

The more specific more rare signs:
Some pitchers get these more than others and which are most common varies by pitcher. Lefties with Cutters get thigh taps a ton to direction of the break.

- Sign with a non glove leg squeeze (move) in toward hand, he kinda taps the thigh with sign (can tell with multiple finger signs he touches thigh, with one it looks like just leg movement)- *right leg as all catchers have glove on left hand
in zone non glove side
* his right leg, so your left zone
(sometimes this means pitch must be started out of zone and break back in)
he kinda squeezes his legs in but non glove leg moves in way more than glove side... once you notice it, you will not miss it!

- Sign then thigh
in zone thigh side that is tapped
(again could mean start out of zone to get pitch in zone on side called for)

- Sign then knee then same side thigh
start out of zone and break back in on side tapped
(like a backdoor slider)

- Sign then thigh then other thigh
break across the plate but stay in zone toward *second indication
* the second thigh he tapped

- Sign then knee then opposite thigh
start out of zone and break in toward thigh tap side
(sweeping curve mostly is all that works with this, everything else ends fairly middle zone, the call is very rare)

- Sign then knee
out of zone knee side (a chase pitch)

- Sign thigh then knee
start thigh side and break out knee side

Note guys with 2seamers and sinkers for X the #1 pitch sometimes the API wants it up in the zone, so the catcher calls for them. I believe this is an error as the number one pitch is usually a 4 seam fastball. I would never throw any 2seam pitch up there unless it has more horizontal movement and is breaking out of the zone. Actually, I just would never do it. A 2seamer up in the zone is a souvenir for some fan with bleacher seats.

I was extremely happy to learn the catchers use a standard pitch calling system that is used by USA Junior softball and I assume baseball. Kinda cool how much is in this game and how accurate they made it. I truly believe you could learn the mental side of baseball from The Show. Of course the muscle memory may not be quite so easy.

As George V. Higgins once penned,
"The seductiveness of baseball is that almost everyone with an abiding interest in it knows exactly how it should be played. And secretly believes that he could do it, if only God had seen fit to make him just a little bit less clumsy."

Ridiculously awesome post, these are the types of things that 99% of the player base will never even think twice about or care, but the fact it is there is why The Show is, well, The Show. I spent some time with it tonight as well and saw similar things, and undoubtedly there was a consistency there to where I knew they were using some type of real system.

EXTRA CREDIT: With a runner on second was there any attempt to mask the signals or a change in the usual system? I am unsure if you noted where runners were, but it could very well be that some of your unknowns could be tied to a runner on second and the pitcher/catcher using different signals to stop him from relaying that to the batter (doubt this is actually happening, but it is a LONG STANDING series with a lot of iterations and if they went this far who really knows). Certainly happens in real life, so some food for thought

[SpritePuck]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion Thread 2015

Ridiculously awesome post, these are the types of things that 99% of the player base will never even think twice about or care, but the fact it is there is why The Show is, well, The Show. I spent some time with it tonight as well and saw similar things, and undoubtedly there was a consistency there to where I knew they were using some type of real system.

EXTRA CREDIT: With a runner on second was there any attempt to mask the signals or a change in the usual system? I am unsure if you noted where runners were, but it could very well be that some of your unknowns could be tied to a runner on second and the pitcher/catcher using different signals to stop him from relaying that to the batter (doubt this is actually happening, but it is a LONG STANDING series with a lot of iterations and if they went this far who really knows). Certainly happens in real life, so some food for thought

Not always, but with runners on second they sometimes give like tap in tap out tap in stuff. Basically a whole bunch of calls. The actual placement is last signal given. This is case regardless of runners, as there in franchise mode is way more placement taps then in practice. Though regardless of what he calls last signal is what matters thank goodness. If they switched it up it would be impossible to know. Also, the more I played watching this the more I realised I have slightly simplified it. There is a ton more signals than I listed.

Basic deal is last thigh tapped is side. If knee tapped last out of zone but is dependent on last side thigh tapped for location out of zone. All pitches are gestured to a location even standard sign has slight gesture. It is for sure complex design and programming. I have no doubt I will keep catching more sign subtlenesses.

Hahaha funny side note my hitting has taken a slight dip as all this pitching focus has a cost.

[SpritePuck]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion Thread 2015

I can't fire up the game right now to even look at the signs from the catcher, but wouldn't a fist be a call for a pitchout?? I have never seen the API call for a pitchout or pickoff move , but usually a fist is a sign for the running game...

Seems possible though I think I have gotten it first pitch bottom of nineth no one on.

It would make sense though and seems realistic.

All I know is it is situational so this is very possible as it is not a specific 1-5 standard pitch. I am playing with API on now just so I can ask for signs repeatedly as with it off, if you miss the catchers call you have to step off but no guarantee you get same call again. You almost always get something new.

Once I learn all the signs API will go off again. But next fist I get, totally noting everything that was going on. Which pitch, which inning and runners. Everything! Will save a video even so I can figure it out.

[KingV2k3]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion Thread 2015

I took SpritePuck's Catcher's Sign Tutorial Post and condensed it down to a one sheet for quick / easy reference that is suitable for copy / paste / print:

Catching signs for calling pitches:
1 finger = X
2 fingers = O
3 fingers = △
4 fingers = ▢
* Flashed 4 = R1
** closed clenched fist = hard fastball (only one I am not 100% sure of)

Locations:
Last place touched is side wanted.
Knee is out of zone.
Thigh is in the zone.

Listed in order of most occurring:

Sign held long and fades down is standard pitch call.
Could be thrown anywhere.

Quick sign
Up in the zone. Top third of strike zone or out of zone up.
*all pitches wanted up in the zone do not get a quick sign but all quick signs are wanted up in the zone.
The more specific, rare signs:

Sign with a non glove leg squeeze (move) in toward hand: means pitch must be started out of zone and break back in
He squeezes his legs in but non glove leg moves in way more than glove side

Sign then thigh: in zone thigh side that is tapped
(again could mean start out of zone to get pitch in zone on side called for)

Sign then knee then same side thigh: start out of zone and break back in on side tapped
(like a backdoor slider)

Sign then thigh then other thigh: break across the plate but stay in zone toward *second indication
* the second thigh he tapped

Sign then knee then opposite thigh: start out of zone and break in toward thigh tap side

Sign then knee: out of zone knee side (a chase pitch)

Sign thigh then knee: start thigh side and break out knee side


@SpritePuck

I have to thank you again, for such a game altering and detailed overview!

OS HOF worthy, IMHO...

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion Thread 2015

I took SpritePuck's Catcher's Sign Tutorial Post and condensed it down to a one sheet for quick / easy reference that is suitable for copy / past / print:

Catching signs for calling pitches:
1 finger = X
2 fingers = O
3 fingers = △
4 fingers = ▢
* Flashed 4 = R1
** closed clenched fist = hard fastball (only one I am not 100% sure of)

Locations:
Last place touched is side wanted.
Knee is out of zone.
Thigh is in the zone.

Listed in order of most occurring:

Sign held long and fades down is standard pitch call.
Could be thrown anywhere.

Quick sign
Up in the zone. Top third of strike zone or out of zone up.
*all pitches wanted up in the zone do not get a quick sign but all quick signs are wanted up in the zone.
The more specific, rare signs:

Sign with a non glove leg squeeze (move) in toward hand: means pitch must be started out of zone and break back in
He squeezes his legs in but non glove leg moves in way more than glove side

Sign then thigh: in zone thigh side that is tapped
(again could mean start out of zone to get pitch in zone on side called for)

Sign then knee then same side thigh: start out of zone and break back in on side tapped
(like a backdoor slider)

Sign then thigh then other thigh: break across the plate but stay in zone toward *second indication
* the second thigh he tapped

Sign then knee then opposite thigh: start out of zone and break in toward thigh tap side

Sign then knee: out of zone knee side (a chase pitch)

Sign thigh then knee: start thigh side and break out knee side


@SpritePuck

I have to thank you again, for such a game altering and detailed overview!

OS HOF worthy, IMHO...

Thanks guys/gal . I've placed this on the first page and given credit to you and SpritePuck.

[KingV2k3]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion Thread 2015

Thanks guys/gal . I've placed this on the first page and given credit to you and SpritePuck.

Thanks H&V, but all credit goes to SpritePuck...

Rare are the times that we learn this much about the games we obsesses over, huh?



Mos def "Clipboard Next to the Console" material, indeed...

Also: Further substantiates the requests for a "Catcher's Ability" rating re: calling games...would be super cool if "all catchers were not created equally" ...

Would make those guys who are all field / no hit (for example) WAAAAAY more valuable...

[Shuckman]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion Thread 2015

Great thread with some great notes and insights. I have used classic pitching the last three years after transforming from a meter pitcher. These post will help me take the pitch trail and mitt off. Thanks a lot

[SpritePuck]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion Thread 2015

Thanks H&V, but all credit goes to SpritePuck...

Rare are the times that we learn this much about the games we obsesses over, huh?



Mos def "Clipboard Next to the Console" material, indeed...

Also: Further substantiates the requests for a "Catcher's Ability" rating re: calling games...would be super cool if "all catchers were not created equally" ...

Would make those guys who are all field / no hit (for example) WAAAAAY more valuable...

Thanks gentlemen.
Also, if anyone wishes reword any of it to make it clerer or more understandable go for it. I sometimes take the long road in explaining things. Just know I will not be offended or anything. Hanoble gave me the idea to turn API on and actually watch see what sign was what call.

If catchers had a game calling rating and it affected their ability, that would be beyond amazing. Just wow, what an idea you have there. I am pretty much blown away by that concept.

All multiple signs by the way the very last place the catcher signs is the actual pitch call. The exception is his glove side knee. If he taps glove side knee it is out of zone but is throwing side if - the knee is tapped directly after throwing arm thigh is tapped. Thigh in the zone calls are always last placed touched, knee is always side of last thigh touched. haha okay that is kinda confusing but maybe it makes sense.

[Jr.]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion Thread 2015

I can't fire up the game right now to even look at the signs from the catcher, but wouldn't a fist be a call for a pitchout?? I have never seen the API call for a pitchout or pickoff move , but usually a fist is a sign for the running game...

I always viewed the fist as a glitch. I just assumed there was supposed to be a pitch call, but the fingers didn't show up due to a visual glitch.

[SpritePuck]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion Thread 2015

Thanks guys/gal . I've placed this on the first page and given credit to you and SpritePuck.

Heroes, can you edited the very last sign?

I had-
Sign thigh then knee: Start thigh side then break out knee side <----- incorrect

I had it wrong..... it is actually:
Sign thigh then knee: break out of zone side of last thigh before knee <------ correct

The knee indicates outside zone but the last thigh tapped always indicates side. Which knee is completely irrelevant to side.

examples-
So right thigh, left thigh, right thigh... is inside zone right side
right thigh, left thigh then knee is... outside zone left side regardless of which knee
right thigh, left thigh, right thigh then knee... outside zone right

Basically last thigh touched is always the side of location. Knee simply indicates outside zone. Vs. Thigh that means inside zone. Though obviously placing it on the black the call can go either way.

Haha I feel like an English Teacher would ask me what my first language is. Again reword any of them if you can say it clearer or simpler.

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion Thread 2015

Heroes, can you edited the very last sign?

I had-
Sign thigh then knee: Start thigh side then break out knee side <----- incorrect

I had it wrong..... it is actually:
Sign thigh then knee: break out of zone side of last thigh before knee <------ correct

The knee indicates outside zone but the last thigh tapped always indicates side. Which knee is completely irrelevant to side.

examples-
So right thigh, left thigh, right thigh... is inside zone right side
right thigh, left thigh then knee is... outside zone left side regardless of which knee
right thigh, left thigh, right thigh then knee... outside zone right

Basically last thigh touched is always the side of location. Knee simply indicates outside zone. Vs. Thigh that means inside zone. Though obviously placing it on the black the call can go either way.

Haha I feel like an English Teacher would ask me what my first language is. Again reword any of them if you can say it clearer or simpler.

On it.

Will be edited shortly.

EDIT: Look it over and make sure I have it right. If you ever want to edit it in full feel free to repost the entire thing and I'll place it on the first page in the old one's place.

[SpritePuck]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion Thread 2015

I always viewed the fist as a glitch. I just assumed there was supposed to be a pitch call, but the fingers didn't show up due to a visual glitch.

This is what it is just had it no runners first pitch of bottom of fifth. It was the 2seamer according to API when I asked for it again with R2 he then used two fingers. It is just a glitch, which is kinda good as it was driving me crazy trying to figure out what it was.

Well done Jr and others who suggested and suspected this.

[SpritePuck]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion Thread 2015

On it.

Will be edited shortly.

EDIT: Look it over and make sure I have it right. If you ever want to edit it in full feel free to repost the entire thing and I'll place it on the first page in the old one's place.

Thanks Heroes!
If more changes occur I will do a revised clean one and ask King V to make it copy and paste ready! He cleaned it up for easy reference and it is better that way.

You guys are all too awesome... Hope everyones season is going well. With sixty seven games to go my Cubs are 2 games back but only .5 games out of Wild Card. Hopefully we come on strong, I am worried about a fade or fizzle out. Has taken some pretty great pitching to keep us even in the race.