Fedor retiring to go into politics?

[filtertmp]

Quote: Originally Posted by BloodMeridian

What has Fedor done in the last four years to make you think he's still the best? Also, what has he done in the last four years you make you think he's the best p4p fighter? Six years ago I would have said without a doubt that he was the best HW.

It is what he hasn't done- lost. With the exception of zulu/choi which were circus fights he has fought journeyman or gatekeeper/established fighters and hasn't lost. He was the consensus #1 HW during his stint in pride and hasn't lost since while fighting respectable opponents.

He hasn't fought the absolute best, true, but I didn't see anyone questioning silva when he started stomping cans like leites, irvin and cote while legit MW's toiled in sf, sengoku and dream (belfort, misaki, shields, jacare, akiyama, etc.).

Nobody cared because silva kept winning and no other MW in any other mutually exclusive promotion could muster the same record over any stretch of time.

Who would you argue is a better HW 'right now' if you insist on discounting win streaks in your HW rankings?

[BloodMeridian]

Quote: Originally Posted by filtertmp

It is what he hasn't done- lost. With the exception of zulu/choi which were circus fights he has fought journeyman or gatekeeper/established fighters and hasn't lost. He was the consensus #1 HW during his stint in pride and hasn't lost since while fighting respectable opponents. He hasn't fought the absolute best, true, but I didn't see anyone questioning silva when he started stomping cans like leites, irvin and cote while legit MW's toiled in sf, sengoku and dream (belfort, misaki, shields, jacare, akiyama, etc.). Nobody cared because silva kept winning and no other MW in any other mutually exclusive promotion could muster the same record over any stretch of time. Who would you argue is a better HW 'right now' if you insist on discounting win streaks in your HW rankings?

Trust me I have always hated that Silva was fighting those guys. From beating Henderson to fighting Irvin and then Cote? I hope Belfort gets a shot at him.

Right now I think that Rua and Lesnar could win. I think GSP and Belfort might have a chance at beating him too. It's really hard to say maybe Mir if Fedor is out of shape I just haven't really seen Fedor fight anyone legit lately.

I look at him like Silva in a way. Just haven't seen them really tested. Not necessarily their fault but I'd like to seem them fight someone who matches up well.

[aholbert32]

Quote: Originally Posted by filtertmp

He hasn't fought the absolute best, true, but I didn't see anyone questioning silva when he started stomping cans like leites, irvin and cote while legit MW's toiled in sf, sengoku and dream (belfort, misaki, shields, jacare, akiyama, etc.). Nobody cared because silva kept winning and no other MW in any other mutually exclusive promotion could muster the same record over any stretch of time. Who would you argue is a better HW 'right now' if you insist on discounting win streaks in your HW rankings?

OK that is absolute BS. One, Cote isnt a can. Sure no one thought he would beat Silva but he was a legit MW when he fought for the belt. During that time 4 yr period, Silva also beat Franklin twice, Henderson and Forrest Griffin. Two, Jacare and Shields just became legit MWs in the last year or so. Jacare has really come on lately in Dream and SF and Shields was fighting at WW until a year ago. Lets not act like they were legit MW for the past 4 yrs.

Three, Before the Franklin win, Belfort hadnt beat a legit fighter since he beat Couture in 04 (Unless you count the Lindland win and I dont). As for Misaki and Akiyama, I'm always suspect of Japanese fighters who never fight outside of Japan.

[CYST2000]

Quote: Originally Posted by BloodMeridian

What has Fedor done in the last four years to make you think he's still the best? Also, what has he done in the last four years you make you think he's the best p4p fighter? Six years ago I would have said without a doubt that he was the best HW.

I never said he was the best, but I did say he is one of the greatest of all time.

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

OK that is absolute BS. One, Cote isnt a can. Sure no one thought he would beat Silva but he was a legit MW when he fought for the belt. During that time 4 yr period, Silva also beat Franklin twice, Henderson and Forrest Griffin. Two, Jacare and Shields just became legit MWs in the last year or so. Jacare has really come on lately in Dream and SF and Shields was fighting at WW until a year ago. Lets not act like they were legit MW for the past 4 yrs. Three, Before the Franklin win, Belfort hadnt beat a legit fighter since he beat Couture in 04 (Unless you count the Lindland win and I dont). As for Misaki and Akiyama, I'm always suspect of Japanese fighters who never fight outside of Japan.

Most of the guy's Silva beat were either cans or past their prime, IMO. He lost three of his fights to much lesser opponents in Japan, and lost pretty quickly (minus Okami, who was annihilating before the illegal knee) at that.
I don't doubt his greatness, but if I had to call out one fighter that I truly believe would destroy him, and become the next great it would be Jon "Bones" Jones. Jon Jones is the future of MMA, and you can quote me on that!

[aholbert32]

Quote: Originally Posted by CYST2000

Most of the guy's Silva beat were either cans or past their prime, IMO. He lost three of his fights to much lesser opponents in Japan, and lost pretty quickly (minus Okami, who was annihilating before the illegal knee) at that. I don't doubt his greatness, but if I had to call out one fighter that I truly believe would destroy him, and become the next great it would be Jon "Bones" Jones. Jon Jones is the future of MMA, and you can quote me on that!

One, Franklin was in his prime when he lost to Silva. Henderson was at the tail end of his prime. Griffin was in his prime. All crushed by Silva.

Two, I wouldnt consider Leben, Franklin, Henderson, Griffin, Maia, Cote, Marquardt, or Lutter cans. If you do, that means you consider every fighter not in the upper echelon a tomato can.

Three, I dont consider losing in the 3rd round (to Chonan) and 8 minutes in to round 1 (Takase) as losing "pretty quickly."

[filtertmp]

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

OK that is absolute BS. One, Cote isnt a can. Sure no one thought he would beat Silva but he was a legit MW when he fought for the belt. During that time 4 yr period, Silva also beat Franklin twice, Henderson and Forrest Griffin. Two, Jacare and Shields just became legit MWs in the last year or so. Jacare has really come on lately in Dream and SF and Shields was fighting at WW until a year ago. Lets not act like they were legit MW for the past 4 yrs. Three, Before the Franklin win, Belfort hadnt beat a legit fighter since he beat Couture in 04 (Unless you count the Lindland win and I dont). As for Misaki and Akiyama, I'm always suspect of Japanese fighters who never fight outside of Japan.

You make some good points and your right that its not a perfect analogy.

Anyways, without getting too sidetracked in the silva/fedor comparison I'd just like to point out that I mentioned a three fight stretch for a reason as opposed to a 4 year stretch as I don't honestly believe fedor hasn't fought anyone of significance in the last four years. You could make an argument that lindland/choi/fat tim was a joke of a stretch but any other three fight stretch falls apart, especially considering it wasn't fedors fault that josh barnett 'barnetted' him and overeem ruined his hand in a bar fight and flaked on SF until he cycled off.

All five of the guys I mentioned had either a) the track records (misaki, shields, jacare) or b) the hype (vitor, aki) to earn a title shot ahead of both leites and cote (or the third vacant slot wasted on a tune up at LWH).

Jacare is getting his primetime TV now but the guy was just as legit a threat (or more so) than maia is now back during that stretch ~2008. He already had multiple grappling titles and steamrolled through the dream MW GPX to the finals. He was one upkick from the whole lot of love/hype he getting now.

Shields had wins over 5 journeyman ufc ww/mw and wins over yushin okami and mach sakurai.

Misaki beat hendo, baroni, kang and akiyama and had never been KOed.

If any of these guys had signed with the UFC you bet they would have been immediate title contenders ahead of vacant/cote/leites (with the exception of shields, who would drop to ww w/o nick diaz).

Anyways I brought up the great-fighters-in-other-promotions-card because its essentially the same for the current fedor situation. I am about as confident in defending those mw's (and their hype and track record) for a legit UFC MW title shot back in ~2008 as I am the current UFC HWs (JDS, cain and carwin).

This argument got a little convoluted.. I guess my point with the analogy was to suggest that fedor not fighting the elite talent in other promotions can be a relative argument. The grass is greener on the lawn where fedor isn't KTFO people (and therefore lowering their percieved talent/stock).

It comes down to this... Fedor will have beaten 4 top10 HW's (tim,arv,rogers,werdum) in his last 4 fights and had a top 5 HW duck him. Who else can claim that? Someone from the UFC (carwin or brock) will be able to soon, with some luck, and when they do the fedor-is-overated argument will be a little more legitimate.



Also, Belfort didn't really beat couture for the record.. that was that crazy eyelid cut fight (if you can call it a fight).

[Illustrator76]

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

I dont believe Overeem would beat Brock or Carwin.

I disagree. I personally think (while extremely talented) that Brock is overrated and hasn't been tested to the level that an Overeem has. I will relent somewhat on Carwin because at least he does have more matches under his belt than Brock does. I still think the way Overeem man-handled Brett Rogers physically was pretty impressive. I know Brett Rogers isn't the best fighter, but to toss around a 6'4" 270 pound man like a ragdoll is pretty impressive, and on top of that, he pummeled him in to submission rather quickly. I don't think any of the UFC heavyweights can deal with the length and superior striking of Overeem, most of the UFC heavyweights are wrestlers/bjj guys who throw punches, not kickboxing world champions.

[aholbert32]

Quote: Originally Posted by filtertmp

All five of the guys I mentioned had either a) the track records (misaki, shields, jacare) or b) the hype (vitor, aki) to earn a title shot ahead of both leites and cote (or the third vacant slot wasted on a tune up at LWH). Jacare is getting his primetime TV now but the guy was just as legit a threat (or more so) than maia is now back during that stretch ~2008. He already had multiple grappling titles and steamrolled through the dream MW GPX to the finals. He was one upkick from the whole lot of love/hype he getting now. Shields had wins over 5 journeyman ufc ww/mw and wins over yushin okami and mach sakurai. Misaki beat hendo, baroni, kang and akiyama and had never been KOed. If any of these guys had signed with the UFC you bet they would have been immediate title contenders ahead of vacant/cote/leites (with the exception of shields, who would drop to ww w/o nick diaz). Anyways I brought up the great-fighters-in-other-promotions-card because its essentially the same for the current fedor situation. I am about as confident in defending those mw's (and their hype and track record) for a legit UFC MW title shot back in ~2008 as I am the current UFC HWs (JDS, cain and carwin). This argument got a little convoluted.. I guess my point with the analogy was to suggest that fedor not fighting the elite talent in other promotions can be a relative argument. The grass is greener on the lawn where fedor isn't KTFO people (and therefore lowering their percieved talent/stock). It comes down to this... Fedor will have beaten 4 top10 HW's (tim,arv,rogers,werdum) in his last 4 fights and had a top 5 HW duck him. Who else can claim that? Someone from the UFC (carwin or brock) will be able to soon, with some luck, and when they do the fedor-is-overated argument will be a little more legitimate. Also, Belfort didn't really beat couture for the record.. that was that crazy eyelid cut fight (if you can call it a fight).

Silva fought Cote in 08 and Leites in early 09. Shields wouldnt have received a shot at Silva during that time because he didnt start fighting at MW until mid 09. He wasnt proven at MW and there is no way Dana and Joe would have given him a shot over proven MW's like Cote and Leites who had wins in the UFC at MW.

I like Jacare alot but he didnt have the track record in 08. His biggest win was over Mayhem Miller. You could argue that Cote had bigger wins than Jacare at the time with wins over Almeida, Grove and Scott Smith.

As for the hype of Belfort and Aki, Aki's hype wasnt big enough for a title shot in the US in 08. Most UFC fans had no idea who he was. Belfort had a name but he was happy fighting bums in Cage Rage during that time.

As for Fedor beating 4 top 10 HW's, thats arguable. Werdum isnt a top ten HW right now so that knocks him off the list. Rogers didnt deserve to be Top 10 if he was ever listed there. He beat one top fighter in Arlovski. He was pure hype by SF. So really, you have 2 top 10 guys that Fedor beat and when those guys are shot like Sylvia and Arlovski are....thats not saying much.