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jfsolo · 09-10-2022, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quentin32


	Westbrook been accepting a lesser role the last 5 years of his career. He literally helped PG become a mvp candidate. Harden still was able to himself. Beal had by far his best season ever playing with Russ. I watched almost every laker game. Russ was not the issue. Injuries and the coach was

I wish the rest of the league felt like you do, so that we could trade him without giving up 2 picks, but unfortunately everyone knows what up, and we're stuck with that albatross. I guess that Ham is going to be the problem too when Russ is garbage again this season.

dwayne12345 · 09-10-2022, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfsolo


	I wish the rest of the league felt like you do, so that we could trade him without giving up 2 picks, but unfortunately everyone knows what up, and we're stuck with that albatross. I guess that Ham is going to be the problem too when Russ is garbage again this season.

Again his trade value has nothing to do with his talent. His value is low because he is on a 50 million dollar deal. If Russ was on a 25-35 million dollar expiring he would be VERY trade-able.

@Real2kInsider said it best, he is taking more difficult shots, and when his rating is put next to others in the league who would look even worse taking the kind of shots he does it comes across as not balanced.

Finally there is no way in hell that those Boston Celtics jocks Tatum, Brown, and Smart should have a high Shot IQ rating if it is truly a representation of how fast a player shoots.

Lets not forget that Russell Westbrook is an above average facilitator, so it's not like he doesn't find his guys when he is playing with talented people.

Real2KInsider · 09-10-2022, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfsolo


	I wish the rest of the league felt like you do, so that we could trade him without giving up 2 picks, but unfortunately everyone knows what up, and we're stuck with that albatross. I guess that Ham is going to be the problem too when Russ is garbage again this season.

The albatross is Westbrook's contract. That is what makes him untradeable, not his on-court play. I have no doubt the Wizards would welcome him back given their PGs are Monte Morris and Delon Wright. He also would have been the best player on last season's Knicks team.

It of course bears noting that I just referenced two teams that would be happy in the 7th-10th range. For a team with contending aspirations, he isn't good enough as the #1 guy.

The problem is he's an awkward fit next to most other #1s and he clearly doesn't work as a #3. (The Hawks (DeJounte Murray) and Clippers (John Wall) are going to find this out btw).

Russ just standing on the 3pt line not being guarded was never going to work. Not everyone gets to age as gracefully as Chris Paul, Mike Conley, Kyle Lowry, or Jrue Holiday. (The Lakers had their opportunities to acquire Lowry and blew it). Russ doesn't have the game to be anything less than the 2nd option - he should be leading 2nd units ala Derrick Rose rather than standing around as #3 the next time that presents itself.

---------------------------------------

We're also in a league that is more comfortable intentionally tanking/rebuilding, which further limits destinations for aging stars.

In the 90s we saw Dominique Wilkins...
Get traded from the Hawks to the Clippers (the Hawks got 27-yo All-Star Danny Manning - what was the 27-win Clippers motivation for acquiring a 34-year old Nique?)
Signed with a 32-win Celtics team (they went on to win 35)
Head to Greece for a year
Sign w/ the Spurs AFTER David Robinson got hurt (for tickets sales purposes)
Head to Italy for a year
And then finished his career at the end of the Magic bench at Age 39.

This never would have happened in today's league. Revenue sharing + TV money means teams don't have to worry about the on-court product & selling tickets. 30-win teams don't need to try to be 35-win teams.

ojandpizza · 09-10-2022, 03:43 PM

I have no idea what to make of Russ because regardless of what he once was, regardless of bad fit, regardless of what the end outcome percentage wise ended up being no other rotational player getting big minutes or having a consistent role was routinely missing OPEN layups like him, missing dunks where he should have taken the layup because he just didn’t realize the lift wasn’t there, was throwing layups over the rim, was getting to HIS spot to take the shot he WANTED (left side mid range pull-up) and launching clean looks 4 feet over the rim off the shot clock.

I have no idea if I think 2k is justified or if those arguing in here are justified, or if it’s something in between, because watching the games I’ve never really seen anything like it. Sure he may have converted at X percentage from X spot on the floor but his misses weren’t even just misses. On a nightly basis his shot had just as good of a chance as going over the backboard into the 2nd row as they did going through the net. And I have no idea how to quantify that because there wasn’t other players doing that literally almost every night. There is nothing to compare it against.

I know he led the league in missed layups, I’m sure led the league in air-balls, wide open air-balls, and probably led the league in shots bouncing off the shot clock too. And that type of spread is just hard to quantify. His layup numbers, I have no idea how that percentage looks if you take away garbage time, take away times teams just let him attack rather than foul/give up a 3/let someone else shoot, add in missed dunks where he shouldn’t have even tried to dunk, factored in how many other players misses were blocked shots and not just outright missing clean layups.. You factor all that in for everyone how does he look? I have no idea but I know all of that is part of the missing context of just looking at a %, especially in his case this past year because HE was an anomaly compared to other players. I just don’t know what to make of it all. There are minute(s) long lowlight videos of him from just last season alone just launching the ball nowhere close to the rim. And even though I want to give him the benefit of the doubt I have literally in my lifetime never watched a player good, average, or bad just routinely make those plays like that. It’s the most bizarre thing I’ve ever watched. Opposing teams just sat back and watched him self-sabotage last year and outside of just a handful of games that’s what he did.

I like Russ. Really want him to bounce back next year. My gut believes 2K just really didn’t give him the benefit of the doubt for a shot at being better this year. I think he can be. He was absolutely scapegoated last year for a team that had bad player fit, bad coaching fit, bad defense, no shooting, old legs, couldn’t stay healthy. Everything that could have went wrong did go wrong. But at the same time he contributed to a lot of that as well, didn’t fix any of their issues and compounded on many of them making them worse. I’m not trying to justify 2k but just looking at X stat vs. X stat also doesn’t even come close to giving context behind a lot of those numbers when you apply some form of scouting nuance with them.

Side argument - 2k has always given players far too high of a shot IQ to begin with. Russ has had horrible shot selection back to when he was good, and this year routinely WANTED to take a shot he almost nightly wasn’t even hitting the rim on. So I understand a big drop, and think it was too high to begin with. Good scorers can take awful shots. Look at guys like Kobe and Kyrie. Just because they are two of the best difficult shot makers of all time doesn’t mean they aren’t taking bad shots. Kobe taking a contested fade-a-way with a double coming after 3 pump fakes is a BAD shot, it’s low shot IQ, even if he can make that more times than anybody else can. Percentage wise a kick out to a bad player like even Smush Parker is a better shot percentage wise. And if you’re a player who routinely doesn’t make the play for the better shot you should have a bad shot IQ. The counter is high shot ratings ability, badges for contested jumpers, but the IQ should still be low. One of the first changes I make literally every year is adjusting shot IQ because 90% of players in the game are too high as is. Specialist players who literally only take shots in their ability range (Steve Kerr wide open kick out threes, Capela only rim running dunks) are the only type of players who should have 90+ shot IQ IMO. Every other type of player no matter how good they are have some degree of taking shots they shouldn’t take.

Not saying Russ needs to be the worst of the worst, but he’s realistically pretty close. He’s well below average, he was even when he was winning MVP, he’s played hero ball his entire career he just been good enough ability/athletically wise to make it work at times. It’s worse now especially when you’re only sample size for these rating adjustments is only looking back to last season which was uncharacteristically bad even for him. If he’s by choice taking a shot that he’s air-balled in 3 of his last 5 games, a shot that just last quarter he launched off the shot clock, his shot IQ is likely going to take a hit. It is what it is.

EWRMETS · 09-10-2022, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Real2KInsider


	The albatross is Westbrook's contract. That is what makes him untradeable, not his on-court play. I have no doubt the Wizards would welcome him back given their PGs are Monte Morris and Delon Wright. He also would have been the best player on last season's Knicks team.

Lol. When the lakers eat his salary, he will never play in the NBA again.

dwayne12345 · 09-10-2022, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EWRMETS


	Lol. When the lakers eat his salary, he will never play in the NBA again.

They said the same thing about John Wall. Before that they said the same thing about Carmelo Anthony. Even before that they said the same thing about Allen Iverson.

m29a · 09-10-2022, 11:45 PM

I'm not sure Westbrook would have been the best player on last season's Knicks team. Why? Because their spacing was really bad. Traditional rim bound centers + Badly shooting Randle = regularly clogged lanes for Westbrook.

Again, there is a reason why Rockets had to trade Capela. Offense gets tough when you have multiple non-threatening shooters on the floor. And Knicks with Westbrook would've had 3.

Fit matters. You cannot just plug players in without considering who is around them.

Inman1310 · 09-11-2022, 01:26 AM

Linkhttps://mobile.twitter.com/PlaySwoops/status/1568684980020334593/photo/1

09-10-2022, 03:43 PM	#36
ojandpizza Hall Of Fame OVR: 0 Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 29,839	The Russell Westbrook disrespect has to stop I have no idea what to make of Russ because regardless of what he once was, regardless of bad fit, regardless of what the end outcome percentage wise ended up being no other rotational player getting big minutes or having a consistent role was routinely missing OPEN layups like him, missing dunks where he should have taken the layup because he just didn’t realize the lift wasn’t there, was throwing layups over the rim, was getting to HIS spot to take the shot he WANTED (left side mid range pull-up) and launching clean looks 4 feet over the rim off the shot clock. I have no idea if I think 2k is justified or if those arguing in here are justified, or if it’s something in between, because watching the games I’ve never really seen anything like it. Sure he may have converted at X percentage from X spot on the floor but his misses weren’t even just misses. On a nightly basis his shot had just as good of a chance as going over the backboard into the 2nd row as they did going through the net. And I have no idea how to quantify that because there wasn’t other players doing that literally almost every night. There is nothing to compare it against. I know he led the league in missed layups, I’m sure led the league in air-balls, wide open air-balls, and probably led the league in shots bouncing off the shot clock too. And that type of spread is just hard to quantify. His layup numbers, I have no idea how that percentage looks if you take away garbage time, take away times teams just let him attack rather than foul/give up a 3/let someone else shoot, add in missed dunks where he shouldn’t have even tried to dunk, factored in how many other players misses were blocked shots and not just outright missing clean layups.. You factor all that in for everyone how does he look? I have no idea but I know all of that is part of the missing context of just looking at a %, especially in his case this past year because HE was an anomaly compared to other players. I just don’t know what to make of it all. There are minute(s) long lowlight videos of him from just last season alone just launching the ball nowhere close to the rim. And even though I want to give him the benefit of the doubt I have literally in my lifetime never watched a player good, average, or bad just routinely make those plays like that. It’s the most bizarre thing I’ve ever watched. Opposing teams just sat back and watched him self-sabotage last year and outside of just a handful of games that’s what he did. I like Russ. Really want him to bounce back next year. My gut believes 2K just really didn’t give him the benefit of the doubt for a shot at being better this year. I think he can be. He was absolutely scapegoated last year for a team that had bad player fit, bad coaching fit, bad defense, no shooting, old legs, couldn’t stay healthy. Everything that could have went wrong did go wrong. But at the same time he contributed to a lot of that as well, didn’t fix any of their issues and compounded on many of them making them worse. I’m not trying to justify 2k but just looking at X stat vs. X stat also doesn’t even come close to giving context behind a lot of those numbers when you apply some form of scouting nuance with them. Side argument - 2k has always given players far too high of a shot IQ to begin with. Russ has had horrible shot selection back to when he was good, and this year routinely WANTED to take a shot he almost nightly wasn’t even hitting the rim on. So I understand a big drop, and think it was too high to begin with. Good scorers can take awful shots. Look at guys like Kobe and Kyrie. Just because they are two of the best difficult shot makers of all time doesn’t mean they aren’t taking bad shots. Kobe taking a contested fade-a-way with a double coming after 3 pump fakes is a BAD shot, it’s low shot IQ, even if he can make that more times than anybody else can. Percentage wise a kick out to a bad player like even Smush Parker is a better shot percentage wise. And if you’re a player who routinely doesn’t make the play for the better shot you should have a bad shot IQ. The counter is high shot ratings ability, badges for contested jumpers, but the IQ should still be low. One of the first changes I make literally every year is adjusting shot IQ because 90% of players in the game are too high as is. Specialist players who literally only take shots in their ability range (Steve Kerr wide open kick out threes, Capela only rim running dunks) are the only type of players who should have 90+ shot IQ IMO. Every other type of player no matter how good they are have some degree of taking shots they shouldn’t take. Not saying Russ needs to be the worst of the worst, but he’s realistically pretty close. He’s well below average, he was even when he was winning MVP, he’s played hero ball his entire career he just been good enough ability/athletically wise to make it work at times. It’s worse now especially when you’re only sample size for these rating adjustments is only looking back to last season which was uncharacteristically bad even for him. If he’s by choice taking a shot that he’s air-balled in 3 of his last 5 games, a shot that just last quarter he launched off the shot clock, his shot IQ is likely going to take a hit. It is what it is. Last edited by ojandpizza; 09-10-2022 at 03:45 PM.

09-10-2022, 11:45 PM	#39
m29a Rookie OVR: 0 Join Date: Aug 2011	Re: The Russell Westbrook disrespect has to stop I'm not sure Westbrook would have been the best player on last season's Knicks team. Why? Because their spacing was really bad. Traditional rim bound centers + Badly shooting Randle = regularly clogged lanes for Westbrook. Again, there is a reason why Rockets had to trade Capela. Offense gets tough when you have multiple non-threatening shooters on the floor. And Knicks with Westbrook would've had 3. Fit matters. You cannot just plug players in without considering who is around them. MoneyOvaHuds, J_Posse and Inman1310 like this.

09-11-2022, 01:26 AM	#40
Inman1310 Rookie OVR: 0 Join Date: Sep 2022	Re: The Russell Westbrook disrespect has to stop Linkhttps://mobile.twitter.com/PlaySwoops/status/1568684980020334593/photo/1

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The Russell Westbrook disrespect has to stop