NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

[8KB24]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rashidi

The fact that you are comparing Brandan Wright to Dikembe Mutombo and not the 30th best center of 1995 sums up what's wrong with your approach here.

No, the fact that PER displays Wrights of the world as better than Mt.Mutombo sums up what's wrong with your approach here. Your approach is too simplistic to cover 400 players comparision.

[vtcrb]

Quote: Originally Posted by vannwolfhawk

Sorry I unleashed the beast! Haha Rashidi, you came with all this data and pulled out certain years to support your argument but I could do the same. You can't just go off numbers and as some said the eye test needs to come into play. What also comes into play is systems or teams they played on. Most guys in today's NBA would only be considered power forwards. You can't argue guys today lack post moves. Gone is the jump hook, up and under, post fadeaways, etc. it's almost all face up now or power drop steps. If you compiled a list of the bottom 15-20 guys today with the 10-15 of let's say 87 or 88 which was what I originally commented about them maybe we could compare. Kareem Abdul-jabaar Akeem Olajuwon Pat Ewing Ralph Sampson Mark Eaton Bill Laimbeer Kevin Willis James Donaldson Robert Parish Bill Cartwright Moses Malone John Salley Jack Sikma Paul Mokeski Brad Daugherty Alvin Adams James Edwards Benoit Benjamin Alton Listor Clemson Johnson Joe Barry Carroll Sam Bowie Kevin Duckworth Artis Gimore Frank brickowski LaSalle Thompson Joe Klein Danny schayes Blair Rasmussen Kent benson Bill Wennington Manute Bol The size alone back then compared to now was night and day although like I said earlier no doubt players are more athletic nowadays. But you can't tell me today's 15-20 centers (pf back in these days) are better than these guys. I'm not sure how old you are so maybe all you have to go off is numbers but I watched these guys play and their fundamentals, post moves, and defense are way ahead of today's players. Athleticism, no. Ability to guard perimeter, no. But strictly on the blocks and in the post not even an argument really.

1,000,000% Agree. Today's Post players would Foul out rather quickly as they wouldnt be able to deal with the SKILL and Technique of the Older Post players. It wouldnt even be close. None of Today's Centers could touch Hakeem, Patrick, DRob, Kareem, Sampson(before knees gave out), Daugherty(before injury) & More. Basketball used to be about Skill, now it is How fast i can run up the floor and either Dunk or Shoot a 3 most possessions.

I am hoping they keep Adding Classic Teams(maybe some TRUE Classic Teams) in the Future. Because they for me are the Most fun to play with and against.

[Real2KInsider]

Quote: Originally Posted by vannwolfhawk

The size alone back then compared to now was night and day although like I said earlier no doubt players are more athletic nowadays.

That is necessary in today's NBA where quickness and agility supersede size and strength. Teams stopped wasting draft picks on projects who never develop and instead focus on basketball players. A high degree of skill is required in today's NBA. Much more is asked of NBA big men now then to either be the post guy or a fouling goon.

Part of the reason the center position evolved is because the PF position evolved. Centers dominated the NBA throughout it's history and as previously stated it wasn't until Malone/Barkley when that changed. PFs are vastly better than they were in the 80s which is another reason stiff centers fell by the wayside in favor of smaller players who could actually play the game.

Teams would draft centers because they didn't have a franchise one, and simply cross their fingers and pray. There's a reason Sam Bowie got drafted over Michael Jordan in the 80s, and it wasn't because he was a better college player.

Quote:

But you can't tell me today's 15-20 centers (pf back in these days) are better than these guys.

This is a commonly over-stated trope that applied 10-15 years ago (when Dale Davis and Antonio Davis were all-star centers) that simply does not apply now. Beyond Al Horford and Tim Duncan, what starting center in the NBA isn't a true center?

Quote:

I'm not sure how old you are so maybe all you have to go off is numbers but I watched these guys play and their fundamentals, post moves, and defense are way ahead of today's players. Athleticism, no. Ability to guard perimeter, no. But strictly on the blocks and in the post not even an argument really.

I have seen the 90s, but my point in this topic from the jump (before people started nitpicking PER) is that the NBA has fundamentally changed and the OVR rating must reflect the present (and the early data suggests that it does not). The great centers of the past would no doubt be able to play in today's NBA but the other 90% was primarily BBQ chicken that did nothing offensively.

I'm sure Wilt Chamberlain had a wee bit more post skill than your average center in 2015, but the reality is we have a 3PT lane, a lane larger than 12 feet, and centers larger than 6'6" nowadays. What worked in the past doesn't automatically translate.

--------

The fundamental difference between 1988 and the present is this.

1988 3PT Shots
AVG: 130-410 3PT (31.6%)
High: 271-705 BOS (38.4%)
Low: 29-138 WAS (21.0%)

2015 3PT Shots
AVG: 643-1838 3PT (35.0%)
High: 883-2217 GSW (39.8%)
Low: 498-1566 CHA (31.6%)

Three is greater than two. Bigs acquire different skills for a VERY different NBA. They are much more well-rounded now instead of specialists.

On another note, I would also like to point out that the defense of the 80s is perhaps it's more overrated facet. This was an era where Jordan not only averaged 35-37 PPG but numerous players averaged 30+ PPG, Stockton averaged 15 APG, Showtime existed, but there are people who talk about this era who act like every team was Detroit. Teams were more physical sure, but it's not like fouling your opponents and putting them on the line translates to good defense.

ORTG/DRTG (Points per 100 Possessions - i.e. Scoring Efficiency)
1980: 105.3 on 103.1 Pace (possessions per 48 minutes)
1981: 105.5 on 101.8 Pace
1982: 106.9 on 100.9 Pace
1983: 104.7 on 103.1 Pace
1984: 107.6 on 101.4 Pace
1985: 107.9 on 102.1 Pace
1986: 107.2 on 102.1 Pace
1987: 108.3 on 100.8 Pace
1988: 108.0 on 99.6 Pace
1989: 107.8 on 100.6 Pace
1990: 108.1 on 98.3 Pace
1991: 107.9 on 97.8 Pace
1992: 108.2 on 96.6 Pace
1993: 108.0 on 98.8 Pace
1994: 106.3 on 95.1 Pace - Enter Riley ball
1995: 108.3 on 92.9 Pace - Shortened 3pt line
1996: 107.6 on 91.8 Pace - Shortened 3pt line
1997: 106.7 on 90.1 Pace - Shortened 3pt line
1998: 105.0 on 90.3 Pace - REGULAR 3pt line
1999: 102.2 on 88.9 Pace - Lockout season (out of shape/overworked players)
2000: 104.1 on 93.1 Pace
2001: 103.0 on 91.1 Pace
2002: 104.5 on 92.7 Pace
2003: 103.6 on 91.0 Pace
2004: 102.9 on 90.1 Pace - 25-year low for offense/high for defense
2005: 106.1 on 90.9 Pace - Enter freedom of movement
2006: 106.2 on 90.5 Pace
2007: 106.5 on 91.9 Pace
2008: 107.5 on 92.4 Pace - Enter Thibodeau
2009: 108.3 on 91.7 Pace
2010: 107.6 on 92.7 Pace
2011: 107.3 on 92.1 Pace
2012: 104.6 on 91.1 Pace
2013: 105.9 on 92.0 Pace
2014: 106.7 on 93.9 Pace - The fastest the NBA has been in 20 years
2015: 105.6 on 93.9 Pace

The 80s were the worst defensive era in NBA history. It was an up-tempo run and gun era, and there is no disputing that. For all the disparaging remarks various "back-in-my-day" vets will make about the current NBA, all the freedom of movement did in 05 was bring us back to that era. All-in defensive teams like the Spurs/Pistons spawned by Riley-ball were having too much success and largely making the game un-watchable (certainly reflected by the TV ratings of the era), so a change was necessary to restore league balance...

....And yet, teams have figured out how to defend again despite all the limitations/restrictions they have in place.

In summary, the views I have on the 80s/90s are well-rooted in a ton of research, analysis, player/league comparison, etc. It is more than just nostalgia, name-dropping, and a narrow glance at one skill set that most people typically bring to the specific discussion.

[vtcrb]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rashidi

That is necessary in today's NBA where quickness and agility supersede size and strength. Teams stopped wasting draft picks on projects who never develop and instead focus on basketball players. A high degree of skill is required in today's NBA. Much more is asked of NBA big men now then to either be the post guy or a fouling goon. Part of the reason the center position evolved is because the PF position evolved. Centers dominated the NBA throughout it's history and as previously stated it wasn't until Malone/Barkley when that changed. PFs are vastly better than they were in the 80s which is another reason stiff centers fell by the wayside in favor of smaller players who could actually play the game. Teams would draft centers because they didn't have a franchise one, and simply cross their fingers and pray. There's a reason Sam Bowie got drafted over Michael Jordan in the 80s, and it wasn't because he was a better college player. I have seen the 90s, but my point in this topic from the jump (before people started nitpicking PER) is that the NBA has fundamentally changed and the OVR rating must reflect the present. The great centers of the past would no doubt be able to play in today's NBA but the other 90% was primarily BBQ chicken that did nothing offensively. I'm sure Wilt Chamberlain had a wee bit more post skill than your average center in 2015, but the reality is we have a 3PT lane, a lane larger than 12 feet, and centers larger than 6'6" nowadays. What worked in the past doesn't automatically translate. -------- The fundamental difference between 1988 and the present is this. 1988 3PT Shots AVG: 130-410 3PT (31.6%) High: 271-705 BOS (38.4%) Low: 29-138 WAS (21.0%) 2015 3PT Shots AVG: 643-1838 3PT (35.0%) High: 883-2217 GSW (39.8%) Low: 498-1566 CHA (31.6%) Three is greater than two. Bigs acquire different skills for a VERY different NBA. They are much more well-rounded now instead of specialists. On another note, I would also like to point out that the defense of the 80s is perhaps it's more overrated facet. This was an era where Jordan not only averaged 35-37 PPG but numerous players averaged 30+ PPG, Stockton averaged 15 APG, Showtime existed, but there are people who talk about this era who act like every team was Detroit. Teams were more physical sure, but it's not like fouling your opponents and putting them on the line translates to good defense. ORTG/DRTG (Points per 100 Possessions - i.e. Scoring Efficiency) 1980: 105.3 on 103.1 Pace (possessions per 48 minutes) 1981: 105.5 on 101.8 Pace 1982: 106.9 on 100.9 Pace 1983: 104.7 on 103.1 Pace 1984: 107.6 on 101.4 Pace 1985: 107.9 on 102.1 Pace 1986: 107.2 on 102.1 Pace 1987: 108.3 on 100.8 Pace 1988: 108.0 on 99.6 Pace 1989: 107.8 on 100.6 Pace 1990: 108.1 on 98.3 Pace 1991: 107.9 on 97.8 Pace 1992: 108.2 on 96.6 Pace 1993: 108.0 on 98.8 Pace 1994: 106.3 on 95.1 Pace - Enter Riley ball 1995: 108.3 on 92.9 Pace - Shortened 3pt line 1996: 107.6 on 91.8 Pace - Shortened 3pt line 1997: 106.7 on 90.1 Pace - Shortened 3pt line 1998: 105.0 on 90.3 Pace - REGULAR 3pt line 1999: 102.2 on 88.9 Pace - Lockout season (out of shape/overworked players) 2000: 104.1 on 93.1 Pace 2001: 103.0 on 91.1 Pace 2002: 104.5 on 92.7 Pace 2003: 103.6 on 91.0 Pace 2004: 102.9 on 90.1 Pace - 25-year low for offense/high for defense 2005: 106.1 on 90.9 Pace - Enter freedom of movement 2006: 106.2 on 90.5 Pace 2007: 106.5 on 91.9 Pace 2008: 107.5 on 92.4 Pace - Enter Thibodeau 2009: 108.3 on 91.7 Pace 2010: 107.6 on 92.7 Pace 2011: 107.3 on 92.1 Pace 2012: 104.6 on 91.1 Pace 2013: 105.9 on 92.0 Pace 2014: 106.7 on 93.9 Pace - The fastest the NBA has been in 20 years 2015: 105.6 on 93.9 Pace The 80s were the worst defensive era in NBA history. It was an up-tempo run and gun era, and there is no disputing that. For all the disparaging remarks various "back-in-my-day" vets will make about the current NBA, all the freedom of movement did in 05 was bring us back to that era. All-in defensive teams like the Spurs/Pistons spawned by Riley-ball were having too much success and largely making the game un-watchable (certainly reflected by the TV ratings of the era), so a change was necessary to restore league balance... ....And yet, teams have figured out how to defend again despite all the limitations/restrictions they have in place. In summary, the views I have on the 80s/90s are well-rooted in a ton of research, analysis, player/league comparison, etc. It is more than just nostalgia, name-dropping, and a narrow glance at one skill set that most people typically bring to the specific discussion.

The League has changed due to the Lack of skill by alot of players these days. Look at all the Hype/Praise Jahlil Okafor has received coming into the League because he is an "Old School" Center with Post Skills.

Now I do agree the League has changed, but I think it would change Back IF we had highly Skilled Post Players like we did in the Past. The 3pt Line would just give the Bigmen more room to operate down low.

Also remember all these "Touch" Fouls werent called back in the day, so FT attempts by the Bigmen would Sky Rocket in Today's NBA.

[8KB24]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rashidi

I'm sure Wilt Chamberlain had a wee bit more post skill than your average center in 2015, but the reality is we have a 3PT lane, a lane larger than 12 feet, and centers larger than 6'6" nowadays. What worked in the past doesn't automatically translate.

This irks me so frickin much you have no idea.

These are the centers that Wilt was facing.

Spoiler

Quote:

Walter Dukes (7'0", 220 lbs.) Swede Halbrook (7'3, 235 lbs.) Tom Boerwinkle (7'0", 265 lbs.) Bob Lanier (6'11", 265 lbs.) Darrall Imhoff (6'10", 220 lbs.) Otto Moore (6'11", 210 lbs.) Sam Lacey (6'10", 235 lbs.) George Johnson (6'11", 245 lbs.) Paul Ruffner (6'10", 230 lbs.) Dick Cunningham (6'10", 245 lbs.) Walt Bellamy (6'11", 225 lbs.) Leroy Ellis (6'10", 210 lbs.) Nate Thurmond (6'11", 235 lbs.) Mel Counts (7'0", 235 lbs.) Nate Bowman (6'10", 230 lbs.) Clyde Lee (6'10", 210 lbs.) Walt Wesley (6'11", 230 lbs.) Henry Akin (6'10", 225 lbs.) Hank Finkel (7'0", 240 lbs.) Lew Alcindor aka Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (7'2", 225 lbs.) Neal Walk (6'10", 220 lbs.) Elmore Smith (7'0", 250 lbs.) Jim McDaniels (6'11", 230 lbs.) LaRue Martin (6'11", 215 lbs.) Tom Riker (6'10", 225 lbs.) Conrad Dierking (6'9", 225 lbs.) Johnny “Red” Kerr (6'9", 230 lbs.) Bob Pettit (6'9", 220 lbs.) Spencer Haywood (6'9", 230 lbs.) Rick Roberson (6'9", 230 lbs.) Luke Jackson (6'9", 240 lbs.) Duke Hogue (6'9," 240 lbs.) Zelmo Beaty (6'9", 230 lbs.) Len Chappell (6'9", 240 lbs.) Elvin Hayes (6'9", 235 lbs.) Hub Reed (6'9", 220 lbs.)

Here are the NBA players from 1960-1972 6'11" or taller who played at least 3 years in the NBA: (list does not include Wilt Chamberlain)

Spoiler

Quote:

Kareem Abdul Jabbar: 7'2" Dennis Awtrey: 6'11" Walt Bellamy: 6'11" Tom Boerwinkle: 7'0" Nate Bowmen: 6'11" Mel Counts: 7'0" Walter Dukes: 7'0" Jim Eakins: 6'11" Ray Felix: 6'11" Hank Finkel: 7'0" Artis Gilmore: 7'2" Swede Halbrook: 7'3" Reggie Harding: 7'0" Bob Lanier: 6'11" Jim McDaniels: 6'11" Otto Moore: 6'11" Dave Newmark: 7'0" Rich Niemann: 7'0" Billy Paultz: 6'11" Craig Raymond: 6'11" Elmore Smith: 7'0" Chuck Share: 6'11" Ronald Taylor: 7'1" Nate Thurmond: 6'11" Walt Wesley: 6'11"

With Wilt being 7'1 265 most of his career.

/disclaimer - overlapping on two lists because I'm lazy atm.

[Mauer4MVP]

Quote: Originally Posted by vannwolfhawk

Sorry I unleashed the beast! Haha Rashidi, you came with all this data and pulled out certain years to support your argument but I could do the same. You can't just go off numbers and as some said the eye test needs to come into play. What also comes into play is systems or teams they played on. Most guys in today's NBA would only be considered power forwards. You can't argue guys today lack post moves. Gone is the jump hook, up and under, post fadeaways, etc. it's almost all face up now or power drop steps. If you compiled a list of the bottom 15-20 guys today with the 10-15 of let's say 87 or 88 which was what I originally commented about them maybe we could compare. Kareem Abdul-jabaar Akeem Olajuwon Pat Ewing Ralph Sampson Mark Eaton Bill Laimbeer Kevin Willis James Donaldson Robert Parish Bill Cartwright Moses Malone John Salley Jack Sikma Paul Mokeski Brad Daugherty Alvin Adams James Edwards Benoit Benjamin Alton Listor Clemson Johnson Joe Barry Carroll Sam Bowie Kevin Duckworth Artis Gimore Frank brickowski LaSalle Thompson Joe Klein Danny schayes Blair Rasmussen Kent benson Bill Wennington Manute Bol The size alone back then compared to now was night and day although like I said earlier no doubt players are more athletic nowadays. But you can't tell me today's 15-20 centers (pf back in these days) are better than these guys. I'm not sure how old you are so maybe all you have to go off is numbers but I watched these guys play and their fundamentals, post moves, and defense are way ahead of today's players. Athleticism, no. Ability to guard perimeter, no. But strictly on the blocks and in the post not even an argument really.

But why are we limiting the player's ability strictly to their ability on the blocks? I'll disagree that players back then were better defensively on the block.

But my point is that the game has evolved so much that we can't just limit it to one area of the game. That's a big reason why today's bigs are deeper than what you posted. They aren't just specialized in that one area. I'll without a doubt make the argument that as a whole, the top 15-20 are better today.

[Real2KInsider]

Quote: Originally Posted by 8KB24

No, the fact that PER displays Wrights of the world as better than Mt.Mutombo sums up what's wrong with your approach here. Your approach is too simplistic to cover 400 players comparision.

As stated by Hollinger himself, PER is not meant to be an end-all be-all rating and people who use it as such miss the greater point.

Brandan Wright is a backup center and it is pretty ****ing clear to anyone with a modicum of intelligence that no backup center in 1995 had anywhere close to Wright's offensive efficiency.

There are no 90s backups with a career 20.2 PER, 62.6 TS%, or 7.8 TO% (0.94 A/T ratio for a non-passer). They don't exist, because any player that effective in 1995 would have been injected into a starting lineup effective immediately (where the player's PER would have inevitably decreased, though I doubt you could explain why).

Suggesting that Mutombo and Wright should be directly compared off of PER when they don't fill the same team role is taking the simplistic approach (find the irony). I'm not the one using that argument. That's you. I'm looking at 80 players collectively and you can't count higher than two.

[8KB24]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rashidi

As stated by Hollinger himself, PER is not meant to be an end-all be-all rating and people who use it as such miss the greater point. Brandan Wright is a backup center and it is pretty ****ing clear to anyone with a modicum of intelligence that no backup center in 1995 had anywhere close to Wright's offensive efficiency. There are no 90s backups with a career 20.2 PER, 62.6 TS%, or 7.8 TO% (0.94 A/T ratio for a non-passer). They don't exist, because any player that effective in 1995 would have been injected into a starting lineup effective immediately (where the player's PER would have decreased). Suggesting that Mutombo and Wright should be directly compared off of PER when they don't fill the same team role is taking the simplistic approach (find the irony). I'm not the one using that argument. That's you. I'm looking at 80 players collectively and you can't count higher than two.

Talk about being arrogant and condescending.

Anyway.

You are the one that used PER as a tool (may I say your only tool) of comparing that 2015 big men are better and is deeper position than in 1995 (on which I may or may not agree). And I gave you examples that that tool is flawed. Yet you can't take criticism that was intended as a positive criticism because I believe you're an intelligent human being capable of good, solid discussion. And here you are, taking the my way or the highway approach. I'd like to see league-wide averages for centers in few stats such as PER (yes, PER), DBPM/OBPM/BPM, ws/48, TRB%, AST%, TOV%, BLK% and TS% from both 1995 and 2015 and then see how centers(or big-men because I believe in versatility and position-less bball) stack up against each other. That is why I said simplistic approach.