Lead Pass Defense Discussion

[A6_Foul_Out]

Quote: Originally Posted by MrBallaBoy21

I've nudged into dudes trying to take charges like that in Pro-Am and never got called for a foul. .

Most people can't do it effectively.

The clips above are of me actually getting these calls on computers, which is much more difficult.

If the person is turboing without the ball, has taken more than 3 steps while turbo, and is not in a pass animation to receive the ball they will commit a personal foul.

[The 24th Letter]

Quote: Originally Posted by jyoung

The interception animations that are already in the game definitely shouldn't be tied to a badge (interceptor). Any player on the court should be able to intercept a pass that's thrown right to them as long as there's no offensive player in the passing lane. The one situation where interceptions should never occur IMO is whenever someone is playing on-ball perimeter defense. Those situations should only result in deflections, at best. The distance of the defender from the ball handler and the passing/perception ratings should also come into play. A guy with 90+ passing should be difficult to deflect unless the on-ball defender is also highly rated or he is sagging off his man. Whenever there are competing offensive/defensive players in the same passing lane, I'd like to see more bobbles, tips, and loose balls happening. Currently, there are too many clean catches on passes thrown into densely contested areas. The other trouble area in 2K16 is whenever the defender is trailing the offensive player from a step behind on the fast break. We need better deflection/interception animations for those situations. Right now most of those animations will miss the ball completely even if your positioning and timing are good. I think the length and angle of the outlet pass should determine whether or not you can intercept it. Long and straight passes should produce more interceptions. Short and sideways passes should create more deflections. Yes, I'd like to see them borrow the system from NHL 16 where your player will automatically contest passes that come his way as long as he's facing the pass and has the left trigger held down. They could make this auto pass contest an option just like the auto shot contest that's already in the game.

Good post. The bolded is actually implemented in NBA Live, and is one of the things I would like to see 'borrowed'

[A6_Foul_Out]

Quote: Originally Posted by The 24th Letter

Good post. The bolded is actually implemented in NBA Live, and is one of the things I would like to see 'borrowed'

Universally? Or would the ability be determined by defensive skill, arm length etc.

[The 24th Letter]

Quote: Originally Posted by A6_Foul_Out

Universally? Or would the ability be determined by defensive skill, arm length etc.

Pretty much any player, if you're facing a pass when it is thrown you'll typically grab it automatically.....

[wrestlinggod1]

I was playing against the Warriors last night and they ran a pnr against D Wade and Stoudemire. Draymond was the ball handler and steph was the screener. Steph rolled to the rim and Stoudemire switched onto him and was trailing behind him. So basically, Stoudemire was between steph in the paint and draymond at the top of the key with the ball. Now this is where I got pissed off. Draymond bullets the ball to steph over D Wade's head and right passed Stoudemire's face. Stoudemire was being controlled by the AI. On the replay, I literally watched him track the ball, turn his head and waited for steph to catch the ball. Now Stoudemire is not the best defender out there, but I would assume that if a ball is passing by his face, he would make an attempt to deflect the ball.

TL;DR
It pisses me off when my AI controlled teammates simply allow bullet passes into the paint without attempting to make a play on the ball while they're in position.

Sorry if everything is a little off, I'm sending this from my phone.

[Pokes404]

This is a difficult thing to balance. I definitely don't want the old off-ball defense back. You got stonewalled by defenders so often if was practically impossible to run a play. The freedom of movement away from the ball is much better now and makes the game much more enjoyable. But without the ability to wall off the offensive player, people are free to just keep constantly cutting into the paint and there isn't much you can do as a defender.

The easy answer is to boost the AI's pass reaction, but we've seen in years past where the CPU would deflect a ridiculous number of passes (and not just forced passes in heavy traffic). Even when there was an obvious passing lane, the computer would come from nowhere and steal/tip the pass. So then maybe you boost the human controlled defender's ability to steal/tip passes. Well, if you make pass deflections too effective for human controlled defenders, then some people will play off-ball and just go for deflections all game long (which I've personally seen in past games).

Denying-cutters vs freedom-of-movement ... Tipping/stealing passes vs encouraging/rewarding ball movement ... I'm glad I'm not the one in charge of balancing these things because it's an extremely fine line. Something definitely needs to be done to stop people from forcing it into the paint, but I hope 2K is smart about how they go about it and finds a nice balance.

[HowDareI]

It needs to start from the source:

I play basketball EVERY DAY lol, you CANNOT cut backdoor on a respectable defender without a juke/spin/screen etc.

Right stick defense works...sometimes. But all the times the ball morphs throuh you, or when you're down low and have hands straight up and the AI decides you're gonna flagrant foul suddenly? Yea, those are problems.

If I'm in position denying you, putting myself between the ball and my man, you should be FORCED to make a move either to the ball or to the rim or else it's a steal. And I don't just mean pressing turbo to run through or past me.

Them juke cuts need to mean more. And if people have to learn (omg how horrible) how to actually implement them into their game to be able to backdoor cut, then good.

And yea, I love the idea of auto steals/deflections on bad passes into the paint. Because centers can send pinpoint lasers off terrible cuts into traffic...it's a problem.

[MrBallaBoy21]

Quote: Originally Posted by Pokes404

This is a difficult thing to balance. I definitely don't want the old off-ball defense back. You got stonewalled by defenders so often if was practically impossible to run a play. The freedom of movement away from the ball is much better now and makes the game much more enjoyable. But without the ability to wall off the offensive player, people are free to just keep constantly cutting into the paint and there isn't much you can do as a defender. The easy answer is to boost the AI's pass reaction, but we've seen in years past where the CPU would deflect a ridiculous number of passes (and not just forced passes in heavy traffic). Even when there was an obvious passing lane, the computer would come from nowhere and steal/tip the pass. So then maybe you boost the human controlled defender's ability to steal/tip passes. Well, if you make pass deflections too effective for human controlled defenders, then some people will play off-ball and just go for deflections all game long (which I've personally seen in past games). Denying-cutters vs freedom-of-movement ... Tipping/stealing passes vs encouraging/rewarding ball movement ... I'm glad I'm not the one in charge of balancing these things because it's an extremely fine line. Something definitely needs to be done to stop people from forcing it into the paint, but I hope 2K is smart about how they go about it and finds a nice balance.

I think the devs will be able to figure out something eventually. I'm not gonna be unreasonable and expect a perfectly balanced lead pass defense for next year or even the year after that, but I think if they just put in basic basketball fundamentals it will be all right eventually.

From my experience in the sport, most of the time you will need a screen to get free off-ball. Especially when the defensive player is just as fast as you. A smart defender will know when he is slower so he will sag off and stand between you and the goal to stuff any lead pass attempts.

If the defensive player is bigger, or stronger, or just as strong you're not going to be able to have your way getting position in the paint. It's going to be a dog fight. That's why screens are set for bigs on post ups. With the way the game is now, big men(any player really) can get whatever position they want even if there's a severe strength disadvantage.

The best time to cut to the basket without a screen is when your defender isn't looking at you, and since denying can be mapped to the controller there can be a penalty for not paying attention. They could tie the AIs defensive behavior to ratings.

I like the idea of your players automatically grabbing the balls thrown right at his face, I'd even be okay with something like the ball hawk feature in madden where you hold the button and your player will go for the pass.

Speaking of Madden, if 2k could somehow implement a feature similar to the wr/db interactions so that if you're running shoulder to shoulder with the cutter both of you will have to "fight" for the ball it'd be pretty cool.

If 2k decides to give this aspect of the game more attention I'm sure they can fine tune it with time.