PS5: Contests need TUNING

[Kushmir]

Quote: Originally Posted by MrWrestling3

Honestly,I would rather they just tone down the badges so that dudes actually have to take intelligent shots to shoot a good percentage instead of doing 57 dribbles moves then shooting a moving 30 footer and being able to rely on their HoF badges to bail them out.

AGREED. Below is the core of my issue with Contesting as is...its essentially just missing blocks and being rewarded for it as good defense. It also highlights why I play off-ball. I can take away a shooter and also bring a second defender when someone gets beat:



Biggest issue? Tobias Harris isn't a shot-blocker (his rating is 53) and at no time do I actually get a block. NOT ONCE. And not one of my misses either take me out of position or risks a foul--its just neutral outcomes over and over and over.

It reminds me too much of 2K16 where challenging shot guaranteed misses.

[Kushmir]

Just beat this guy 42-40, but his key strategy on offense AND defense highlight the holes in gameplay, and specifically with contesting.

I dont even know what to call this. Even in his prime Gasol never had this kind of athleticism and plays like this from behind should virtually be guaranteed a foul outcome. There's blatant contact and the game reacts like this is a good defensive play:



For years i've warned about how necessary Strips and Crowding were as counters to pump faking and static players who would drive into the paint and wait, idle for a defender to jump:



If they fool the defender? FINE. If not the bulk of these plays need to end with defenders crowding/stripping these players. ALSO Passes like these in the paint should be deflections out of bounds almost as a rule. There are defenders RIGHT there. They can't just watch.

Gameplay has Horford body up Ibaka in the paint but none of this is necessary if that pass doesn't get through.

[Kushmir]

How bad timing on defense on chasedowns should frequently end....and obviously it shouldn't be 100% of the time. AD should sometimes miss completely and his momentum should take him out of the play. We don't just want to exchange one single outcome for another:



But in the end bad timing/bad positioning should have bad outcomes the majority of the time.

[Kushmir]

Here's an instance where we see part of the problem are bad animations. This guy's timing wasn't that bad but instead of a system where he can point the R-Stick towards Embiid and get a solid contesting animation, he just put his hands up and fades backwards?



Which makes it look like Embiid just blows a layup and falls back for nothing.

I know the devs tend to favor a system that shies away from animating the players together and i'll defer to their expertise--but there has to be a better way.

The Kemba animation below where he gets moved is probably appropriate but him forcing Horford into a contested shot animation should be RARE at best...

[HoustonHarden]

Never really agreed with the changes suggested. Right stick should always be a simple hands up / weak shot contest. Strong contest has always been JUMPING in basketball games and it should not change any time soon.

[Kushmir]

Quote: Originally Posted by HoustonHarden

Never really agreed with the changes suggested. Right stick should always be a simple hands up / weak shot contest. Strong contest has always been JUMPING in basketball games and it should not change any time soon.

The problem there is what's the penalty for missing on those "jumps" right now? its NOTHING, what happens is just Neutral Outcomes which is terrible gameplay. The other thing is that isn't authentic. Imagine an NFL game where every tackle was the diving one. Leaving your feet just isn't good defense in the NBA--especially on perimeter shots. Look at a guy like Duncan--an elite defender who rarely if ever left his feet. Beverly and Kawhi/PG are the same way.

Kobe literally made a go-to-move out of taking advantage of guys who left their feet on jump shots:



High level defense simply isn't trying to block everything.

I think there should be a simple hands up (which is the weakest kind of contest like you said) but mapping that to clicking R3 is probably better. Contesting needs to be fast, intuitive and based on timing. The R-stick is probably the best way to accomplish that.

[loso_34]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kushmir

The problem there is what's the penalty for missing on those "jumps" right now? its NOTHING, what happens is just Neutral Outcomes which is terrible gameplay. The other thing is that isn't authentic. Imagine an NFL game where every tackle was the diving one. Leaving your feet just isn't good defense in the NBA--especially on perimeter shots. Look at a guy like Duncan--an elite defender who rarely if ever left his feet. Beverly and Kawhi/PG are the same way. Kobe literally made a go-to-move out of taking advantage of guys who left their feet on jump shots: High level defense simply isn't trying to block everything. I think there should be a simple hands up (which is the weakest kind of contest like you said) but mapping that to clicking R3 is probably better. Contesting needs to be fast, intuitive and based on timing. The R-stick is probably the best way to accomplish that.

Kawhi actually jumps to contest every jump shot.

[Kushmir]

Quote: Originally Posted by loso_34

Kawhi actually jumps to contest every jump shot.

Well....kind of. No elite defender consistently leaves their feet tho. Leaving your feet to contest every shot is a recipe for disaster.

Now does he jump to block often? SURE. But Contesting/getting a hand up isn't the same as that.

Here's a clip from Giannis vs Kawhi in the playoffs last year. Watch how he contests the shot without leaving his feet (Gasol contests this way as well) They aren't trying to block the shot as much as Contest/bother it. In the second clip he lets him shoot from the perimeter:

Guys often leave their feet to contest but there's a HUGE difference between getting a hand up and trying to block the shot. Guys often leave their feet after the ball is gone to try to bother the shooter but having the bulk of contests "on the floor" could really do a good job balancing 2K.