Scottie Pippen or Paul Pierce?

[wwharton]

Quote: Originally Posted by Milbut

When I first saw the thread title my gut response was, depends on the players around them so I agree with both of you guys. I personally don't like PP at all, but I respect his talent and ability. I'd take PPs passing over Pippen's and his clutch ability over Pippen's. Now it's kind of unfair that we never really got to see Pip in the clutch since that was where Mr. 23 was at his best, but anytime Pierce is around the ball in the last 30 seconds of a tight game he makes me nervous...both ends of the floor.

Clutch is a good call (I think Pippen could've grown into matching him there but he didn't so it is what it is). I also agree with AB that PP wins in 3pt and FT %.

But passing? Yeah, you'll have to explain that one. I don't even think that's close.

[Rocky]

Quote: Originally Posted by wwharton

All past their prime but Pierce got one of the few #2 options in the same category as Pippen in KG, and a deadly shooter in Allen before he won anything... and they pretty much had to force him to retain his role as the #1 scoring option on that team. Pierce is a great player but I don't see him as more than a "solid" #1. It does come down to what you need but I don't think either of these guys are winning anything without a lot of help, as great as they both are. I'll throw a question at your question... outside of scoring (which Scottie was pretty good at) is there anything you'd rather have him than Pippen for?

That's a huge part of the game though. I just don't see how you can discount the advantage Pierce has in all around scoring ability. Furthermore, I think his ability to score has turned him into a great playmaker in his own right.

Not alot of people remember early in PP's career when he was a primary ball handler for Celtics team that went deep into the playoffs. And we've stated that Pierce was fantastic defensively against elite perimeter players...not as good as Scottie but no slouch either.

[The15thunter]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rocky

That's a huge part of the game though. I just don't see how you can discount the advantage Pierce has in all around scoring ability. Furthermore, I think his ability to score has turned him into a great playmaker in his own right. Not alot of people remember early in PP's career when he was a primary ball handler for Celtics team that went deep into the playoffs. And we've stated that Pierce was fantastic defensively against elite perimeter players...not as good as Scottie but no slouch either.

if pierce is, say, 75% of the defender that scottie was, and scottie is 75% of the scorer pierce was, then isn't scottie better since he's better at everything else?

[wwharton]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rocky

That's a huge part of the game though. I just don't see how you can discount the advantage Pierce has in all around scoring ability. Furthermore, I think his ability to score has turned him into a great playmaker in his own right. Not alot of people remember early in PP's career when he was a primary ball handler for Celtics team that went deep into the playoffs. And we've stated that Pierce was fantastic defensively against elite perimeter players...not as good as Scottie but no slouch either.

I'm discounting it bc it isn't much of an advantage. Yes, Pierce scored more than Pippen... but it's not like Pippen was Rodman, he did PLENTY of scoring. And unlike Pierce, found a way to do that scoring with a guy averaging over 30 a game who would cut your left arm off if you didn't give him his touches. Pierce was definitely better at creating his own shot, but general scoring? The difference isn't that big... just like the difference on defense isn't huge the other way. Pretty much everything else goes to Scottie.

Quote: Originally Posted by The15thunter

if pierce is, say, 75% of the defender that scottie was, and scottie is 75% of the scorer pierce was, then isn't scottie better since he's better at everything else?

Exactly what I was saying.

[Amoo316]

I'm not saying that PP is Steve Nash or that Pip was a bad passer. Pip had better passing numbers but I think there are two reasons for that.

1. The offense Pippen played in. We all know the triangle is predicated on ball movement and I think that helped boost Scottie's numbers there a bit.

2. Pip flat out had more help then PP has had most of his career.

I guess I should have really just grouped passing with clutch because that is kind of how I look at it when I say I would rather have Pierce's passing ability over Pip's. 12 seconds to go and PP has the ball, he's such a huge threat not only because he can drive to the basket (looking like a slow 90 year old man), pull up and has multiple different options. He can Shoot the pull up, toss up an off balance floater which always seems to fall or use his ability to see the floor and get somebody else a wide open shot when the double team comes. A lot of Ray Allen's wide open threes late in games have come because PP gets doubled and he has the ability to kick the ball out to Ray Ray.

To be fair Pip was probably the better conventional passer, but I don't think PP gets enough credit for how well he has learned to read the floor and anticipate the double team. That said I stand by my statement of taking PP's passing over Pip's but I guess we can put an * by it.

[The15thunter]

the triangle is actually noted for not producing players with high assist totals.

[Amoo316]

Quote: Originally Posted by The15thunter

the triangle is actually noted for not producing players with high assist totals.

No because it takes all those assists that 1 person would get the majority of and more evenly spreads them out. Unlike the systems PP has played in where basically he gets an assist if he properly reads a double team and that's assuming the guy hits the shot or doesn't kick the ball.

[wwharton]

Quote: Originally Posted by Milbut

I'm not saying that PP is Steve Nash or that Pip was a bad passer. Pip had better passing numbers but I think there are two reasons for that. 1. The offense Pippen played in. We all know the triangle is predicated on ball movement and I think that helped boost Scottie's numbers there a bit. 2. Pip flat out had more help then PP has had most of his career. I guess I should have really just grouped passing with clutch because that is kind of how I look at it when I say I would rather have Pierce's passing ability over Pip's. 12 seconds to go and PP has the ball, he's such a huge threat not only because he can drive to the basket (looking like a slow 90 year old man), pull up and has multiple different options. He can Shoot the pull up, toss up an off balance floater which always seems to fall or use his ability to see the floor and get somebody else a wide open shot when the double team comes. A lot of Ray Allen's wide open threes late in games have come because PP gets doubled and he has the ability to kick the ball out to Ray Ray. To be fair Pip was probably the better conventional passer, but I don't think PP gets enough credit for how well he has learned to read the floor and anticipate the double team. That said I stand by my statement of taking PP's passing over Pip's but I guess we can put an * by it.

1. The triangle offense hasn't produced good assist numbers for any player not named Pippen so I don't really get this one.

2. Kind of hard to talk about how he had little help but your example is passes to Ray Allen (a period of his career where he definitely had help). I'd also say your example can show that PP has demonstrated a better ability to create his own shot (worded like that bc Pippen wasn't in that situation too often with MJ on the floor with him) but is a really bad one for showing he's a better passer. Other than MJ, offensively the Bulls didn't have the options you're making it seem they did. Of course, MJ is a big one, but again, we're talking about passing. Pippen was the ultimate point forward and you're just talking about Pierce passing out of double teams. Most SGs/SFs that have had HOF level careers can successfully pass out of double teams.