Top-10 Players in the NBA

[Freak123]

Quote: Originally Posted by AlexBrady

To the OP. LeBron is not the most versatile player in history. He still hasn't figured out how to make set up passes or play in the post. Ever hear of guys like Magic Johnson, Dennis Rodman, and Scottie Pippen? Dwight Howard is a fantastic defender? He sells out for blocks, can't defend face up players, and is suckered out of position by swift ball movement. His DPOY awards are mostly bogus. And where has Chris Paul ever led the Hornets?

I say he is the most versatile player in history because he can pass, shoot, post-up (6th most efficient post-up player last season), defend as well as anybody, is a good leader (despite faltering in The Finals, he still is a very good leader), has patience, good shot-selection, is unselfish, and a freakish athlete.

I don't see anyone else, ever, that can do everything as well as LeBron. Magic couldn't shoot and wasn't a good athlete. Rodman had no offensive game whatsoever, and Pippen couldn't take over a game like LeBron on a consistent basis and couldn't pass as well.

LeBron can do everything and has no real limitations (again, he had one bad series, it was a mental thing, every great player went through it, just ask the man who just beat LeBron in Dirk Nowitzki).

Howard is a terrific defensive-player, and while I think LeBron should have won last year's DPOY award because he defended so many positions so well, Howard changes the game so much on the defensive end of the floor. Every single team that plays the Magic have to change their offensive game-plan because of him as he alters and blocks so many shots. He also grabs tons of defensive rebounds, which does play a role in winning the DPOY award. Look, this is coming from a guy who loves the Heat and hates our rival in the Orlando Magic, but I admit this guy is definitely a terrific defensive player.

Chris Paul hasn't led the Hornets anywhere because his best teammates in his career have been David West and Tyson Chandler. That's simply not good enough. He is a great leader and if you watched the series against the Lakers, you would've seen how well he orchestrates and controls everything in the game. Even if he doesn't get the assist or the points on a given play, he sure helped set it up for that team, as he is responsible for virtually all of their offense.

[Freak123]

Quote: Originally Posted by Weeks

Who would you guys consider the best 11-20 players in the NBA? I want to try to compile a list of the top 50 based on my method I posted above.

I was going to do top 20 or top 25 in the first place, but then I thought people might not want to do that many and wouldn't even respond to this thread. Here's my next 10 anyways.

11. Amar'e Stoudemire (Great leader and has a good all-around offensive-game, but needs to give more of an effort on the defensive end of the floor.)

12. Carmelo Anthony (Third-best scorer in the league in my opinion, but has never been able to consistently play team basketball and doesn't give consistent effort on the defensive end of the floor.)

13. Steve Nash (Best ball-handler ever and one of the greatest passers ever. Deadly-accurate shooter and constantly winds up in the 50-40-90 club, which is field-goal percentage, three-point percentage, and free-throw percentage respectively. Has never felt the need to work on his defense, but he does at least give an effort on that end of the floor.)

14. Chris Bosh (Great mid-range jump-shooter and is always calm, cool, and collected. Has great athleticism and has a very high basketball I.Q. Despite his demeanor, he is ultra-competitive and wants to win before anything else. He finally completely focused on the defensive end of the floor this year, but still not quite as well-rounded as some others above him. His post-defense needs work but he alters a lot of shots with his quick and sharp rotations.)

15. Rajon Rondo (Deadly-accurate passer and is as demonstratively-competitive as any guy in the league. He is also a great leader, and demands and gets the most out of himself and his teammates. Needs serious work on his jumpshot and his confidence in it, as teams can leave him completely alone and he doesn't do a thing about it, which limits his team's offensive capabilities.)

16. Pau Gasol (Despite a poor showing in the playoffs this year, he is still the best best back-to-the-basket player in the NBA. Has an array of offensive moves, but is not a great leader, doesn't get onto his teammates much for poor showings, and is inattentive on defense at times despite his incredible length. Championship-player when his mind is right and focused though.)

17. Blake Griffin (Only ahead of LaMarcus Aldridge because he can dribble the ball very well and create in that way. He plays a way a superstar plays on the offensive side of the floor despite being a rookie last season. He demands the ball and wants to win, is very mature and will continue to develop into a bigger and brighter star in this league. He has freakish athleticism, but needs more work on his jumpshot and his defense, but has already made significant strides in both areas and shows a willingness to learn from his mistakes and improve.)

18. LaMarcus Aldridge (Great back-to-the-basket player and can dominate a game. Got completely snubbed of an All-Star appearance as he scores at will and can rebound at an efficient rate. Solid on the defensive end, but could definitely use improvement in that area.)

19. Manu Ginobili (One of the most crafty players in the NBA, and even at his age he can dominate a game with his slick-and-smooth style of play that confounds his defenders and leaves them in the dust. Good shooter, slasher, defender, and just a very good versatile player.)

20. Zach Randolph (A wide array of offensive moves makes him nearly impossible to guard at times, but he can get a little too shot-happy and could throw a team off of its offensive rhythm. Also needs work on the defensive end of the floor.)

Feel free to comment guys, and sorry for the double-posting but I didn't want it to be all in one post because it would be really long and hard to read.

[TMagic]

Quote: Originally Posted by AlexBrady

His assist to turnover ratio will always be great because he is a good handler and caretaker. What he needs to do is develop an off the ball game and curl, pop, or drive off weak side screens. I wouldn't mind Paul at the controls of my club, provided he is surrounded by some serious firepower.

Growing up, my understanding has always been that a PG should be handling the ball the majority of the time for a team. I always assumed their job was to "go get the ball", set up the offense, control the flow of the game, and make plays for the other guys on their team.

Hmm...Never knew that off ball ability was such a big factor when it came to point guard play.

Maybe I'm mistaken?

[Dice]

Quote: Originally Posted by Weeks

I agree Paul is really short for a PG these days. But I haven't seen one website that has listed Thomas at 6'1". He even says that he is 6'1" himself: http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/I...-by-NBA-032911

Trust me, I have visual confirmation that Thomas was not 6'3". I have no idea who AlexBrady is talking about.

[AlexBrady]

Quote: Originally Posted by Dice

They want to make Paul's life easier? Get him some help. Who on that team besides Paul is an above average passer? Can't think of anyone on that team. So off the ball movement does no good without guys who can pass. My brother and I met Isiah Thomas in person. My brother who is taller than me is about 6'1. When he stood next to Isiah, he was shoulder to shoulder with him. Either your talking about another Zeke OR we met an impersonator. Which I highly doubt.

The kind of help Chris Paul needs just isn't possible in New Orleans. He needs to be surrounded by stars who can pick up the slack when he is inevitably trapped and doubled. I judge players based on their current function within their team which means Paul isn't good enough to win a Title. Jarrett Jack is an above average passer. Maybe you switch him to the lead guard?

Quote: Originally Posted by Freak123

I say he is the most versatile player in history because he can pass, shoot, post-up (6th most efficient post-up player last season), defend as well as anybody, is a good leader (despite faltering in The Finals, he still is a very good leader), has patience, good shot-selection, is unselfish, and a freakish athlete. I don't see anyone else, ever, that can do everything as well as LeBron. Magic couldn't shoot and wasn't a good athlete. Rodman had no offensive game whatsoever, and Pippen couldn't take over a game like LeBron on a consistent basis and couldn't pass as well. LeBron can do everything and has no real limitations (again, he had one bad series, it was a mental thing, every great player went through it, just ask the man who just beat LeBron in Dirk Nowitzki). Howard is a terrific defensive-player, and while I think LeBron should have won last year's DPOY award because he defended so many positions so well, Howard changes the game so much on the defensive end of the floor. Every single team that plays the Magic have to change their offensive game-plan because of him as he alters and blocks so many shots. He also grabs tons of defensive rebounds, which does play a role in winning the DPOY award. Look, this is coming from a guy who loves the Heat and hates our rival in the Orlando Magic, but I admit this guy is definitely a terrific defensive player. Chris Paul hasn't led the Hornets anywhere because his best teammates in his career have been David West and Tyson Chandler. That's simply not good enough. He is a great leader and if you watched the series against the Lakers, you would've seen how well he orchestrates and controls everything in the game. Even if he doesn't get the assist or the points on a given play, he sure helped set it up for that team, as he is responsible for virtually all of their offense.

LeBron only makes assist passes. He doesn't pass to facilitate offense and team concepts which is a crucial part of a championship team. His jump shooting is streaky which makes him highly unreliable when a ballgame is on the line. He can't post up, doesn't have step throughs, drop steps, hooks, or duck unders. His off the ball defense has seriously improved but his on ball D can still be had. Dwyane Wade is the leader of the Heat.

A great leader doesn't handle the ball for such a long time and amp up the pressure on his teammates. And last I checked leaders always come through in the clutch. Magic developed a one handed push shot at the end of his career and had all the athleticism he needed. Rodman had terrific court vision, passing ability, and he was highly active and effective without the ball which fueled his offenses. Pippen routinely dominated ballgames due to his dynamic scoring and lockdown defense. His passing ability exceeded LeBron's because he facilitated offense and wasn't only concerned with assists.

LeBron can do everything, besides shoot, post up, move without the ball, make quick decisions, and win. But other than that he is perfect. He had only one bad series? Need I remind you of the 2010 ECSF vs the Celtics or his previous Finals performance against the Spurs?

The only terrific aspect of Howard's defense is his shot blocking. He is easily drawn to the ball so quick swing passes,dishoffs and active bigs take advantage of him. His defensive rebounding is certainly great but it can't make up for his highly overrated D. The DPOY award should be given to the best on ball defender which would be Tony Allen, Luol Deng, or Dwyane Wade. If you want to watch legitimately great post defense I advise you to watch Desagna Diop's run in the 06 playoffs, spectacular.

Well, David West is a powerhouse scorer and Tyson Chandler is a jumping, blocking maniac who has proven his Title chops. Paul is good at what he does, but for me and for his team it isn't enough.

Quote: Originally Posted by TMagic

Growing up, my understanding has always been that a PG should be handling the ball the majority of the time for a team. I always assumed their job was to "go get the ball", set up the offense, control the flow of the game, and make plays for the other guys on their team. Hmm...Never knew that off ball ability was such a big factor when it came to point guard play. Maybe I'm mistaken?

Alot of the best points were active without the ball. Magic was an aggressive screener. West was a popper and curler. Stockton loved to reposition and aggressively backpick. Ect. Its especially crucial for Paul since he can be so easily double teamed in his current situation.

[Weeks]

Quote: Originally Posted by Dice

Trust me, I have visual confirmation that Thomas was not 6'3". I have no idea who AlexBrady is talking about.

Ok, and I made a typo in my post. I meant to say I haven't seen a website not say he was 6'1". They all do.

[Dice]

Quote: Originally Posted by AlexBrady

The kind of help Chris Paul needs just isn't possible in New Orleans. He needs to be surrounded by stars who can pick up the slack when he is inevitably trapped and doubled. I judge players based on their current function within their team which means Paul isn't good enough to win a Title. Jarrett Jack is an above average passer. Maybe you switch him to the lead guard?

That was the whole point. He doesn't have the help to make him the type of player you think he could be. He needs the ball because he's the best player on the team. You can't run the offense through anybody else on that squad. We all know Paul is not good enough to win a title BUT that doesn't deter him from being a great player. You can take Paul off the team and replace him with any all-time PG: Magic, Thomas, Stockton and they still don't make it to the conference finals. So you put Jack as your lead guard and put Paul as your 2, then you basically have a smallish backcourt that'll get posted up by the bigger guards. And when I say, 'Being an above average passer' I meant from their respective position. Yes, Jack is an above average passer compared to the other overall positions. BUT as a PG, he no better than average.

Quote: Originally Posted by AlexBrady

Alot of the best points were active without the ball. Magic was an aggressive screener. West was a popper and curler. Stockton loved to reposition and aggressively backpick. Ect. Its especially crucial for Paul since he can be so easily double teamed in his current situation.

And as stated above, when a PG doesn't have the players to get him the ball while he's playing off the ball, what good is he? Of course Magic was a great screener when Worthy's got the ball on the wing about to take some poor sap off the dribble. Or if Kareem's got the ball in the post about to sky hook some poor defender to death. Everybody is watching the ball because guys like Worthy and Kareem can score. And if the defense starts to converge on them, they have enough basketball I.Q. to hit the open man, which may be Magic sitting under the basket.

Same with West. Playing with Elgin Baylor earlier in his career and then Goodrich and Chamberlian latter, he can roam free a little to setup those plays because when those other players have the ball defenses have to worry. Same with Stockton. Defenses playing against those Jazz team concentrated more on Karl Malone, which gave Stockton some leeway to roam. And speaking of Stockton, he to me, wasn't as great as most people make him out to be. He was very good BUT I think guys like Magic, Thomas and even Gary Payton was much better than Stockton.

[AlexBrady]

Quote: Originally Posted by Dice

That was the whole point. He doesn't have the help to make him the type of player you think he could be. He needs the ball because he's the best player on the team. You can't run the offense through anybody else on that squad. We all know Paul is not good enough to win a title BUT that doesn't deter him from being a great player. You can take Paul off the team and replace him with any all-time PG: Magic, Thomas, Stockton and they still don't make it to the conference finals. So you put Jack as your lead guard and put Paul as your 2, then you basically have a smallish backcourt that'll get posted up by the bigger guards. And when I say, 'Being an above average passer' I meant from their respective position. Yes, Jack is an above average passer compared to the other overall positions. BUT as a PG, he no better than average. And as stated above, when a PG doesn't have the players to get him the ball while he's playing off the ball, what good is he? Of course Magic was a great screener when Worthy's got the ball on the wing about to take some poor sap off the dribble. Or if Kareem's got the ball in the post about to sky hook some poor defender to death. Everybody is watching the ball because guys like Worthy and Kareem can score. And if the defense starts to converge on them, they have enough basketball I.Q. to hit the open man, which may be Magic sitting under the basket. Same with West. Playing with Elgin Baylor earlier in his career and then Goodrich and Chamberlian latter, he can roam free a little to setup those plays because when those other players have the ball defenses have to worry. Same with Stockton. Defenses playing against those Jazz team concentrated more on Karl Malone, which gave Stockton some leeway to roam. And speaking of Stockton, he to me, wasn't as great as most people make him out to be. He was very good BUT I think guys like Magic, Thomas and even Gary Payton was much better than Stockton.

Paul is a good player for sure. But the fact that the ball can be forced away from him is a huge minus. Magic was so big that he could always see the entire court so double teams were useless. Isiah Thomas was a terrific one on one scorer who could always get his shots off. Stockton could hit open shots, screen himself, and was the best screen/roll player of all time. These guys would certainly get more out of the Hornets than Paul can.

While Magic and West were certainly complimented by great players, they were always playing to win. Magic would have been a great screener in any situation. Ditto for West's curling and popping.

I contend that it was Malone who wasn't all that great. His ability to score one on one was just okay and his go to move was a turnaround jumper. More, every coach knew Malone was bound to force passes, miss good shots, and take bad shots in the clutch. It was Stockton's mastery and decision making in the screen/roll game that turned Malone into a scoring machine.

In formulating the all time best points, notch Magic at the number 1 spot, Stockton at 4, and Thomas at 10. Payton has no place among the all time great points. With his ball domination, overhyped D, confrontational attitude, and limited shooting range he doesn't crack the top 20.