all-time professional basketball draft.

[55]

LOL @ Kash voting for himself.

[wwharton]

Quote: Originally Posted by OSUFan_88

What I was thinking: Larry Bird is and will always be, to me, a PF at heart. He plays SF in his day, but he was so much more of a stretch PF than he was a SF. Bird can rebound, play defense and shoot the lights out. He's also a fantastic leader and a fantastic motivator. He is the engine that runs this team.

Bird was also a great passer... a triple double machine. Great versatility for your PF spot.

Quote: Originally Posted by iLLosophy

Let me rephrase...if you are a Zeke fan, and he was a must have, then you picked him at the right time. Because someone else would've picked him then due to all his hype. But if you're looking at the order of draft picks, and compare it to order of talent, you picked him too high. He the 2nd point guard picked (not counting combo guards), when there were a handful of more talented point guards available....Nash, CP3, Cousy, Stockton just to come to mind. Isiah was arguably the 2nd best point guard of the 80's, but not one of the top 2 PG's ever. Disagree, CP3 can score anywhere on the court. Isiah was a horrible three point shooter. The only thing CP3 doesn't have is Zeke's speed...and...for lack of better word...."audacity" In regards to Mikan, he's my 11th/12th man. And his fragility - Mikan didn't have ACL tears, or a strained back, or arthritis in his knee...his injuries consisted of broken kneecap, broken nose, teeth knocked out, hundreds of stitches. Those aren't wear and tear injuries, those are injuries from getting your *** kicked. He wasn't frail, he was a big giant target for physical abuse, and opponents did anything they could to try and stop him....and even through all his broken bones and lacerations, he played through almost all his injuries - broken bones and all. And many times still came out the winner.

Funny thing is I'm not a Zeke fan at all and I'm a HUGE CP3 fan, but I couldn't disagree with you more. I hope CP3 ends his career among the elite and think there are plenty of young guys now that could carve their place too, but currently Thomas is the 2nd best PG of all time imo. And I point to one area we can discuss where you can't even bring CP3 or Stockton to the argument... championships. Zeke was the best player on a dynasty team. Could Paul average 28 pts, 7 assists and 5 rebounds in the finals? It's possible but we currently don't know. He hasn't led his team to back to back championships.

I wanted to build my team around a PG and C that were both leaders, champions and HOFs and stars on both offense and defense and Thomas was the head of the "Bad Boys" monster that was one of the best defensive teams to date. I think he's a jerk (and thought he was while he was playing) but I think you're seriously underrating him.

I still agree about Mikan though. He was a tough SOB. It'd take a thread as long as, oh I don't know, the already active thread here to get into how well skills would translate but that goes with about half the guys picked.

Quote:

Yeah I've been trying to dissect his team and the only thing I can come up with is that, if Jordan goes down they are severely screwed. That and 3pt shooting by the starters, but he has decent shooters on the bench. Then there's the argument that there wasn't much Competition in the 90s, but growing up watching the bulls, my bias won't allow me to completely concede to that either. He did get fortunate by getting Jordan, but 55 did an excellent job of providing a surrounding cast especially on defense.

There was plenty of competition in the 90's, it just wasn't good enough to take down a team that had MJ, another HOFer and a great defense (and later, yet another HOFer).

I really like that he paired MJ with Pippen and brought in other great defenders to fill out the starting lineup, but against a league full of HOFers and stars, I don't even think MJ is enough to overcome that weak of a bench. Plus the Clippers owner now has CP3 and if D12 decided to come join him and Blake next year and they won multiple rings we'd still call that guy an idiot. I can't give 55 too much credit for picking Jordan. That should've made the rest even easier.

I will hate on AlexBrady for taking Wilt first though. Your philosophy is to run the triangle offense. I think I remember Jordan doing pretty well in that offense.

[AlexBrady]

Starting Five:

PG- Lenny Wilkens
SG: Hal Greer
SF: John Havlicek
PF: Dave DeBusschere
C: Wilt Chamberlain

Bench:

6- Bill Sharman- SG
7- Gus Johnson- SF/PF
8- Lamar Odom- SF/PF
9- Jerry Lucas- PF/C
10- Ron Harper- PG/SG
11- Scott Wedman- SF
12- Zelmo Beaty- C

Details:

The foundation of this team will be the Triangle offense, which would harmonize and maximize everyone's skills. For the offense to work, you need aggressive cutters/screeners, a dreadnaught big man, and perimeter shooters.

Lenny Wilkens is the point man because he would get the ball out of his hands quickly and initiate the offense. Hal Greer would be counted on to make perimeter shots. John Havlicek would always be in motion. Dave DeBusschere would be a blue collar guy, screening, cutting, boxing out, and locking his man up. Wilt would anchor the Triangle and bend defenses into disproportionate alignments. It would be near impossible for the opponent to play deny defense on the four players without the ball, mainly because they'll constantly be in motion.

The ideal situation we want to create is a three man triangle with Wilt on the left box, Greer on the strong-side baseline, and Havlicek on the strong-side wing. If Hondo makes the entry pass into Wilt, then Greer makes a quick baseline cut, Hondo cuts through the top of the lane to set a screen for DeBusschere, who will then cut to the foul line for an open jumper.
If Greer makes the entry pass, then he and Hondo will execute a squeeze action where Greer moves up to screen for Hondo, who then dive cuts while Greer fans out to open space. Wilt would have the space to go one on one here if he wanted.
If Hondo on the strong-side wing doesn't make the entry pass and instead passes to a lagging Wilkens, then Greer makes a determined baseline cut and receives either a staggered screen from Wilt and DeBusschere or a double screen from Wilt and Hondo.
If Wilkens can't make that pass to Greer, then DeBusschere comes up to set a high screen for Wilkens to take his left hand to the basket. Or DeBusschere could clear out and let Wilkens go one on one.

On defense, we'll play close to the vest with as little gambling as possible. Won't switch on ball screens. I drafted guys who were going to play in disciplined contain positions.
The second unit will look to run more on offense. Would try to press and trap more on defense.

This team would always play with courage, smarts and determination. No matter the score, they would almost always walk off the court as winners.

My defense for not taking Jordan number one: I thought I could get a do everything shooting guard later on in the draft. If I took Jordan first, I wouldn't have gotten a high scoring, passing, powerhouse big man.
My defense for taking Lenny Wilkens at 25: Mea Culpa!

[Chrisksaint]

55 and then Kashanova as a close 2nd

[Hotobu]

...yeeeaahh.. 55 killed all of y'all. 3 out of the 5 guys in his starting lineup have a convincing argument as the best defensive players ever to play their position... and then there's KG and Mutumbo who would could easily be argued for top 3 in those positions as well. The other advantage is that Pippen and Jordan played their careers together so there's instant chemistry there. The only drawback is how well Pippen and Payton can play together seeing as they were both primary ball handlers.

I also like his bench. Not the best defense outside of the center position, but pretty good offense, and complimentary players.

Second place is kashanova. That team's got a loooooooot of offense. If the game was played with two balls at one time this would be the best team. I also like that Stockton and Malone played together, and you'll NEED a PG like Stockton to spread the ball around.

[st0rmb11]

Let's do something similar to the wrestling draft analysis here. choose 5 categories (offense, defense, chemistry, longevity (taking injury and personal problems into account), and depth)

anyone else interested in that?

EDIT - ah, screw it, I'll do that anyway.

[iLLosophy]

Quote: Originally Posted by st0rmb11

Let's do something similar to the wrestling draft analysis here. choose 5 categories (offense, defense, chemistry, longevity (taking injury and personal problems into account), and depth) anyone else interested in that? EDIT - ah, screw it, I'll do that anyway.

Is defense even a contest?

[st0rmb11]

AlexBrady

Offense - outside of Wilt & Hondo, I don't see too much consistent, go-to firepower. I also don't trust that you could get Wilt to pass the ball enough to run a triangle. That being said, you still have Wilt and Havlicek. 8/10

Defense - you have Wilt, who likely averaged well over 5 blocks per game for his career (sadly, they didn't keep track of these things back then). Hondo, Harper, Williams, & Odom are all solid defenders on the perimeter. But I don't trust Sharman, Lenny, or Greer guarding guys like Wade, Carter, Jordan, Kobe, Isiah, Paul, etc. However, I can't discount how huge Wilt would be inside. Not to mention, you're pretty covered at the most important part of defense - defensive rebounding. 8/10

Chemistry - outside of Wilt, I don't see many egos on this team. That being said, Wilt was a HUGE ego. The first time you ask him to defer to Havlicek in crunch time, he's going to ruin any chemistry you have. I do worry about Wilt and Lucas co-existing. Both guys were stat driven (Wilt with points, rebounds, & blocks; Lucas with rebounds). I wonder how many boards they would give up because the two of them would run over each other seeking a board. 8/10

Durability - not too many injury issues here, that I can think of. Ron Harper had knee issues; Gus Johnson missed quite a few games; but other than that, not much - Wilt rarely missed games; DeBusschere rarely missed games; Havlicek NEVER missed games; Greer rarely missed. I think you get the picture. You have a tough, durable team. 10/10

Depth - I hope Wilt never comes out of the game for you because you have no productive back up center (unless you want to go small with DeBusschere & Lucas at the 4 & 5, in which case you would get killed by a good center.) Your forward positions are by far the deepest. However, I don't like your shooting guard position. I say 7/10 here

Total - 41/50


55

Offense - you have the greatest scorer ever, in Michael Jordan. You have the best point forward ever, in Scottie Pippen. Chris Mullin can get you buckets off the bench, as can VC. Lever, Billups, & Payton are very good passers. However, I have to penalize you for having Eaton, Wallace, & Mutombo - none of whom can score. 8/10

Defense - I would worry about your offense not getting you enough points IF you didn't have the greatest defensive team ever assembled. Jordan, Pippen, & Payton will keep any guards from getting into the paint. and if they do, Garnett, Mutombo, Wallace, & Eaton will throw shots out, left & right. Mullin & Carter are below average defenders, but I really don't penalize you for that, at all. 10/10 (I would give you higher if I could)

Chemistry - I actually don't see chemistry being much of an issue here. No egotists (with the exception of Horace Grant & Gary Payton), but with Pippen, Garnett, & Jordan, I wouldn't worry about that being much of an issue. I would worry that Carter's laziness would drive some of the guys crazy, but again, I can't see it ruining the chemistry too much. The biggest worry I see here is you have HIGHLY demanding teammates (Jordan & Garnett). I would worry that these two would be in a struggle for alpha dog status in practice, and this may hurt team chemistry. 9/10

Durability - Jordan never missed games. Pippen didn't miss games during his prime. Garnett, Mutombo, Payton, & Wallace never missed many games during their primes. Carter & Mullin were a bit injury prone throughout their careers, but your core guys won't miss many games. 10/10

Depth - Your starting line up is the most stacked in the draft. You can bring in scorers off the bench with Grant, Carter, Lever, & Mullin. You have the option of being a dick and bringing out a line up of Mutombo, Wallace, Garnett, Jordan, & Pippen at point. Not sure what team would score on that line up, and you still keep 3 good scorers on the floor. I do worry about Lever, Grant, Carter, & Mullin coming in and killing your defense, and seeing as how your team is predicated on defense, I have knock off a point for your lack of defensive depth.9/10

Total - 46/50


Da Throne

Offense - you have 2 of the 3 best passing forwards ever (LeBron & Barry). You have great scorers in LeBron, Barry, Stoudemire, Johnson, & Petrovic. I never saw Ewing or Yao as big inside scoring threats, so all of your top options are scorers who prefer to work 1.) with the ball and 2.) outside of 12 feet from the basket. The biggest problem I see you having here is your point guard - if you have Archibald bring it up, you will have several stagnant offensive possessions because Nate had a tendency to dribble down the shot clock, but I won't penalize you too much because he never had great teammates prior to going to Boston. I DO however penalize you for having LeBron, Ewing, & Kevin Johnson on the same team...you can't get away with 2 of your starters being well known choke artists. 8/10

Defense - Ewing: great defender. LeBron: great defender. Rodman: incredible defender. Barry: solid off ball defender who jumps passing lanes well. I don't like your guard defenders - Tiny, KJ, Monroe, Drazen, & Joe Johnson: all average (at best) on ball defenders, so Ewing will be asked to do a lot of protecting, which means he'll have to leave his man far too often. That being said, you could put a line up of Yao, Ewing, LeBron, Rodman, & Barry on the floor, and have some good defense going on. 8/10

Chemistry - you have a world class prick in Rick Barry. I don't know if he could co-exist with two other somewhat selfish players, in Archibald & Amare. I worry that with some soft players (Ewing, Yao, LeBron, & KJ), Barry may ruin their confidence over the course of...oh, a week or so. I would also worry that Barry would get in Oakley or Rodman's face, which would result in you losing Barry for a while because if Oakley went after Barry, none of Barry's teammates would step in to help Rick. If you could keep Barry happy, I don't see any issues..but that's a huge if. 7/10

Durability - Rodman never missed games. LeBron never misses games. Rick Barry had a few seasons where he missed some games, but played all the time, for the most part. Kevin Johnson always seemed to miss handful of games every year. Archibald had a few years where he only played between 30 and 50 games. Ewing didn't miss many games during his prime. Amare has had some injury ruined seasons. Joe Johnson rarely misses games. Yao was always injury prone. I say 8/10 here because during their primes, Barry, Ewing, Rodman, & LeBron never missed games. I have to penalize you for Yao, Amare, & KJ being a bit injury prone, though.

Depth - You have decent center depth. Your power forward depth is solid, and each one of them can offer different things. Rodman - defense & rebounding. Amare - scoring. Oakley - rebounding & toughness. Small forward is your deepest position - LeBron, Barry, you could slide Rodman down to SF, you could slide Joe Johnson up to SF. I feel that your shooting guard position is weak. 2 one dimensional players - they can both score very well, but neither are great creators. Your point guard position is solid, as well. Solid combination of passing & scoring (though Monroe was never a great assist man). I don't recall looking at what you said your starting line up would be, but I would imagine you would have to go Ewing, Amare, LeBron, Barry, Tiny. With this line up, you can do a lot more with your subs than if you had Barry on the bench & Drazen starting. Also, Rodman would be more valuable if you could bring him off the bench for 3 positions. 8/10

Total - 39/50

EDIT - I'll be back to do more