G.O.A.T Micheal Jordan vs Larry Bird was Jordan the best ever?

[ojandpizza]

Jordan didn't hurt his teams defense, and the points you previously made do not reflect that at all anyways. You're cherry picking small things and twisting them in a way to try and fabricate an argument out of nothing. Which is why I called it irrelevant information.




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[OSUFan_88]

Quote: Originally Posted by jjsmity

you said "Bird's short, brief stint in the NBA as an elite player." I wonder what you would base that on? 13 years a elite player as jordan said even after all the injuries in 92 he said After Bird was named to the U.S. Olympic team last September, a reporter offered Jordan the opinion that Bird, while great in his day, had been largely a symbolic choice for the team. Jordan looked incredulous and even a little disgusted. ''I don't care how old or in pain Larry Bird is,'' said Jordan. ''You name me a forward in this league who's not already on the team [that eliminated Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Scottie Pippen and Chris Mullin] who can rebound, throw the outlet pass to get the break going, shoot the three- pointer, play in the half-court and has the presence of Bird.'' http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...1992flash.html

Yes, but we are talking about GOAT. Bird was clearly past his GOAT status by the age of 30-31. Now his career until that point was amazing, one of the very best you will ever see. However, when his back started to go and he couldn't stay on the floor and be as productive, that's when he became an all-star.

I can understand why you would say that even after, he was a great player. He was, he was very great. However...I'd take every single one of the 13 Jordan years over Bird's last 4 years in the NBA. Which would leave him with roughly 8 or 9 years of relative dominance. And while he was truly amazing at his peak, it just simply was not long enough.

Quote:

jordan had 13 years with Chicago, 2 with washington. Also remember that he was a great player, but not a threat to win a championship for many years entering league, were as bird was all years, but his injury plagues last two seasons.

Well, let's be honest, when Bird entered the NBA, he didn't face nearly the same amount of talent in either division that Jordan did. Jordan had the Larry Celtics, the Magic Lakers, then the Bad Boys, then he started his roll. Who did Larry have? Fellow rookie Magic? That's about it...

Jordan still, somehow, ended up with more titles than Magic and Bird, although I'd suspect Magic would have had 2 or 3 more if he didn't contract HIV.

Quote:

The rest sounds good to me and magic vs jordan would be nice to look at same as bird vs magic.

Bird vs Magic is really tough for me, as is Magic vs Jordan. The problem is that at one point, Jordan and Bird were both outstanding shooters. Magic never really had a great year shooting the ball. His only year he was even average was 88-89.

God it sucks Magic got HIV. He probably still had, roughly, 3 more years of his peak left if he didn't get HIV. And even when he came back in 95-96, he still showed he was more than capable.

I think the more realistic saying would be if Magic didn't get HIV, he'd be considered the GOAT.

[RedSceptile]

Homie did the same thing with his Celtics post so that's literally why I didn't even bother responding. Cherry picking information, trying to skew stats and so forth.

[jjsmity]

Quote: Originally Posted by ojandpizza

Jordan didn't hurt his teams defense, and the points you previously made do not reflect that at all anyways. You're cherry picking small things and twisting them in a way to try and fabricate an argument out of nothing. Which is why I called it irrelevant information. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

please support your claim of cherry picking and show me example were i have done so.

I showed that when bird joined the c's they got better at d drastically. I than showed when he left past prime they got worse at d....stay with me. I showed his stats prove that. Birds main attribute on the d end was his help d regarded as best in his day. Showing it should not be surprise that he helped his team and that is what we see from his defense. Please show how/why this is cherry picking. The reason you do not respond is because you know stats and facts cannot be used "twisting" to help jordan as facts speak truth. Just the reason you do not respond.


I showed jordan when he joined league the bulls got worse at def points allowed and def rating as a team. I than showed when he left in his prime [ baseball] his team than got better at defense. To any ovious and unbiased thinking man, would have to conclude those are linked. If this is cherry picking please exspalin why. I also provided multiple reasons to exsplain this. it is one thing to make a claim about my post, very different to back up your claim.

Quote: Originally Posted by OSUFan_88

Yes, but we are talking about GOAT. Bird was clearly past his GOAT status by the age of 30-31. Now his career until that point was amazing, one of the very best you will ever see. However, when his back started to go and he couldn't stay on the floor and be as productive, that's when he became an all-star. I can understand why you would say that even after, he was a great player. He was, he was very great. However...I'd take every single one of the 13 Jordan years over Bird's last 4 years in the NBA. Which would leave him with roughly 8 or 9 years of relative dominance. And while he was truly amazing at his peak, it just simply was not long enough. Well, let's be honest, when Bird entered the NBA, he didn't face nearly the same amount of talent in either division that Jordan did. Jordan had the Larry Celtics, the Magic Lakers, then the Bad Boys, then he started his roll. Who did Larry have? Fellow rookie Magic? That's about it... Jordan still, somehow, ended up with more titles than Magic and Bird, although I'd suspect Magic would have had 2 or 3 more if he didn't contract HIV. Bird vs Magic is really tough for me, as is Magic vs Jordan. The problem is that at one point, Jordan and Bird were both outstanding shooters. Magic never really had a great year shooting the ball. His only year he was even average was 88-89. God it sucks Magic got HIV. He probably still had, roughly, 3 more years of his peak left if he didn't get HIV. And even when he came back in 95-96, he still showed he was more than capable. I think the more realistic saying would be if Magic didn't get HIV, he'd be considered the GOAT.

Bird past goat at 30-31? I must call you crazy hear. Please read up on bird before you claim, or at least back up please.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../birdla01.html


and if past goat, why than when he was 31 in 87-88 did he come so close in mvp voting [ arguable should have won] and be runner up to mj?. Ahead of magic? who i think you said was a goat comparable to mj?and in his prime.

bird stat line at 31 when you say post goat prime

runner up mvp narrow loss to mj, ahead of magic in his prime.all nba first team

29.9 ppg 9.3 rpg 6.1 ast ..527fg .414 3pt .916 ft 9.3 reb 6.1 ast 1,7 stl

not bad for a post prime player. He became a all star and all nba second team beginning in 89-90 after injury at 33. Than he was a great player not a goat player.


"I'd take every single one of the 13 Jordan years over Bird's last 4 years in the NBA"


debatable, I would say his last 4 besides 89-90 yes.


you said
"Well, let's be honest, when Bird entered the NBA, he didn't face nearly the same amount of talent in either division that Jordan did. Jordan had the Larry Celtics, the Magic Lakers, then the Bad Boys, then he started his roll. Who did Larry have? Fellow rookie Magic? That's about it..."


? really? ever heard of moses malone? dr j? kareem?magic? etc

bird started in 80, jordan in 84 that is not man years different and you will see many say the 80's was weakest in mid 84-86.
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...team-ever.html


they say best early and late. Jordan faced same kind of opponents, the difference is he would be swept out first round barley making playoffs, bird would compete for finals. Jordan himself would admit he was considered a great player, but not a goat level of magic and bird the first 3 years. Bird was considered for mvp first year,look at impact he made compared to jordan first 3 years [op] bird goat level right from start not so with jordan.


you said
"Jordan still, somehow, ended up with more titles than Magic and Bird, although I'd suspect Magic would have had 2 or 3 more if he didn't contract HIV."


please read op and here

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...a-history.html




I say magic is considered for goat as is.

Quote: Originally Posted by RedSceptile

Homie did the same thing with his Celtics post so that's literally why I didn't even bother responding. Cherry picking information, trying to skew stats and so forth.

please support your claim of cherry picking and show me example were i have done so.

[Webbie2689]

Are you the same delusional meathead that spent years over at the official 2K forum trying to convince everyone there that Bird was the better player and MJ was overrated?

For your sake I certainly hope not, but I'm pretty sure it's you again.

[jjsmity]

Quote: Originally Posted by Webbie2689

Are you the same delusional meathead that spent years over at the official 2K forum trying to convince everyone there that Bird was the better player and MJ was overrated? For your sake I certainly hope not, but I'm pretty sure it's you again.

same " delusional meathead". I have been called worse justifiable so I may add. Good to see someone from 2 k forum. I gave up awhile back when none was on or willing to debate. People hear have allot more knowledge of NBA. I also gave up on 2k games, until they let you use classic teams online, you?

[Webbie2689]

Quote: Originally Posted by jjsmity

same " delusional meathead". I have been called worse justifiable so I may add. Good to see someone from 2 k forum. I gave up awhile back when none was on or willing to debate. People hear have allot more knowledge of NBA. I also gave up on 2k games, until they let you use classic teams online, you?

That was back in 2012, and you're STILL trying to debate this? You still haven't found anything better to do with your time?

You make absolutely no sense, and you never did. You admit that MJ is the better player, yet you spend all of your time trying to point out how Bird may have been slightly better in certain areas.

What is the whole point of this discussion for you? Are you some kind of weird troll or something?

[ojandpizza]

Quote: Originally Posted by jjsmity

My opinion as said in op is not that bird is better so much as there are around 6 players in nba history that could all be argued as best ever, bird is so often underrated and jordan over that i chose those two. defense bird vs jordan so far the arguments for jordan being better are two opinions saying he is better. Than to respond to the stats/results and how they impacted their team on defense showing bird helped team more [not better individual defender by no means] on defense, the response is " irrelevant information that isn't even worth mentioning." so your opinion is jordan is better because defense [ i judge by total impact not defense alone] even when show the contrary by stats/results etc. Do you see why someone like me comes away thinking jordan is so great in peoples minds but not in reality? its your opinion and that is fine to have, but truth and stats dont lie, opinions can. I am not one to jump on the bandwagon just because people say so, i look into why. When i do i see jordans best argument [his defense vs bird 1v1 far better] is actually shows bird meant more to his team defense, for reasons i posted that you find not worth mentioning [likely because you support mj]. just to be clear jordan better than bird by miles 1v1 defense, overall helping team defense bird helped team more than jordan who hurt his team. since you state you opinion is not based on any argument you wish to present saying jordan better than bird on d, than i must refrain from a response unless you so chose to make a argument in support of jordan being better, you would be the first.. .

Your reasons provided are completely invalid though, they don't hold any weight, nor do they show that Jordan meant less to his teams defense. You saying that Jordan hurt his team is a joke.

You used opponent ppg and defensive rating changing from 93 to 94 as your argument to making the Bulls worse defensively with him. But in order to directly correlate that to Jordan being gone is assuming that everything else in the league is a constant. No roster changes, no retirements, no coaching changes, no player progression, no player regression, no minute changes, etc.. Everything in the league would have to be identical for Jordan's retirement to be the only effecting factor of that stat.

You really don't see how weak of an argument that is? That would be like me saying "Dallas scored more points against San Antonio in the game Kawhi played than they did against them when he was out with injury, therefor they must have a better defense without him even though he's the defensive player of the year". You can't seriously tell me you don't understand how flawed that is, all this time researching for this argument and that's what you're going to post.

You also didn't mention that the losing the most prolific transition scorer in the league caused the Bulls pace to drop. Therefor causing their opponents pace to drop, therefor less shots and therefor less scoring.. No mention of that also playing a factor, hence your "cherry picking" of stats.

You also bring up that Jordan never made an All Defensive team prior to the Bulls getting Pippen and Grant, which "technically" is true, but of course you once again remove all context from it just to fit your point. Jordan made the all NBA first team for the first time in 87-88, the same year he was defensive player of the year. That year Pippen and Grant were ROOKIES who came off the Bulls bench.. But yes, please tell us more how those guys are the ones responsible for him making the All Defensive team. Pippen made his first All Defensive 2nd team in the 90-91 season. 4 years after playing along side Jordan as Jordan was on 4 straight all defensive first teams.. Please again, elaborate on how Pippen was the one who made Jordan the great defender.

And of course, just like every other thread you've started, you only post YOUR side of the argument. You don't acknowledge the other side. How about that Bird was a poor positional defender. Forwards quicker than him McHale had to defender, bigger than him McHale had to defend, quick perimeter players Johnson had to defend.. And you're sitting here making the claim that Jordan's teammates made him the defender he was. Bird's teammates allowed him to be hidden on whatever mediocre player they needed him on. Meanwhile McHale makes 6 defensive team awards, Johnson 3, both making first team selections while Bird never did.. So by your logic by being the best or 2nd best defender on the team at any given time, verses being the 3rd to 4th best defensive option on his team at any given time that Bird was the one influencing his team defense while the Bulls were the ones influencing Jordan's defense?

If you want to say Bird was an underrated defender, fine. If you want to say Jordan was an overrated defender, fine. But to try and bring together random "facts" to try and bridge the gap is reaching, big time. And your so called "stats" that back your claim are extremely empty and meaningless.


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