ESPN Presents: The Last Dance, a 10-part documentary on 97-98 Chicago Bulls

[stlducks]

Quote: Originally Posted by pietasterp

I think this is my issue with this whole MJ puff piece masquerading as some kind of a documentary. For the guys that were around at that time and remember the games and players, we all have our own opinions and most of you disagree with me, but at least you saw the games (mostly) through your own eyes, although maybe influenced by the NY/Boston/LA based media. Nevertheless, you saw it for yourself. However, for those of you who weren't around at the time or were too young to remember, this MJ-produced propaganda is just brainwashing people into having the opinion that MJ wants you to have, with ESPN entirely complicit in the gambit. This is "Triumph of the Will" starring the Chicago Bulls. Why does MJ/Pippen/ESPN get to define who the Bad Boys Pistons were? What their legacy was? How great Isiah was? This whole narrative that they were just a bunch of talent-less thugs that punched and shoved their way to 3 straight NBA finals (all of which they should have won) and no one wanted to see them win is MJ and the NY Daily News talking. Funny how the Riley-era Knicks, who were at the least as dirty as the Bad Boys were (albeit far less talented) are portrayed as a "tough" "gritty" team, but Detroit is a bunch of low-lifes. It's horse manure being shoveled every Sunday night to a content-starved nation that either doesn't know or doesn't care about anything other than what ESPN tells you happened. Nothing that is being presented in this series is "truth" or "information". It's "the world according to MJ", produced by MJ's production company, edited for content by MJ's people, with final cut approval from MJ, for the express purpose of burnishing MJ's legacy and "brand". There is a reason Ken Burns decried the whole enterprise as something he would never agree to doing.

My view on the bad boy Pistons is based almost entirely on the 30 for 30 about the Pistons in which the players themselves gave interviews. The players called themselves dirty at times.

And while I have seen people call them dirty on here, myself included. I have not seen anyone call them talent less or say they should not make the finals.

[King_B_Mack]

Quote: Originally Posted by pietasterp

I think this is my issue with this whole MJ puff piece masquerading as some kind of a documentary. For the guys that were around at that time and remember the games and players, we all have our own opinions and most of you disagree with me, but at least you saw the games (mostly) through your own eyes, although maybe influenced by the NY/Boston/LA based media. Nevertheless, you saw it for yourself. However, for those of you who weren't around at the time or were too young to remember, this MJ-produced propaganda is just brainwashing people into having the opinion that MJ wants you to have, with ESPN entirely complicit in the gambit. This is "Triumph of the Will" starring the Chicago Bulls. Why does MJ/Pippen/ESPN get to define who the Bad Boys Pistons were? What their legacy was? How great Isiah was? This whole narrative that they were just a bunch of talent-less thugs that punched and shoved their way to 3 straight NBA finals (all of which they should have won) and no one wanted to see them win is MJ and the NY Daily News talking. Funny how the Riley-era Knicks, who were at the least as dirty as the Bad Boys were (albeit far less talented) are portrayed as a "tough" "gritty" team, but Detroit is a bunch of low-lifes. It's horse manure being shoveled every Sunday night to a content-starved nation that either doesn't know or doesn't care about anything other than what ESPN tells you happened. Nothing that is being presented in this series is "truth" or "information". It's "the world according to MJ", produced by MJ's production company, edited for content by MJ's people, with final cut approval from MJ, for the express purpose of burnishing MJ's legacy and "brand". There is a reason Ken Burns decried the whole enterprise as something he would never agree to doing.

That hyperbole train is never late.

Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[DieHardYankee26]

Quote: Originally Posted by Junior Moe

They did Kukoc wrong, man! I also like the background on the whole "Republicans wear sneakers" comment. I dont mind when athletes speak politically. "Joe The Plumber" was an actual thing in this country but athletes should stick to sports. Yeah, ok... I like, for the most part, LeBron and the NBAs political stances. At the same time, I dont think athletes should be pressured into weighing in on issues if they dont personally care about it. That's wrong. Mike shouldn't be vilified for that. Whatever a person's reason for getting in the political sphere is theres and theres alone. Sent from my SM-G950U using Operation Sports mobile app

Reminded me of the minor leaguers getting paid peanuts when everyone in the majors came through that system but doesn’t care because they made it out. Dude complained about his racist hometown, said he couldn’t wait to get out, and then you don’t care about this when you have a chance to make a difference? Streets is done.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Quote: Originally Posted by DieHardYankee26

Reminded me of the minor leaguers getting paid peanuts when everyone in the majors came through that system but doesn’t care because they made it out. Dude complained about his racist hometown, said he couldn’t wait to get out, and then you don’t care about this when you have a chance to make a difference? Streets is done.

What was his exact reasoning again?

[Sportsforever]

Quote: Originally Posted by pietasterp

https://www.esquire.com/entertainmen...dan-criticism/ Ken Burns said he’s not a fan of The Last Dance. Mostly, because Jordan’s production company, Jump 23, is involved with the project. "I find it the opposite direction of where we need to be going,” Burns said. “If you are there influencing the very fact of it getting made, it means that certain aspects that you don’t necessarily want in aren’t going to be in, period." Burns, who is no stranger to the sports-doc scene, having directed Ken Burns’ Baseball, added that he would "never, never, never, never” agree to those terms if he was in charge. “And that’s not the way you do good journalism,...and it’s certainly not the way you do good history, [which is] my business," he said.

Look, I love Ken Burns "Baseball"...I've watched it probably 10 times. The fact that Burns says "...history is my business" is hilarious to me. Every single documentary ever made is from a certain POV and is therefore biased. Burns "Baseball" is full of historical inaccuracies and for being nearly 20 hours long, focuses on a very specific POV of baseball history.

I get what he's saying...but he needs to get off his high horse. A documentary is "documenting" something...it will always leave things out, tell the story a certain way, etc. I have no idea why he feels the need to even speak out on this.

[VDusen04]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sportsforever

Look, I love Ken Burns "Baseball"...I've watched it probably 10 times. The fact that Burns says "...history is my business" is hilarious to me. Every single documentary ever made is from a certain POV and is therefore biased. Burns "Baseball" is full of historical inaccuracies and for being nearly 20 hours long, focuses on a very specific POV of baseball history. I get what he's saying...but he needs to get off his high horse. A documentary is "documenting" something...it will always leave things out, tell the story a certain way, etc. I have no idea why he feels the need to even speak out on this.

I don't think there's a high horse here.

The hyperlink to the WSJ interview with Ken Burns (where the comments originated) doesn't work for me (404 not found) but I think there's at least a fair shot that WSJ could have been the ones to ask Burns about The Last Dance in the first place, as opposed to him going to his Twitter soap box and decrying for all to hear out of nowhere. As such, it's completely fair and understandable for Burns to share his professional (and valid) opinion.

Regarding the existence of bias, sure, if we want to get all existential, we all have some semblance of bias and even attempting to remove all bias will be showing bias toward removing bias (or something along those lines). But I think we can all understand pretty clearly that there's a difference between a documentary created by a third party and one that's made in direct partnership with the primary focus of the documentary itself.

That said, I think we're making a bigger deal of this than it is. Ken Burns was prompted on his thoughts regarding The Last Dance and he provided them. He's not wrong. But it's also not like he's on some kind of vindictive crusade. It was a single interview picked up by the online media wires.

[Sportsforever]

Quote: Originally Posted by VDusen04

I don't think there's a high horse here. The hyperlink to the WSJ interview with Ken Burns (where the comments originated) doesn't work for me (404 not found) but I think there's at least a fair shot that WSJ could have been the ones to ask Burns about The Last Dance in the first place, as opposed to him going to his Twitter soap box and decrying for all to hear out of nowhere. As such, it's completely fair and understandable for Burns to share his professional (and valid) opinion. Regarding the existence of bias, sure, if we want to get all existential, we all have some semblance of bias and even attempting to remove all bias will be showing bias toward removing bias (or something along those lines). But I think we can all understand pretty clearly that there's a difference between a documentary created by a third party and one that's made in direct partnership with the primary focus of the documentary itself. That said, I think we're making a bigger deal of this than it is. Ken Burns was prompted on his thoughts regarding The Last Dance and he provided them. He's not wrong. But it's also not like he's on some kind of vindictive crusade. It was a single interview picked up by the online media wires.

I don't agree; he states he hasn't/won't even watch it...that could have been his response. Instead, he took the opportunity to state why he doesn't view it as a real documentary and how it's taking journalism where it shouldn't be going. It would be one thing if we all were in the dark about how this was made, but going in you KNOW who is behind it. It's been public knowledge; I go into it with open eyes. The high horse I see him on is the critiquing a documentary he hasn't watched because he thinks it tells history wrong...and he's been guilty of that himself on more than one occasion.

EDIT - BTW, I do think that criticism would be valid if this was a documentary about a serious topic...the JFK assassination, the civil rights movement, etc. We are talking about a basketball player/team.

[pietasterp]

Quote: Originally Posted by stlducks

My view on the bad boy Pistons is based almost entirely on the 30 for 30 about the Pistons in which the players themselves gave interviews. The players called themselves dirty at times. And while I have seen people call them dirty on here, myself included. I have not seen anyone call them talent less or say they should not make the finals.

That's fine, but for many this is the only 'lens' through which they are 'learning' about that era of basketball. And even the 30 for 30 was presented in a certain context, as more of a reaction to decades of media-narrative which was more or less (less, IMO) accurate depending on your point of view.

And MJ, Phil Jackson, etc. definitively stated the Pistons were bad for basketball and that the sport would be better without them.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sportsforever

Look, I love Ken Burns "Baseball"...I've watched it probably 10 times. The fact that Burns says "...history is my business" is hilarious to me. Every single documentary ever made is from a certain POV and is therefore biased. Burns "Baseball" is full of historical inaccuracies and for being nearly 20 hours long, focuses on a very specific POV of baseball history. I get what he's saying...but he needs to get off his high horse. A documentary is "documenting" something...it will always leave things out, tell the story a certain way, etc. I have no idea why he feels the need to even speak out on this.

Of course every documentary is made from a POV. But you can't seriously be drawing an equivalency between the inherent subjectiveness of a filmmaker's very act of filmmaking, and having the personal production company of the central subject of a film making the actual film, can you? You are saying that because "Baseball" has some inaccuracies, it is no different than "Trimuph of the Will". That doesn't seem to be a very defendable position to me...

Even if I stipulate that Ken Burns' "Baseball" does have inaccuracies, what it doesn't have is Ty Cobb's family or Pete Rose deciding what went into the film and how it was portrayed. If Ken Burns saying history is his business is "hilarious" to you, then it would be interesting to me to hear who you consider a historian. Edward Gibbon? Herodotus?

Quote: Originally Posted by King_B_Mack

That hyperbole train is never late. Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

Says the guy with the Bulls avatar. (Tu quoque!)