at which position is it easiest to become an all-time great?

[Chip Douglass]

Quote: Originally Posted by ZB9

meaning what

That any RB with a great OL can become great (although I don't think it's fair to assume that Smith was the product of a great OL. Case in point, the Weeks 1-2 1993 Cowboys).

Just look at Shaun Alexander/Priest Holmes. They're not all-time greats, but it's the same type of thing.

[ZB9]

Quote: Originally Posted by Olson-for-Heisman

That any RB with a great OL can become great (although I don't think it's fair to assume that Smith was the product of a great OL. Case in point, the Weeks 1-2 1993 Cowboys). Just look at Shaun Alexander/Priest Holmes. They're not all-time greats, but it's the same type of thing.

then that would be true with pretty much every position wouldnt it?

for example, a QB with a great WR and vice versa, a corner or safety playing behind a legendary pass rushing front 7, an offensive lineman blocking for a legendary QB or RB....etc

[Cebby]

Quote: Originally Posted by ZB9

then that would be true with pretty much every position wouldnt it? for example, a QB with a great WR and vice versa, a corner or safety playing behind a legendary pass rushing front 7, an offensive lineman blocking for a legendary QB or RB....etc

Not really

Look at Denver's late 90s-early 2000s RBs. Name some players at other positions who had the kind of jumps like Denver, Kansas City, Indy, and Shaun Alexander had. You had guys going from "eh" to All Pro and vise versa overnight.

[ZB9]

Quote: Originally Posted by Cebby

Not really

Mel Blount for example, he probably would have been a great player even if he played with the Cardinals or Saints, but no one would have known it. Playing behind those legendary Steelers pass rushers (obviously leading to more INT and PBU opportunities) and winning all of those games as a leader of the Steel Curtain made him a HOF'er

Quote:

Look at Denver's late 90s-early 2000s RBs. Name some players at other positions who had the kind of jumps like Denver, Kansas City, Indy, and Shaun Alexander had. You had guys going from "eh" to All Pro and vise versa overnight.

and you have seen plenty of linemen go from "eh" to All Pro with a great back behind them as well

Mark Tunei (converted DT who had been with Dallas since the 80s), Nate Newton (UDFA cut by Redskins, signed with Dallas in 1985), and Kevin Gogan...those guys were good players but not dominant pro bowlers before Emmitt got there, especially not the year before Emmitt got there when they went 1-15. The triplets arrive, and all of a sudden those three linemen are pro bowlers.

A main key to being considered a great lineman is to be on a winning team. Look at Leonard Davis for example. When he was with the Cardinals, he was considered to be headed to bustville. He signs with Dallas, and boom he's a 3 time pro bowler and one of the best linemen in the league

[legendkiller5]

Quote: Originally Posted by Olson-for-Heisman

That any RB with a great OL can become great (although I don't think it's fair to assume that Smith was the product of a great OL. Case in point, the Weeks 1-2 1993 Cowboys). Just look at Shaun Alexander/Priest Holmes. They're not all-time greats, but it's the same type of thing.

This, but to a certain extent. To me, a RB's deficiencies may not hurt him as much as they can for a QB, especially when said RB has good to great players surrounding him, i.e. Emmitt.

[MrNFL_FanIQ]

Quarterback. They get all of the attention anyway, and so much of what they do is dependent on what system they have and the players they have around them.

Terry Bradshaw, when you compare him to other quarterbacks of his era, wasn't overly impressive, but played on ABSURDLY good teams, thus, Hall of Fame. So on and so forth.

[ZB9]

Quote: Originally Posted by legendkiller5

This, but to a certain extent. To me, a RB's deficiencies may not hurt him as much as they can for a QB, especially when said RB has good to great players surrounding him, i.e. Emmitt.

a running backs deficiencies would become very clear playing in the rugged NFC East of the 90s as well as against all time great teams like those 49ers, Packers, and Bills...

[Cebby]

Quote: Originally Posted by ZB9

Mel Blount for example, he probably would have been a great player even if he played with the Cardinals or Saints, but no one would have known it. Playing behind those legendary Steelers pass rushers (obviously leading to more INT and PBU opportunities) and winning all of those games as a leader of the Steel Curtain made him a HOF'er

There wasn't a before/after with him. It's impossible to know whether or not his success was the result of a system or him. Given that his two best years were 7 years apart, I'd say it was mostly him.

There are simple ways to tell this with running backs.

Quote:

Mark Tunei (converted DT who had been with Dallas since the 80s), Nate Newton (UDFA cut by Redskins, signed with Dallas in 1985), and Kevin Gogan...those guys were good players but not dominant pro bowlers before Emmitt got there, especially not the year before Emmitt got there when they went 1-15.

1. While I obviously didn't watch much 1980s Dallas football, statistically they had pretty good rushing offenses aside from 1989. They had a Pro Bowler in 87 and 88 and were #3 in rushing TDs and #5 in YPC in 86.

2. Everyone on good teams make the Pro Bowl, especially with Dallas. They weren't exactly dominant Pro Bowlers or all time greats after Troy, Emmitt, and Irvin got there. Combined the 3 made 8 Pro Bowls in Dallas and Gogan's 3 Pro Bowls came for other teams. An all time great on the line makes 8 Pro Bowls by himself.

3. You're talking about adding 4 players to the team, 3 of whom were first round draft picks and the other (Allen) who was productive in the decline and absence of the other players.

With running backs there are clearer examples of "great" players being completely interchangeable.

Terrell Davis was a Hall of Famer in 1998 who gets injured in 1999 and is replaced by Olandis Gary who pops in as a rookie and goes for 1150 yards in 12 games who is replaced by Mike Anderson in 2000 who as a rookie in 12 games goes for 1500 yards and 15 TDs and two years later rookie Clinton Portis is a lock for the Hall and possibly breaking Emmitt's record after 2 1500+ yard seasons with a 5.5 YPC average.

In KC Baltimore backup Priest Holmes makes three straight All Pro teams only to be replaced by LJ who makes two straight Pro Bowls and an All Pro team only to immediately suck when his line leaves.

Throw in Shaun Alexander, the revolving door in Indy, and a few others I'm sure I forgot.