Elite Quarterback Guideline

[rangerrick012]

Well Ryan FWIW performed quite well this year and was 10-15 yards from being in the SB, that loss was more on his defense than him IMO.

You still haven't answered how Rivers' drop in production isn't at least somewhat on him and not just bc of a weak supporting cast. Even Lebron in Cleveland was still an MVP, to use your own comparison against you.

What's the difference between Cutler and Rivers? Rivers and Romo? Tell me why Rivers is CLEARLY better than those guys, and please don't refer to 2009, because this is 2013 now and Rivers had obviously declined somewhat even though you want to deny that for some reason.

Why are Wilson/RG3 (healthy) as top 10 guys AT THIS MOMENT (which is what I thought the discussion was) such a ridiculous stance? Both played great this year, very efficient, didn't turn the ball over alot, etc. Obviously they are different types of QBs than Rivers, but can you really clearly say you'd rather have Rivers to lead your team with one game to win than those 2 based on this season?

The main disagreement here is that you don't think it should be 'what have you done for me lately' - again, why shouldn't it? Why do we have to go back 4 years and say that's proof that Rivers can still be elite? I think he can, but then again, why is it such a given when his recent history speaks to otherwise, regardless of supporting cast, and other guys have outperformed him since then?

[SteelersFreak]

Quote: Originally Posted by wwharton

Definitely understand where you're coming from. I personally feel Cam has a lot more to do with what you saw than we can know though. If I go back to last year the team went 12-4 (widely successful in the regular season) and I believe all of their loses were to teams that didn't make the playoffs. In addition they had to make a great comeback (on Flacco's arm) against the Cards to get that win. Watching those games, the offense just didn't look... right. It really felt like they were experimenting in those games, almost using them as live practices. It's reasonable to say you'll wait to see if he'll maintain this now that Cam is gone, but for those who actually have been paying attention for a while, he's been playing VERY well for 3 years now, just not as consistent as some would like. But even with that lets keep in mind the team has gone 12-4, 12-4 and then 10-6 (with the SB) the last three years. That's not a lot of loses to throw a lot of criticism at. I think people have over-analyzed the few loses where he's had bad performances. And around here, I think that's stemmed from us Ravens fans harping on the games, but most of us assumed Cam was the puppeteer creating those situations... we'll see.

Agreed completely, and I completely expect Flacco to be much more consistent next year without Cam.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Quote:

You still haven't answered how Rivers' drop in production isn't at least somewhat on him and not just bc of a weak supporting cast. Even Lebron in Cleveland was still an MVP, to use your own comparison against you.

I've said during the season(and I guess I have to say it now)that Rivers was to blame in some cases as well this season.

And when did I compare Rivers to Lebron? Or can you not tell the difference between me using sarcasm and me being serious?

Quote:

What's the difference between Cutler and Rivers? Rivers and Romo? Tell me why Rivers is CLEARLY better than those guys, and please don't refer to 2009, because this is 2013 now and Rivers had obviously declined somewhat even though you want to deny that for some reason.

When did I ever say Rivers is "CLEARLY"(your word, not mine)better than those 4? When did I ever deny he wasn't declining or are you trying force words in my mouth because you have no other argument? Please find where I said any of those and I'll gladly take back everything I said.

Quote:

Why are Wilson/RG3 (healthy) as top 10 guys AT THIS MOMENT (which is what I thought the discussion was) such a ridiculous stance? Both played great this year, very efficient, didn't turn the ball over alot, etc. Obviously they are different types of QBs than Rivers, but can you really clearly say you'd rather have Rivers to lead your team with one game to win than those 2 based on this season?

I thought the discussion was about the guidelines for Elite Quarterbacks and if that's the case, then obviously there's a reason why it's a ridiculous stance and I'm sure I'm not the only one who supports that.

And it's because they're ****ing Rookies and using 1 season(which is what you're trying to do)is too small of a sample size to determine how they'll do the rest of their career. If that was the case then Cam Newton was probably a Top 10 QB coming into the season. Sure you can make an "argument" but there wouldn't be much logic behind because of the small sample size and this is nothing new. Come on now, you're better than this.

Quote:

The main disagreement here is that you don't think it should be 'what have you done for me lately' - again, why shouldn't it? Why do we have to go back 4 years and say that's proof that Rivers can still be elite? I think he can, but then again, why is it such a given when his recent history speaks to otherwise, regardless of supporting cast, and other guys have outperformed him since then?

Because people have a tendency to get caught up in the moment every time. I guarantee if the 49ers won the SB, you'd have people saying Kaepernick is probably one of the top 2-3 QBs in the game already based on what he done when Smith got knocked out and lost his spot. Or that Alfred Morris is a Top 3 RB based on what he's done this year alone despite it being too small of a sample size. All those are classic definitions of people getting caught up in the moment(or in the now).

FWIW, here's what I originally said in the beginning(emphasis on the bolded parts):

Quote:

I'm trying to figure out what Philip Rivers has done to go from being "near elite(and in some cases "elite")to all of a sudden now a "3rd tier QB". Outside of Gates, he doesn't have a reliable WR, RB or O-Line and he's done as well as you can ask from a franchise QB all things considered.

[rangerrick012]

I had this long, drawn out *** post written out, but **** it. I'll concede that 1 year is too short to consider a guy elite, but also will concede that going back 4 seasons is too long. Point is, Rivers just hasn't produced at that level the past few years, and others have come and put up better numbers and had more team success.

Of course he's had ****ty support, but let's not act like he's the only QB that has to deal with lack of running game, lack of o line, or weak receiving corps. Has he had the short end of the stick here, yeah I'll give you that. But he's also been prone to mistakes that the Rivers of 2008-09 simply wasn't making. That has just as much to do with him not being considered 'near elite' as anything else.

And I don't see how him being overlooked has anything to do with being caught up in the moment, when his team hasn't made the playoffs since 09. Like it or not, the playoffs are what separate average/good QBs from the elite ones, so that's part of why he's not considered on that level anymore.

Just for fun, where do you think he should be rated? I've already laid out:

Brady/Rodgers/Brees/Peyton

Eli/Roethlisberger/Flacco

Ryan/Romo/Rivers/Schaub/Cutler

That 3rd tier are all guys that can win you games when they are on point, but also can make mistakes and turn the ball over to lose you games as well. I don't see how that's a slight to say he isn't on that 2nd tier anymore.

[GrizzlyJuler]

Quote: Originally Posted by ProfessaPackMan

Because people have a tendency to get caught up in the moment every time. I guarantee if the 49ers won the SB, you'd have people saying Kaepernick is probably one of the top 2-3 QBs in the game already based on what he done when Smith got knocked out and lost his spot. Or that Alfred Morris is a Top 3 RB based on what he's done this year alone despite it being too small of a sample size. All those are classic definitions of people getting caught up in the moment(or in the now). FWIW, here's what I originally said in the beginning(emphasis on the bolded parts):

Interesting you brought that up. Kaepernick would certainly be part of the near elite discussion(maybe more) winning it all in your first season seeing significant time makes it that more special. Of course, Flacco on the other hand would fall into that 3rd tier discussion.

Quote:

What's the difference between Cutler and Rivers? Rivers and Romo? Tell me why Rivers is CLEARLY better than those guys, and please don't refer to 2009, because this is 2013 now and Rivers had obviously declined somewhat even though you want to deny that for some reason.

Being a bears fan I want to say cutler is a victim of a bad offense but its a fact that production isn't at the level of Romo and Rivers. Also Cutler's only playoff run ended up him sitting down and watching caleb hanie play the packers for a trip to the superbowl. Now looking at Romo if you look at his yearly regular season statistics you'd think he'd fit into that near elite or maybe elite category. He's capable of amazing performances but unfortunately his worst quarterbacking always appear crucial times in big games. That's the knock on him and unless he wins a ring or at least see some significant post season success he'll always be known as a choker and always criticized being the Cowboys QB. Rivers case I already explained earlier, what seperates rivers from the other two is that he at least seen more success and played in more big games than the other two. Rivers 3-3 in the playoffs while Cutler is 1-1 and Romo is 1-3. Its okay to group them in the 3rd tier because that where they all belong but Rivers is slightly ahead of these two.

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Brady/Rodgers/Brees/Peyton Eli/Roethlisberger/Flacco Ryan/Romo/Rivers/Schaub/Cutler That 3rd tier are all guys that can win you games when they are on point, but also can make mistakes and turn the ball over to lose you games as well. I don't see how that's a slight to say he isn't on that 2nd tier anymore.

IMO:

Brady/Peyton/Rodgers/Brees = Top Elites
Big Ben/Eli = Low End Elite
Flacco = Near Elite
Rivers/Ryan/Romo/Schaub/ = High end Franchise QBs
Cutler/Stafford/Kap/RG3/Wilson/Dalton/Luck/Stafford/Freeman/Newton = Low End Franchise QBs

Its safe to list the first year players in the low end franchise qbs considering they did have significant success in their 1st season. Of course how they rank and which player makes the list in that tier is very debatable.

[wwharton]

About the rookies. I think some feel a list lacks integrity if it can be so easily flipped upside down from year to year. If we were talking about who you'd start your team with, things would be different. But if we're talking about who's elite, that shouldn't be something that jumps around so much. I feel like it should require a large sample size or we'd have lists where guys like Derek Anderson and Carr could poke their heads in.

There are a million football conversations that can be had. Not ever player at said position needs "props" in every one... this just isn't a conversation for rookies or 2nd year players.

[CM Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by rangerrick012

Only one QB has more INTs since 2010, and his name is Sanchez.

A step further - as of November 2012, if one combines sacks and fumbles lost, Rivers had committed more total turnovers than any QB in the league since the start of the 2011 season.

That said, I think it's too easy to pin it on Rivers as that he's declining. I think that he and Tony Romo are in similar situations in that they are both good enough to win, but relative to the rest of the NFL the talent around the two passers at the other ten positions in totality is simply deficient. Moreso for Rivers than Romo, admittedly. Either way, my point is I think they both just try to do too much because they try to pick up the slack of lackluster teammates, to their own demise at times.