Transition based submissions

[johnmangala]

The sub mini game should be replaced with Transition Based Submissions and a grip meter. Here is my version of TBS:

Transitions during subs are escape or advance. Now just you continue down the submission’s transition directions, meanwhile the opponent transitions in the direction of escape. The single objective for each will rotate while you perform swoops and holding directions to advance or escape the submission.

The grip meter determines who wins... it can be affected by strikes or transitions. Finally there should be mobile grappling: the locomotion should be uniform and seamlessly transition from clinch to ground.

[DCowboys22]

Re: Transition based submissions

I think the Submission system should be transition based simply to remain consistent with the overall grappling system. It should be an extension of the same controls, not an entirely separate system.

There are ways to implement this and not be overly complex or confusing to casual gamers.

You can add visual queues for ever stage of a submission (which they already have if you pay attention to the animations behind the current submission Gate overlay), along with smart commentary to let the player know they are in danger.


The current system is not immersive at all. My eyes and focus should always be on the fighters, not some gates.

[SMOKEZERO]

Re: Transition based submissions

While the sub mini game, indeed detracts from the fighters, it is the closest representation to grappling/wrestling the game offers. The current system can also be improved upon. I’m not ready to scrap it until we see what new changes are coming in the next game.


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[rabbitfistssaipailo]

Re: Transition based submissions

I like this ...

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[SHADOW_UFCMMA]

Re: Transition based submissions

The sub mini game should be replaced with Transition Based Submissions and a grip meter. Here is my version of TBS:

Transitions during subs are escape or advance. Now just you continue down the submission’s transition directions, meanwhile the opponent transitions in the direction of escape. The single objective for each will rotate while you perform swoops and holding directions to advance or escape the submission.

The grip meter determines who wins... it can be affected by strikes or transitions. Finally there should be mobile grappling: the locomotion should be uniform and seamlessly transition from clinch to ground.

Dude i remember when you just posted this thread i accidentally put no instead of yes. my fault.

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Transition based submissions

While the sub mini game, indeed detracts from the fighters, it is the closest representation to grappling/wrestling the game offers. The current system can also be improved upon. I’m not ready to scrap it until we see what new changes are coming in the next game.


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Unless I’m misunderstanding, I 1000% disagree. This is absolutely the worst representation of submissions out of the big 3 (UD, EA MMA & UFC). Stamina only plays a role before the sub is initiated and not throughout the submission itself, plus the gates are timed so every single individual standard submission takes the exact same amount of time to complete, nothing realistic about that at all. If someone slaps a RNC on you with Ortega and you’re a worn out McGregor, it’s the same gates timing out for the same 3.5 or whatever seconds a piece, just as it would be any other time using the RNC. Basically, if you have a 5 gate sub slapped on me with 15 sec left, there’s no reason to even play the mini-game since I just know it’s going to take too long to finish in time lol.

There is no true feeling of an actual submission battle. It’s more of a race against the clock than it is a battle between two fighters. It should feel like man vs man, not man vs man vs machine. EA MMA did that best while UD3 was a distant 2nd.

[johnmangala]

Re: Transition based submissions

I think the Submission system should be transition based simply to remain consistent with the overall grappling system. It should be an extension of the same controls, not an entirely separate system.

There are ways to implement this and not be overly complex or confusing to casual gamers.

You can add visual queues for ever stage of a submission (which they already have if you pay attention to the animations behind the current submission Gate overlay), along with smart commentary to let the player know they are in danger.


The current system is not immersive at all. My eyes and focus should always be on the fighters, not some gates.

Unless I’m misunderstanding, I 1000% disagree. This is absolutely the worst representation of submissions out of the big 3 (UD, EA MMA & UFC). Stamina only plays a role before the sub is initiated and not throughout the submission itself, plus the gates are timed so every single individual standard submission takes the exact same amount of time to complete, nothing realistic about that at all. If someone slaps a RNC on you with Ortega and you’re a worn out McGregor, it’s the same gates timing out for the same 3.5 or whatever seconds a piece, just as it would be any other time using the RNC. Basically, if you have a 5 gate sub slapped on me with 15 sec left, there’s no reason to even play the mini-game since I just know it’s going to take too long to finish in time lol.

There is no true feeling of an actual submission battle. It’s more of a race against the clock than it is a battle between two fighters. It should feel like man vs man, not man vs man vs machine. EA MMA did that best while UD3 was a distant 2nd.

That brings up a point- there should be a HUDless submission game. I have an idea for it that is an evolution of the idea I posted earlier that can be played without a HUD:

The subber’s goal is to advance the sub (fill the grip meter) while the subbee’s goal is escape the sub (deplete the grip meter) via transitions, strikes, or movement. You can perform either a minor or major transition. Minor transition is by holding a direction, while major is a swoop...

- A minor transition (holding a direction) is safer but slower at maintaining or advancing the grip meter and sub. You shine the RS to find where the opponent is holding direction which will cause him to have to reposition and you both struggle there.

- A major transition (swoops) is risky but fills or depletes the grip meter faster. You have to time one during the times the opponent is repositioning between holding a direction for 5 seconds. You mistime one and you deplete your grip by the same you would’ve gained.

[SMOKEZERO]

Transition based submissions

The submission mini game is the best and only representation of a positional struggle or “wrestling” mechanic the game offers. The fact the mini game itself has nothing to do with fighting is beside the point. Until we see what’s coming next a tbs system doesn’t solve the transition grappling that is void of wrestling in the current system. There is more wrestling in the mini game than there is in the entire rest of the grappling based systems


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[TheGentlemanGhost]

Re: Transition based submissions

The submission mini game is the best and only representation of a positional struggle or “wrestling” mechanic the game offers. The fact the mini game itself has nothing to do with fighting is beside the point. Until we see what’s coming next a tbs system doesn’t solve the transition grappling that is void of wrestling in the current system. There is more wrestling in the mini game than there is in the entire rest of the grappling based systems


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It’s a transitioning mini game used for submissions, that’s my big issue with it. Maybe if the mini game was just 1 or 2 gates used for the transitions and then you go into a submission system, MAYBE that could work. But that might be too much for most people.

I don’t even think most people notice the submission isn’t even sunk in until the last gate. I could honestly do without transitioning if it means keeping this mini game as the sub system though tbh. It’s decent as a transition system, but the sub itself needs to be completely different.

[MacGowan]

Re: Transition based submissions

Honestly, the mashing X buttton alternative is mucj more intuative. You grapple transition into back mount, apply the submission, and then you begin to mash X to apply pressure. Stamina, damage, and stats will all help you. This works a hell of a lot better than the default space-station-maze system.

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Re: Transition based submissions

Honestly, the mashing X buttton alternative is mucj more intuative. You grapple transition into back mount, apply the submission, and then you begin to mash X to apply pressure. Stamina, damage, and stats will all help you. This works a hell of a lot better than the default space-station-maze system.

I agree, it’s mostly likely the best method for online play as well in case of any kind of lag. Literally just mashing the button in EA MMA quickly drained your stamina and it would be over. Having to apply pressure with a button would also drain stamina, therefore you’d have to pace yourself and know when to actually go for broke.

[johnmangala]

Re: Transition based submissions

Honestly, the mashing X buttton alternative is mucj more intuative. You grapple transition into back mount, apply the submission, and then you begin to mash X to apply pressure. Stamina, damage, and stats will all help you. This works a hell of a lot better than the default space-station-maze system.

Yeah I wouldn't mind if they switched the easy alt to default as long as we can have a HUDless sub game.

[DCowboys22]

Re: Transition based submissions

I agree, it’s mostly likely the best method for online play as well in case of any kind of lag. Literally just mashing the button in EA MMA quickly drained your stamina and it would be over. Having to apply pressure with a button would also drain stamina, therefore you’d have to pace yourself and know when to actually go for broke.

EA MMA did that really well. My favorite submission system overall. EA could implement that alongside a multi-step transition system to get to the mashing stage.


For example, an armbar attempt from guard could be 2 steps:

-L2 and a minor transition gets wrist control
-From here, L2 and another minor transition swings the hips and feet over to allow for the button mash.

Just like EA MMA, the button mash needs to be strategic. If you mash like crazy and don’t have the proper stamina or damage advantages, it’ll gas you out.

Different submissions can have a different number of stages/transitions required to achieve the button mash stage. More complex subs like Twisters or Gogoplatas would need 3 or more transitions to achieve.

Also, the ability to Major transition could be allowed as options to skip stages. For my arm bar from guard example, 1 single major transition would quickly gain wrist control and swing the hips/legs into position, bringing the button mash stage in 1 step. This how we achieve flash subs.

Defending:

If I’m defending a submission, I have multiple options: a minor transition to get back to stage 1, a major transition to go straight from stage 2 to neutral depending on the type of sub. If I’m not in the Button mash stage, I should be able use defensive transitions to get out of danger.

All of this can be implemented properly by showing clear animations of each stage of a sub attempt. Along with smart commentary. If I gain wrist control(stage 1), Jon Anik or Rogan will say “he’s got wrist control, he could be going for a submission here”, to let casual players know they have to defend.

A deep submission tutorial could show every stage of each submission and how to generally Apply/defend with transitions to walk the submission stages forward/back to neutral.

This system keeps everything consistent with the overall grappling system, it keeps the player immersed and focused on the fighters by not having a giant graphic pop up. It also allows for realistic gameplay and strategy. Imagine defending a leg lock from stage 1, the attacker has both hands on the leg. From here you can either transition out to neutral or smash his face with punches to punish him. Doing so causes big damage but leaves you more vulnerable to missing a transition denial to stage 2 and possibly getting subbed.

It opens up tons of opportunities for different strategies.

[SMOKEZERO]

Re: Transition based submissions

Are we really suggesting button mashing submissions now? Wtf


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[SHADOW_UFCMMA]

Re: Transition based submissions

Are we really suggesting button mashing submissions now? Wtf


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might as well play heads or tails, button mashing submissions take no skill.