Werewolf XXXVII: Middle-Earth - GAME ENDS. Who Won? Check it out!

[Alan T]

Not really, the GM puts us where we need to be. I wish there was more to me so I could give you an exciting story, but it just isn't the case. However the mechanics work, I was chosen to witness the failed attack. Apparently that is the danger to their non-cereberal attack.

Well if you are die and end up being good, I will take this opportunity to be the first to thank you for helping us get our first wolf tommorrow :)

[ntndeacon]

Wow Brian, that sounds like a pretty shaky defense to me. Before I switch my vote over, I'd still like to hear from LSG about why she chose Brian over me. But with that, I'm offline for a bit.

I can understand that position Thom, I have been wondering why no one has viewed me either even with me telling folks that better searches are done elsewhere.

[Alan T]

Question for the vets:

I know the bodyguard role allows you to prevent a player from being killed, but does the bodyguard see who was trying to make the kill?

It differs from game to game. Some games they can, other games they don't get any information from it and other games they kill the attacker...

No way to know this game without someone coming out to say how it works.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Thanks, Alan.

[BrianD]

We might need to also start thinking about the numbers and whether or not this is the beginning of the dark side end-game plan. If we've got 3 people on each dark team, and 3 Rangers, they will cancel each other out in terms of the overrun. There would be 5 villagers left. After I am killed, there will be 4 villagers. If the bad guys kill a Ranger tonight, that makes 4 bad guys to even out the 2 remaining Rangers, and 2 bad guys to equal the 4 villagers. That could be game. If the bad guys take out a Ranger and a villager, that should definitely be game. By killing me tonight, you will learn who is bad, but the game may already be over.

[Mr. Wednesday]

I'm going to cast a provisional vote for BrianD, not least because I was already a little worried about him, witness my vote "yesterday".

VOTE BrianD

[Alan T]

We might need to also start thinking about the numbers and whether or not this is the beginning of the dark side end-game plan. If we've got 3 people on each dark team, and 3 Rangers, they will cancel each other out in terms of the overrun. There would be 5 villagers left. After I am killed, there will be 4 villagers. If the bad guys kill a Ranger tonight, that makes 4 bad guys to even out the 2 remaining Rangers, and 2 bad guys to equal the 4 villagers. That could be game. If the bad guys take out a Ranger and a villager, that should definitely be game. By killing me tonight, you will learn who is bad, but the game may already be over.

I am willing to take that chance.

[BrianD]

I am willing to take that chance.

Fair enough. I'm sure whichever dark team gets the win will thank you for this move.

[Alan T]

Fair enough. I'm sure whichever dark team gets the win will thank you for this move.

I've never been MVP before :)

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Jonathan, why do you keep going back to ntn and not thomkal? If we kill ntn and he ends up good, you know you are next right?

vote briand


And you researchers, when you look through brian's posts, you will find that he has voted for ntn at least 3 times....

I am not saying ntn is good by any means, all i am saying is that there might be people who dont beleive im the real seer and stick with ntn... but they shouldn't.

I find it strange that you seem to be defending ntn quite a bit. You knew he was going to be the main lynch target today, but you scan Brian instead? Perhaps I'm reading too much into this, but it strikes me as odd.

[BrianD]

I find it strange that you seem to be defending ntn quite a bit. You knew he was going to be the main lynch target today, but you scan Brian instead? Perhaps I'm reading too much into this, but it strikes me as odd.

I think she already knows what ntn is.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

I think she already knows what ntn is.

I think so too.

Has LSG posted the people she's scanned? I've looked for it, but I can't find it.

[Alan T]

I think so too.

Has LSG posted the people she's scanned? I've looked for it, but I can't find it.

She scanned:

night 1: blade (dead)
night 2: me (good)
night 3: lathum (dead)
night 4: izulde (good)
night 5: briand (bad)

Thomkal scanned:

night 1: Jonathan Ezarik (good)
night 2: Mr.Wednesday (good)
night 3: Schmidty (good)
night 4: Grammaticus (good)
night 5: Dodgerchick (dead)

[Swaggs]

I'm still catching up, but do we know exactly what ability Izulde has?

[Blade6119]

I've never been MVP before :)

I HAVE!!! MULTIPLE TIMES!!! :D :D :D

[Blade6119]

Though granted, my failures are just as spectacular

[Swaggs]

Not much discussion taking place right now, unfortunately. It looks like the momentum is heading towards Brian, so I'm going to go that way, since it will give us either him or LSG. I don't see why LSG would throw things, unless she really wants the heat of ntndeacon, but I haven't seen those two tied in this game yet.

I'm going to go ahead and vote because I'm not sure I'll be back in time tomorrow.

Vote Brian D.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

I'm still catching up, but do we know exactly what ability Izulde has?

From what I understand (and please someone correct me if I'm wrong), but Izulde can see what profession someone plays. Like you being the innkeeper. I don't think he gets info on what side, though.

[BrianD]

The only thing I can think is this must be an end-game play. She/They must think that they will be able to kill a Ranger tonight and end the game. I don't know what else the play can be, but I've got a feeling that this game may be wrapped up by morning.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Schmidty, if you are the seer like people suspect, i hope you scan thomkal tonight.

Why didn't you scan Thomkal? If this is answered somewhere, I missed it and apologize.

[BrianD]

Why didn't you scan Thomkal? If this is answered somewhere, I missed it and apologize.

Maybe she did, but she can't let me live now that I've witnessed her crime.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

She scanned:

night 1: blade (dead)
night 2: me (good)
night 3: lathum (dead)
night 4: izulde (good)
night 5: briand (bad)

Thomkal scanned:

night 1: Jonathan Ezarik (good)
night 2: Mr.Wednesday (good)
night 3: Schmidty (good)
night 4: Grammaticus (good)
night 5: Dodgerchick (dead)

Hmmm. So we haven't learned anything from LSG's scans. Especially since we found out about you and Izulde being good before she revealed and Blade and Lathum were already dead.

Here's how I see it: Brian is evil, but he's not in LSG's faction. This way she gets rid of an opponent and looks like she's the good seer, thus throwing more doubt on Thomkal.

[BrianD]

Hmmm. So we haven't learned anything from LSG's scans. Especially since we found out about you and Izulde being good before she revealed and Blade and Lathum were already dead.

Here's how I see it: Brian is evil, but he's not in LSG's faction. This way she gets rid of an opponent and looks like she's the good seer, thus throwing more doubt on Thomkal.

Possible, but that would mean she *thinks* I'm evil and will be taking out an opponent.

In reality, I think she is only naming me because I saw her attack last night...and she saw me see her. If I'd been around here before she was this morning, we would be using my knowledge to lynch her. Since she got here first, she is controlling the story.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Well, I guess we'll find out tonight.

Vote BrianD

[BrianD]

Well, I guess we'll find out tonight.

Vote BrianD

Disappointing, I thought I had played a pretty good game up until now. Who would have thought viewing a botched night-kill would do me in. Oh well, only an hour before class so I won't be able to attempt much more convincing.

Vote LoneStarGirl

[ntndeacon]

Disappointing, I thought I had played a pretty good game up until now. Who would have thought viewing a botched night-kill would do me in. Oh well, only an hour before class so I won't be able to attempt much more convincing.

Vote LoneStarGirl

You have played a pretty good game I think regardless of your affiliations. And if things are as you suggest, you have solved our two seer problem. Makng it an even better played game.

[LoneStarGirl]

BrianD.... good story about me hitting alant. Too bad its a lie. I am of the light. Swaggs, you can test your skills on that sentence. I didn't scan Thomkal because I am afraid Anxiety put two seers on the light side and i didn't want to waste a night on him. Plus, if i came back saying thomkal is bad, how many of y'all would believe me? I know some people would say of course she says thomkal is bad so we can kill him and they will win, blah blah blah. I have had a feeling about BrianD for awhile, so i wanted to check my theory. and I was right. And I am not vouching for ntn by any means, if briand would have turned out good last night, i would have voted for ntn.

[DaddyTorgo]

interesting development. still need to catch up, but i need to take the dog for a walk before reading this last page and voting.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

I didn't scan Thomkal because I am afraid Anxiety put two seers on the light side and i didn't want to waste a night on him.

Are you serious? You think Thomkal is good? Since when?

[Thomkal]

Ugh. You have been saying for the past few days that I'm evil LSG, trying to discredit everything I say, and now you think I'm on the light side? What changed? I've thought all along there was two of us on the light side which is why I never voted for you or scanned you. But now though...

Well I guess there's one way to find out for sure.

unvote ntndeacon
vote BrianD

[Lorena]

http://www.thegldg.com/forum/images/smilies/hobbit.gif

[DaddyTorgo]

2 seeers on the side of light? that'd be interesting, but it would make more sense than having an evil-seer, since evil already knows who is good (even if they don't know who is on the other evil faction).

[BrianD]

BrianD.... good story about me hitting alant. Too bad its a lie. I am of the light. Swaggs, you can test your skills on that sentence. I didn't scan Thomkal because I am afraid Anxiety put two seers on the light side and i didn't want to waste a night on him. Plus, if i came back saying thomkal is bad, how many of y'all would believe me? I know some people would say of course she says thomkal is bad so we can kill him and they will win, blah blah blah. I have had a feeling about BrianD for awhile, so i wanted to check my theory. and I was right. And I am not vouching for ntn by any means, if briand would have turned out good last night, i would have voted for ntn.

See, I don't buy that. There have been so many people pushing for a lynch of NTN and you decide to ignore all of that and view me? No, you just decided to get rid of me because I saw your little secret. If you had done a better job killing Alan such that I couldn't see your failure, would you still be pointing at me or would you have "viewed" someone else?

[Grammaticus]

The only thing I can think is this must be an end-game play. She/They must think that they will be able to kill a Ranger tonight and end the game. I don't know what else the play can be, but I've got a feeling that this game may be wrapped up by morning.

From the rules post:

Winning Conditions:

The game ends when the forces of darkness can overwhelm those of light, or when all of the darkness is destroyed.

For purposes of overwhelming, one agent of darkness can overtake two villagers with no problem. They are sheep and easily pacified. However, the rangers are much more difficult. It takes two agents to overcome each ranger. (So, for example, if 8 players are left, three agents and five townfolk, then the agents of darkness win, because three agents can take five villagers with no problem.)

If someone is not a townsfolk, nor a ranger, nobody knows how easily pacified they are.
A total of 25 players to start the game. Conventional wisdom or discussion from all, generally places 3 bad guys in each faction and 3 rangers. I realize those numbers are not hard and fast but they are basically the consensus of discussion to this point. How many neutral aligned players? We have already seen one in SnDvl. For the sake of argument, lets say none left.

9 villagers have been lost – side of light
1 non affiliated person has been lost - side of darkness
1 non affiliated and non aligned person lost – no side

That leaves 14 people left.

3 Sauron baddies
3 Saluman baddies
3 rangers
5 vanilla villagers

It takes two baddies to overcome a ranger so right now you potentially have all six baddies causing a draw against the rangers or even odds that would cause a bad guy win. That leaves an overage of 5 villagers. It takes 2 villagers to overcome a baddie. So it would take 3 more baddies to offset those villagers.

If we lynch BrianD and he is a vanilla villager as he says and a ranger is night killed, we still have odds of

6 baddies
2 rangers
4 villagers

It takes 4 baddies to offset the rangers and the 4 villager take the 2 remaining baddies. So no end game.

Of course there could be more or less baddies and rangers. Also the rules say if you are not a regular townie, it is not certain how many it takes to overwhelm. Since we have not uncovered anyone that was on the side of light and more than a townie, that leads me to believe someone else exists that might have a 1:1 overwhelm ratio to the bad guys. And of course there could be another non aligned role.

Basically, I don’t think this is end game just yet. May be a small chance, but likely not. If we lynch a villager and lose a ranger, then maybe the next lynch and night kill could generate an endgame. But, we are sure to get a baddie in either BrianD or LSG. If they are both good, then one of them screwed things up by lying.

[BrianD]

I'm off to class and won't be back until after the lynch. For everyone on the side of Light, do you really think we can survive with our numbers after a villager lynch and possibly two more good-guy deaths tonight? We need a dark death now, and I have handed you one.

[BrianD]

Gramm, your analysis is good, but remember that both bad groups appear to be able to make night kills. Add one more villager (or one more Ranger) kill to you analysis above and you've got a finished game with the Dark winning.

[BrianD]

Gramm, your analysis is good, but remember that both bad groups appear to be able to make night kills. Add one more villager (or one more Ranger) kill to you analysis above and you've got a finished game with the Dark winning.

Also, in your analysis above, I think that is game over. The Rangers are overrun by the 4 baddies and the villagers are overrun by the other 2 baddies. You don't need a majority in that situation, just an even ratio.

[DaddyTorgo]

VOTE BRIAND

trusting LSG here. interesting that LSG is told what faction the force of darkness is on too. the fact that she has come out ahead of time and identified him as an agent of saruman is additional information that she didn't need to give that lends credibility to her story, presumably it will be checkable when he is revealed upon death (although i don't remember for sure based on the rules and i'm not about to leave this post to check).

Should this be true it also gives me pause about ntndeacon as well, unless that's a tactic for trying to hide him...which i suppose we should consider.

[Izulde]

I'll follow LSG's reveal, too. Other than that I have nothing to add. I had an ungodly busy weekend and I'm still exhausted from it.

UNVOTE NTNDEACON

VOTE BRIAND

[Alan T]

VOTE BRIAND

trusting LSG here. interesting that LSG is told what faction the force of darkness is on too. the fact that she has come out ahead of time and identified him as an agent of saruman is additional information that she didn't need to give that lends credibility to her story, presumably it will be checkable when he is revealed upon death (although i don't remember for sure based on the rules and i'm not about to leave this post to check).

Should this be true it also gives me pause about ntndeacon as well, unless that's a tactic for trying to hide him...which i suppose we should consider.

How in the world do you say LSG outing BrianD says anything at all about ntndeacon?

[DaddyTorgo]

no...i mean about briand voting for ntndeacon 3 times

[Alan T]

no...i mean about briand voting for ntndeacon 3 times

Ok, so you blindly follow LSG's dropping that little info as a way to distance ntn once BrianD is bad and completely ignore my post about the setting when BrianD did vote for ntn making the votes completely not matter other than vote placement.

Got it, just as long as I understand whats being sold here before people try to buy it. :)

[Alan T]

no...i mean about briand voting for ntndeacon 3 times

Can you show me the three places where BrianD placed a meaningful vote for ntndeacon in a situation it could likely get him lynched?

[DaddyTorgo]

Ok, so you blindly follow LSG's dropping that little info as a way to distance ntn once BrianD is bad and completely ignore my post about the setting when BrianD did vote for ntn making the votes completely not matter other than vote placement.

Got it, just as long as I understand whats being sold here before people try to buy it. :)

nope. i must have missed that post of yours. i didn't realize all brian's votes for ntn were meaningless. and i just said it would raise questions, and i did say in my post "unless it was just a way of trying to hide ntndeacon down the road"

[DaddyTorgo]

sides, i wasn't saying this clears ntndeacon. just saying it kinda...brought him back into relevence or whatever you want to call it. shined the light back in his direction

[DaddyTorgo]

dola

assuming brian is evil and lsg is cleared more by virtue of that i think the light definately swings back in that direction. although all bets are off if lsg has been playing us all for fools (which i don't believe)

[Alan T]

sides, i wasn't saying this clears ntndeacon. just saying it kinda...brought him back into relevence or whatever you want to call it. shined the light back in his direction


Well I'll make it easy for you. LSG lied about BrianD voting for ntn at least 3 times. He only voted for him 1 time, on a day when no one else was going to vote for him, and only had his vote on him for 40 min before he moved it off. He only mentioned ntn one other time on the day when it was ntn vs Izulde and pretty much everyone on the untrusted list voted for izulde and none of them voted for ntn.

This is his response on a day where a vote for ntn could have lynched him before the end switch to Thomkal and all of the chaos that ensued.

I had thought about voting for NTN, but then I fear Alan will point at me again for buddying up to him. I'm going to vote Izulde today. He put some pressure on people earlier for playing out of character (that I disagreed with), and he is voting for LSG who Blade seems to think might be important. I think I'll be around later tonight if things change.

Vote Izulde

Then the next day, I came back out going for ntndeacon, when swaggs pushed everyone to spleen. At the point BrianD voted for ntndeacon here, it was very clear no one else would be voting for ntndeacon, as all of those voters were on Spleen. ntndeacon was not in danger of being lynched this day and in fact there might not have been any other votes on him here. Basically a throw away vote.

I've been trying to figure out how to vote today and really wasn't sure which way to go. Now with the big shift to Spleen, things got complicated again. I have already voted for Spleen in this game, and I have no problem doing it again. For now, I'm not going to vote for him just to make sure we keep a race going. If I need to make a change to ensure the lynch, I will.

Vote Ntndeacon

Then 40 minutes later he moves his vote off of ntndeacon, thus "proving" his point of how willing he is to lynch ntndeacon

Well, I wanted to show that I was willing to vote for Ntndeacon, which I have. I will be willing to tomorrow as well. I also don't want to make it look like I am trying to protect Spleen...who I've voted for before.

Unvote Ntndeacon
Vote Spleen

And this is his response when I called him out on it.

It may have been a silly move, but you were talking about all the people who were afraid to tough ntn. I didn't want to just jump on Spleen and make it look like I was still trying to avoid ntn.

I will be willing to vote for ntn tomorrow.

For you and LSG to blindly say that BrianD being bad makes ntndeacon good, or even to suggest it is downright incorrect.

[Alan T]

sides, i wasn't saying this clears ntndeacon. just saying it kinda...brought him back into relevence or whatever you want to call it. shined the light back in his direction

I still want to know how any of today's events shed any light or push the lynch away from ntndeacon in any sort of way.

Once again tommorrow, my sights will be to lynch ntndeacon unless I am convinced otherwise.

[DaddyTorgo]

ok. thanks alan. you're much better at the whole "digging back into past posts" thing than i am. my patience for it wears thin pretty quickly.

aside (TOTALLY NOT GAME RELATED): have you checked out that "Encyclopedia of Arda" that i mentioned to you?

[DaddyTorgo]

I still want to know how any of today's events shed any light or push the lynch away from ntndeacon in any sort of way.

Once again tommorrow, my sights will be to lynch ntndeacon unless I am convinced otherwise.

that's what i was saying. it shines the light back on him. i'm down with putting him up for a vote tomorrow, although i don't know why sublime or mr. weds aren't drawing anymore attention?

[Alan T]

that's what i was saying. it shines the light back on him. i'm down with putting him up for a vote tomorrow, although i don't know why sublime or mr. weds aren't drawing anymore attention?

I've been trying to push a sublime vs ntndeacon vote for 3 days now.

[DaddyTorgo]

so shall we "plan" that for tomorrow alan, pending the outcome of today+tonight?

[Alan T]

so shall we "plan" that for tomorrow alan, pending the outcome of today+tonight?

I already said I will plan to vote for ntndeacon tommorrow unless you all try to kill me again tonight and actually manage to bring something a little heavier than a tree branch, or someone comes up with something convincing enough to make me vote for someone else.

I would be interested however in seeing what a seer shows about sublime.

[DaddyTorgo]

I would be interested however in seeing what a seer shows about sublime.

or ntndeacon too really, right? one or the other would serve equally well hmm?

[Alan T]

or ntndeacon too really, right? one or the other would serve equally well hmm?

sure, I am somewhat suprised he hasn't been scanned yet, but maybe thats just because he's been my top suspect for 4 days now.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

OK, I'm out of here until after the lynch. I hate to see Brian go this way (even though I have been suspicious of him), but it's good to know that either way we find at least one wolf tonight.

[Tyrith]

I'm okay with Alan's tentative plan. Given the choice between the two I'd probably vote for Sublime just to make interesting...I wouldn't have any qualms killing the newbie at this point ;)

[Alan T]

I'm okay with Alan's tentative plan. Given the choice between the two I'd probably vote for Sublime just to make interesting...I wouldn't have any qualms killing the newbie at this point ;)

Maybe we should look at voting for you tommorrow instead ;)

[Alan T]

dola,

I actually wouldn't mind a seer scan of tyrith tonight more than anyone. I think Tyrith has the cunning mind able to lead a bad guy team fairly competently.

[Thomkal]

dola,

I actually wouldn't mind a seer scan of tyrith tonight more than anyone. I think Tyrith has the cunning mind able to lead a bad guy team fairly competently.

He's still on my list to scan, but I would rather not reveal who I'm scanning after the Dodgerchick disaster.

[Alan T]

He's still on my list to scan, but I would rather not reveal who I'm scanning after the Dodgerchick disaster.

Fair enough, I'm not going to tell people who to scan. I sure hope its not another dead person though, that would be unfortunatly inconvenient :)

[Tyrith]

dola,

I actually wouldn't mind a seer scan of tyrith tonight more than anyone. I think Tyrith has the cunning mind able to lead a bad guy team fairly competently.

Thanks for the compliment. I'd say go ahead and scan away, except that I think that the scan would be better used elsewhere....I have new information to reveal, but I think it would be bad for us if I did so at this time. Which puts me at an impasse, because really all I can say is, trust me, and you have no reason to do so. The best offer I can make to you is this: I'll tell you everything tomorrow, and if I don't, lynch me. But seers should do what they think is right, so I'm not going to blame you if you don't take me at my word, all things considered.

[DaddyTorgo]

Thanks for the compliment. I'd say go ahead and scan away, except that I think that the scan would be better used elsewhere....I have new information to reveal, but I think it would be bad for us if I did so at this time. Which puts me at an impasse, because really all I can say is, trust me, and you have no reason to do so. The best offer I can make to you is this: I'll tell you everything tomorrow, and if I don't, lynch me. But seers should do what they think is right, so I'm not going to blame you if you don't take me at my word, all things considered.

what's the difference between today and tomorrow?

[Swaggs]

Thanks for the compliment. I'd say go ahead and scan away, except that I think that the scan would be better used elsewhere....I have new information to reveal, but I think it would be bad for us if I did so at this time. Which puts me at an impasse, because really all I can say is, trust me, and you have no reason to do so. The best offer I can make to you is this: I'll tell you everything tomorrow, and if I don't, lynch me. But seers should do what they think is right, so I'm not going to blame you if you don't take me at my word, all things considered.

This is raising my suspicion of you.

There is no good reason for you to sit on information and risk us all losing it if you get night killed tonight. Unless you have no reason to fear being killed tonight?

[DaddyTorgo]

This is raising my suspicion of you.

There is no good reason for you to sit on information and risk us all losing it if you get night killed tonight. Unless you have no reason to fear being killed tonight?


and if he had no reason to fear being killed tonight then he could just as easily reveal tonight.

[Alan T]

Thanks for the compliment. I'd say go ahead and scan away, except that I think that the scan would be better used elsewhere....I have new information to reveal, but I think it would be bad for us if I did so at this time. Which puts me at an impasse, because really all I can say is, trust me, and you have no reason to do so. The best offer I can make to you is this: I'll tell you everything tomorrow, and if I don't, lynch me. But seers should do what they think is right, so I'm not going to blame you if you don't take me at my word, all things considered.

I don't think I buy it. We have had almost everyone in the game at this point do a role reveal, but your role is so much more important than a seer I guess?

You're not going to get me off of BrianD today, and likely won't be my target tommorrow (Ntndeacon is my likely target tommorrow, unless a seer comes out and tells me you are bad tommorrow). However you're near the top of a very short list for me, and right now I'll have you #3 after BrianD and Ntndeacon.

Tommorrow you better hope a seer doesn't come out and say you are bad.

[Swaggs]

What a terrible, terrible play from Tyrith.

If you have such valuable information and don't intend to share it tonight, why even make a statement and let the dark side suspect you?

Regardless of what you say from this point on, you are at the top of my suspect list tomorrow.

[Tyrith]

Sigh. Screw it all. Well, suffice it to say I'm going to make myself the best night kill target available if they want to keep us toying with our seers again, but so be it.

I am loathe to have to call out another person by name, because this strongly hints at what they are, too, but...the person that can now vouch for me is Grammaticus. Apparently he had a night action where he was searching for his long lost cousin. Night 5 he came and talked to me. As I mentioned previously I had no idea what I really was, but it seems I'm taller, stronger, and generally cooler than the average Bree-person. Point of the story, I'm actually a Dunedain, and I can train to become a ranger, which will happen tonight assuming I don't get night killed. This probably also means Gramm is a ranger -- can you see why I didn't want to have to bring this up NOW? Because dependent on how the lynch goes and what side LSG is on -- remember, she could be a Sauron -- they might leave us two rangers tomorrow. In which case I probably just killed the person that can vouch for me. But it is what it is.

[Alan T]

What a terrible, terrible play from Tyrith.

If you have such valuable information and don't intend to share it tonight, why even make a statement and let the dark side suspect you?

Regardless of what you say from this point on, you are at the top of my suspect list tomorrow.

Thats my thoughts too. Its like begging to be night killed if he is good, or setting something up that he can't act on if bad. Like magically he's going to say the person who is night killed tonight can vouch for him or something, and it will be too late tomorrow.

[Tyrith]

What a terrible, terrible play from Tyrith.

If you have such valuable information and don't intend to share it tonight, why even make a statement and let the dark side suspect you?

Regardless of what you say from this point on, you are at the top of my suspect list tomorrow.

If you are willing to make such brazen blanket statements maybe we should kill you day one next game for being so unwilling to the change for the sake of the village.

[Tyrith]

Thats my thoughts too. Its like begging to be night killed if he is good, or setting something up that he can't act on if bad. Like magically he's going to say the person who is night killed tonight can vouch for him or something, and it will be too late tomorrow.

If you don't recall I already lived this once, and did not like it! But I figured that Gramm was an unlikely night kill target for tonight, and remember how we've been talking about endgame plays? What if they kill him tonight and we get overwhelmed before I make rangerhood -- because I find it likely now we only have two rangers, not three, because four rangers is a LOT.

[DaddyTorgo]

*sigh*

errmmm. that's bad. very bad.

maybe we should have not pressured tyrith so bad and he shouldn't have folded so easily...it's not like he was going to be lynched tonight.

you prolly could have said something less...direct though Ty

[Tyrith]

So can you see why I was hesitant to rat out not one but potentially two rangers at the same time? But in order for you all to listen to anything I say EVER I was left little choice but to drop hints at it.

[Alan T]

If you don't recall I already lived this once, and did not like it! But I figured that Gramm was an unlikely night kill target for tonight, and remember how we've been talking about endgame plays? What if they kill him tonight and we get overwhelmed before I make rangerhood -- because I find it likely now we only have two rangers, not three, because four rangers is a LOT.

If you were telling the truth, then why would you come out with this play and risk your future team mate? I would have assumed Gramm would have given a hint or something to back you if this was the case.

Call me doubtful until proven otherwise.

[Tyrith]

*sigh*

errmmm. that's bad. very bad.

maybe we should have not pressured tyrith so bad and he shouldn't have folded so easily...it's not like he was going to be lynched tonight.

you prolly could have said something less...direct though Ty

Really? Like what, vaguely referring to someone that can back me up? And have the situation where when I actually bring up who it is it's too late? You all have had it in your heads this entire game that I'm bad when I'm just a little loony. This is what happens when things get miscommunicated.

[Alan T]

So can you see why I was hesitant to rat out not one but potentially two rangers at the same time? But in order for you all to listen to anything I say EVER I was left little choice but to drop hints at it.

Its pretty funny that you felt so pressured to do so when your neck wasn't even on the line. Like I said before, this feels like a big set up to me.

[Tyrith]

If you were telling the truth, then why would you come out with this play and risk your future team mate? I would have assumed Gramm would have given a hint or something to back you if this was the case.

Call me doubtful until proven otherwise.

Alan, why don't you try _looking at the fricking posts_ before you say this. Know how many posts he's made today? 1! And it was about six words long. This happened _last night_. I had no clue I was going to get so lucky.

[DaddyTorgo]

Its pretty funny that you felt so pressured to do so when your neck wasn't even on the line. Like I said before, this feels like a big set up to me.

EXACTLY what i was thinking. you could have sat on the name of your fellow ranger and just ate your own potential death (assuming you were even going to be a night target), but you just threw Gram in front of the proverbial bus??

[Swaggs]

So can you see why I was hesitant to rat out not one but potentially two rangers at the same time? But in order for you all to listen to anything I say EVER I was left little choice but to drop hints at it.

What I can't see is why you were so giddy about bringing it all to the forefront when there was really no need to even bring it up. You clearly were in no danger of being lynched today and probably had little chance of being night killed with all of the seers running around.

Say whatever you want about me, but I have to question why you would do this at this particular point in the game.

[Tyrith]

Its pretty funny that you felt so pressured to do so when your neck wasn't even on the line. Like I said before, this feels like a big set up to me.

A set up to do _what_? Not get them to scan me? When the person that's backing me up is someone you all admittedly trust, and who will (hopefully) back me up on this? You bought Thomkal's lame reveal and you're going to ignore me? Screw this, I can't buy any credit from you all about anything.

[Alan T]

Alan, why don't you try _looking at the fricking posts_ before you say this. Know how many posts he's made today? 1! And it was about six words long. This happened _last night_. I had no clue I was going to get so lucky.

Thats my point, I would have assumed he might have made more than 1 post after your hints earlier. Either way, I see this as a likely setup where tommorrow your story will be unverifiable. If a seer says tommorrow you are bad, you're my likely target tommorrow.

[Tyrith]

EXACTLY what i was thinking. you could have sat on the name of your fellow ranger and just ate your own potential death (assuming you were even going to be a night target), but you just threw Gram in front of the proverbial bus??

Worst case scenario is that he dies and I'm a ranger that takes his place. That is no different than them just killing me, except that people can't randomly die and a bad guy can't come play some screw game claiming he's my backer, get killed, and drag me down with him. There was no fricking way I could win in this game ever since you all decided to believe Thomkal, I swear.

[Alan T]

A set up to do _what_? Not get them to scan me? When the person that's backing me up is someone you all admittedly trust, and who will (hopefully) back me up on this? You bought Thomkal's lame reveal and you're going to ignore me? Screw this, I can't buy any credit from you all about anything.

Sure, and if the person who you say can vouch for you happens to die tonight because you outed him, leaving your story unverifiable you expect us to blindly trust it? And if a seer comes out and says you are bad, we should ignore them and go with your unverifiable story?

[Tyrith]

Thats my point, I would have assumed he might have made more than 1 post after your hints earlier. Either way, I see this as a likely setup where tommorrow your story will be unverifiable. If a seer says tommorrow you are bad, you're my likely target tommorrow.

Unverifiable? WTF!? Gramm usually talks a little, don't you think it's POSSIBLE he just wasn't HERE today? Not everyone has as much time to post as we do, Alan.

I just don't understand you all at all. You'll buy insanely lame stories from people that about to get lynched, but you won't buy a story from someone with no pressure except to talk about the story? What if Gramm backs me up, then you'll come up with some lame conspiracy theory and kill us both now? Seriously, come on.

[Alan T]

Unverifiable? WTF!? Gramm usually talks a little, don't you think it's POSSIBLE he just wasn't HERE today? Not everyone has as much time to post as we do, Alan.

I just don't understand you all at all. You'll buy insanely lame stories from people that about to get lynched, but you won't buy a story from someone with no pressure except to talk about the story? What if Gramm backs me up, then you'll come up with some lame conspiracy theory and kill us both now? Seriously, come on.

I guess time will tell then. I'm still going after ntndeacon tommorrow unless convinced otherwise.

[Tyrith]

Sure, and if the person who you say can vouch for you happens to die tonight because you outed him, leaving your story unverifiable you expect us to blindly trust it? And if a seer comes out and says you are bad, we should ignore them and go with your unverifiable story?

I'm going to assume Gramm is going to get the chance to post again before 330 AM EST. If he does and he backs me up, because I've left him almost zero choice but to do so for better or worse, and then Thomkal says I'm bad, heck yes you should kill Thomkal but I'm not sure we've ever been able to trust a word he's said. Next game I'm going to reveal seer randomly if you're going to make it _this_ easy.

[Tyrith]

And this is all because I didn't want you wasting a LSG scan....

[Alan T]

I'm going to assume Gramm is going to get the chance to post again before 330 AM EST. If he does and he backs me up, because I've left him almost zero choice but to do so for better or worse, and then Thomkal says I'm bad, heck yes you should kill Thomkal but I'm not sure we've ever been able to trust a word he's said. Next game I'm going to reveal seer randomly if you're going to make it _this_ easy.

sounds like fun!

[DaddyTorgo]

awww man! bad news bears!

[DaddyTorgo]

goin out for coffee. back ~ 9:35

[Schmidty]

Just got back to my desk for the first time in quite a while, and I'll only be here for a few more minutes before dinner. I'm hoping to get back before the lynch, but just in case:

Vote BrianD

[Sublime 2]

vote BrianD

I'm still not sure about this vote. LSG and Thomkal have both been fishy. I guess tonight's lynch will clear one of these two.

[Mr. Wednesday]

It looks like the die is cast for today. My concern is, if Brian turns out to not be who LSG claims he is, will we have lost control of the vote tomorrow?

[LoneStarGirl]

Sublime, how have i been fishing again? I have told you everything i know...

[LoneStarGirl]

Mr. Wednesday, you dont have to worry about that. in 45 minutes you will all be singing my praises ;)

[Mr. Wednesday]

Dola, I'd guess not, upon further thought.

[LoneStarGirl]

Thomkal, no hints on who you are scanning tonight? ;)

[LoneStarGirl]

okay guys, ill be back in thirty

[Sublime 2]

Sublime, how have i been fishing again? I have told you everything i know...

I guess it hasn't been a matter of you being fishy, as it has been this whole BrianD accusation on you. But, like I said, we'll find out tonight.

[Abe Sargent]

Another day has ended. Unlike previous days, today seems almost anti-climatic. One of your own has pointed a finger at someone. Eager to finally receive a reprieve from regularly killing your own, you latch onto the accusation. It’s quickly apparent that your decision is final, and the day creeps along endlessly, as you wait for the evening only out of a sense of formality.

As the assembly votes virtually as one, the final votes are cast. BrianD is to be lynched tonight. He stands up, with a look on confusion on his face. For a second, you glimpse various possibilities cross his face before he makes a decision.

With a bolt, BrianD leaps over the confining fence and begins to run full gallop away from you. The various town guards posted around the courtyard are taken by surprise and after a hesitation, begin to make after him.

BrianD is a farmer and worker of husbandry. He is no soldier. However, his profession has hardened him physically, and catching him is no easy task. Several town guard draw their weapons and approach your assembly, grim looks on their faces. They will not be allowing any more of you to leave.

Three or four minutes later you hear the sound of steel clashing against steel. It’s coming from a short distance down a couple of roads. The weaver’s shop is between you and the clang of battle. After it begins, shouts ring out. Then, just as abruptly, they end.

Within a few moments, the town guards carry back the corpse of BrianD. One of their number is limping from a slash on his hip. BrianD had managed to find a weapon somewhere, although you know he was unarmed at the assembly. You have no idea how he managed to produce a weapon.

His body is laid to rest, and the guard back off, allowing you to go about your tasks. You immediately take off after his farm and break down his door after being unable to pick the stubborn lock. A quick search of his farmhouse turns up several odd items that speak of black magic. Ultimately, you discover a parchment discussing the various basic plans that Saruman has for the region.

It’s obvious that both Saruman must have turned foul as well as BrianD. Isn’t Saruman that wizard who leaves near Rohan? What would he be interested in around Bree? Wasn’t he on the side of Light? Your questions are not answered this evening, but the possible fall of one of the icons of Light is a fall greater shadow than the one destroyed this evening.

Day Six has ended. Night Six has begun and will end at 3:30 AM EST Tuesday Morning.


-Anxiety

[Abe Sargent]

Page 48!

[BrianD]

May Darkness consume you all. :)

[Alan T]

May Darkness consume you all. :)

I guess I don't get to be MVP now :(

[LoneStarGirl]

Yauy!! So i guess im dead tonight! Good luck villagers ;)

[Alan T]

Yauy!! So i guess im dead tonight! Good luck villagers ;)

I doubt it!

[Sublime 2]

If the bodyguard is around, I'm not sure how they're not going to guard LSG tonight?

[DaddyTorgo]

YESSSS...GOT ONE!!

guys I think my laptop just died (ask dc)...I may or may not try to get it fixed tomorrow fore buying a new one. so I might be spottily on (via my phone) for the next day or so. grrrrr


but yesssssssssss

[LoneStarGirl]

Okay, I am going to bed. If im alive tomorrow i'll have a full report of who i scan.

[Mr. Wednesday]

I'll believe LSG is on the side of good when a) she's dead and it's been proven or b) she gives up an agent of Sauron. What I think we've established right now is that she's not on the side of Saruman.

[Mr. Wednesday]

I'm not trying to say that to set the stage for a lynch, just noting that Sauron's agents benefit from the death of Ferny, almost as much as we do.

[Swaggs]

I would like to hear from Gram tonight regarding Tyrith.

[ntndeacon]

I hope again that I am not viewed. I want those with seer powers to have a chance to catch another bad guy.

[Grammaticus]

Good job, looks like we got an agent of darkness. BrianD's story sounded like a bad guy.

[Sublime 2]

Good job, looks like we got an agent of darkness. BrianD's story sounded like a bad guy.

Whats up w/ Tyrith's story Gramm?

[Grammaticus]

Whats up w/ Tyrith's story Gramm?

Just read through it. I have to set this straight, we may be getting played.

Bigger post coming.

[Thomkal]

Glad I decided to stay online :)

[Grammaticus]

Wow, this is an odd turn of events to say the least. I’m not sure what to make of Tyrith at this point.

One thing is true, I had a night action to search for my long lost cousin. I am an adventurer that has recently come to Bree in search of my long lost cousin. Each night I could search someone and it encompassed questioning them after dinner. I did find out that my cousin was Tyrith last night. My role PM implied the cousin would be someone I could trust and I assume that meant they would be on the side of light. I asked Anxiety what that meant, would I know if my cousin had already died and what would happen if my cousin was turned to the side of darkness, prior to me finding them.

Anxiety told me that my cousin would start the game on the side of light and the game mechanics were prepared to handle if he had been turned. Anxiety is stingy with information. He would not tell me if I would know if my cousin had been turned or not at the time I found him. He also told me that I may not know if my cousin was already lynched. In which case I guess I would just continue to search until I died or the game ended.

Apparently Tyrith has chosen to take liberties with this or maybe he received information that I did not. I was not told that he was a ranger or bigger or stronger than anyone else, etc. I’m not sure what to make of his reveal, the timing or why he would say that he knew who rangers are. He likely knows I’m on the side of light as a good aligned adventurer and the other cousin. But the ranger bit makes me think he may have been turned and is trying to get a known good guy lynched. That is all I can think of. By calling me a ranger, he is trying to get me night killed.

I think I may have to vote for him tomorrow? Maybe it would be good for the seer to view him tonight and if he turns up bad, he would be the lynch target tomorrow.

[DaddyTorgo]

me too (via my phone). long posts take forever on here so my posts will be short until the laptop situation is fixed tomorrow or weds.

[Thomkal]

Worth staying up for. :) Thanks Gramm for that, and good night all.

[Swaggs]

Interesting stuff between Tyrith and Gram. There are certainly a lot of possibilities in play behind this exchange, which I am sure most of us have thought through. I'm still not sure what to make of it all.

[DaddyTorgo]

Interesting stuff between Tyrith and Gram. There are certainly a lot of possibilities in play behind this exchange, which I am sure most of us have thought through. I'm still not sure what to make of it all.

what he said. I fear bed is fast approaching for me too real soon

[Jonathan Ezarik]

I really don't understand Tyrith's play at all. Why even throw out the suggestion that Grammaticus is a ranger? All he had to say was that Gramm could vouch for him.

This has the smell of evil all over it. To me it seems like we were getting a little too close to the truth and they needed to do this to muddy things up again.

[Mr. Wednesday]

It's not necessarily a bad-guy play, I don't think.

[Swaggs]

It's not necessarily a bad-guy play, I don't think.

I'd agree with that, but in any case, it was very ill advised and ill timed.

[Schmidty]

I'd agree with that, but in any case, it was very ill advised and ill timed.

To be fair, I haven't seen very many bad guys make that big of a "mistake", but I've seen a million bad guys jump all over those same "mistakes".

Just saying.

[Abe Sargent]

The sun has yet to crack the horizon but has yellowed it when you all are awakening by the distant roar of a large wild animal coming from the outskirts of the town. You quickly rouse yourselves and head out. What could it be this time?

You make your way to Pariel Gildenhoof’s small cabin and smaller farm on the edge of town. As you arrive, you see her sitting on the rock leading to her house. She quickly points to the tracks made by a large mammal and a human. One of you points out that the mammal tracks are made by a large bear.

A bear? Do you have to fear nature as well as Agents of Darkness? As a group, you head back to town, seeking security in numbers.

However, you notice that one of your number is missing. Where is Barliman Butterbur? You head back to the Prancing Pony and enter after telling his staff why you are there. One of them scurries off to his room and then cries out in shock. You immediately crowd in after her and discover that he has been stabbed numerous times last night.

Hasn’t your town gone through enough? Stabbings, lynches, suicide, a clubbing, a mysterious death by sorcery and now bears and innkeepers dying? What more could be asked of you fair town. Resolve begins to regain the upper hand in the war your emotions fight on a daily basis. You will end this. For all of the fallen, how you will end this!

Night Six has ended. Day Seven has begun and will end at 10:00 PM EST Tuesday Evening.

-Anxiety

[Alan T]

I'm heading to the airport, before i go

Vote ntndeacon

I should be back on this afternoon at some point.

[LoneStarGirl]

11. Swaggs - Killed Night Six. Barliman Butter the Innskeeper on the side of Light and Townsfolk.

[LoneStarGirl]

Well it looks like from my PM that they tried to kill me last night but Swaggs stepped in and was eaten by the bear. Thanks Swaggs. I checked Thomkal last night. I didn't check NTN because it seems everybody 'knows' he's bad, but people are still on the fence about Thomkal. Thomkal is a an Agent of Saruman and of the Dark.

[LoneStarGirl]

Okay, well looking back at the PM Swaggs didn't get killed by the bear, it must have been his protector or something, I heard a bear roar right outside my cabin, then a human scream, then a meek cry of a bear.

[Swaggs]

:(

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Okay, well looking back at the PM Swaggs didn't get killed by the bear, it must have been his protector or something, I heard a bear roar right outside my cabin, then a human scream, then a meek cry of a bear.

Swaggs was eaten by his protector? What was Swaggs doing outside your cabin? And how convenient is it that Thomkal happens to be an agent of Saruman as well?

If this is true, why did Brian (who actually was an agent of Saruman) vote for Thomkal the other night? He was the eighth vote when we needed nine.

You wait until now to scan Thomkal? And you haven't scanned ntn because we think he's evil? Give me a break. Your story doesn't add up any more.

I'm going to vote for ntn right now, but I can't wait to see what crap you pull out next.

Vote ntndeacon

[Thomkal]

What Jonathan said.

vote ntndeacon

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Got any information for us, Thomkal?

[Thomkal]

Got any information for us, Thomkal?

Not at the present time Jonathan.

[Izulde]

While I do think it's possible there's two Light seers, I think it's more the case of one seer is Light, the other Dark because of the following:

There's *two* Dark factions in this game operating independent of each other and wanting to kill one another. So it makes sense that one Dark faction would have a seer to scan for the other Dark faction.

However, I'm not entirely certain which Dark side would have a seer. If anything, I would say probably Saruman's, since I'm assuming they don't have night kill ability, except maybe once per game (hence the night where three villagers died).

So... hmm. I'll follow LSG's lead for now, since ntndeacon is likely to get lynched anyway.

VOTE THOMKAL

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Not at the present time Jonathan.

? You did scan someone last night, right?

[Thomkal]

Fair Warning: Today is my birthday, so I will not be around as much.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Happy Birthday, Thomkal!

[Tyrith]

I've firmly believed we have needed to take a stand on this seer situation for days. If we aren't going to listen to LSG we should kill her, so at least we KNOW what we're doing. I'm still mostly inclined to believe her, but I want to hear some more opinions first.

[Alan T]

Not at the present time Jonathan.

So who are you waiting to log in before you come up with a story on who you scanned last night?


Izulde I appreciate why you voted for Thomkal, but I think ntn is the better vote for today.

[Alan T]

I've firmly believed we have needed to take a stand on this seer situation for days. If we aren't going to listen to LSG we should kill her, so at least we KNOW what we're doing. I'm still mostly inclined to believe her, but I want to hear some more opinions first.

I want to lynch ntn today. We can revisit the THomkal situation tommorrow.

[Alan T]

I really would like to know if Thomkal scanned Tyrith last night and what the results are.

[Alan T]

Well it looks like from my PM that they tried to kill me last night but Swaggs stepped in and was eaten by the bear. Thanks Swaggs. I checked Thomkal last night. I didn't check NTN because it seems everybody 'knows' he's bad, but people are still on the fence about Thomkal. Thomkal is a an Agent of Saruman and of the Dark.

What else did you find out about THomkal? Do you learn his role information or such?

[ntndeacon]

So who are you waiting to log in before you come up with a story on who you scanned last night?


Izulde I appreciate why you voted for Thomkal, but I think ntn is the better vote for today.

Alan why is that the better vote for today. Lonestargirl has said that Thomkal IS evil. I understand you think I am as well, but that can be nothing but speculation.

[Thomkal]

So who are you waiting to log in before you come up with a story on who you scanned last night?


Izulde I appreciate why you voted for Thomkal, but I think ntn is the better vote for today.

Actually Alan I was waiting for you. :) I viewed Tyrith last night and he came back as on the side of light.

[Alan T]

Actually Alan I was waiting for you. :) I viewed Tyrith last night and he came back as on the side of light.

Why would you wait for me?

[Schmidty]

OK!!!!!!! Good morning troops!!!!!!! :D

This game just a big turn for the better!!!!! I just read my night action PM from Anxiety, and I can 100% confirm that:

A) LoneStarGirl is on the side of good.

B) Sublime2 is on the side of evil, and tried to kill her.


VOTE SUBLIME2

[Schmidty]

I just saw Sublime2 in here. I guess he's accepted the fact that his time is up.

[Tyrith]

If LSG is on the side of good, forget killing Sublime, we can finally kill Thomkal!

VOTE THOMKAL

[Schmidty]

Maybe I got a little too excited. Let me rephrase what I said:

I don't know if LSG is good, but Sublime2 tried to kill her last night with some evil-looking magic (black glowing hands, etc.). I assume that if an evil character is trying to kill someone, that person is likely good.

[Izulde]

B) Sublime2 is on the side of evil, and tried to kill her.



Not possible. Welcome to my suspect list.

[Tyrith]

Not possible. Welcome to my suspect list.

Explain. For the meantime, schmidty makes me unhappy.

UNVOTE THOMKAL

[Schmidty]

Not possible. Welcome to my suspect list.

Holy crap. You are either totally mis-informed, or you are evil.

I'll do a full role reveal if I have to, but you are wrong. According to Anxiety, Sublime2 tried to kill LSG last night.

[Schmidty]

Looks like Izulde might be on the side of evil. Maybe announcing what Sublime2 tried to do has them scrambling.

[Alan T]

Looks like Izulde might be on the side of evil. Maybe announcing what Sublime2 tried to do has them scrambling.

Izulde isn't on the side of evil, and I trust his story more than yours. What I am interested in however is trying to reconcile the two things that you and Izulde know and see if both happening could be possible. If not, then I'll believe Izulde over you.

[Izulde]

Here's the deal:

I don't think Sublime could have attempted a kill on LSG last night because he spent most of the evening talking to me, getting drunk.

[Schmidty]

Izulde isn't on the side of evil, and I trust his story more than yours. What I am interested in however is trying to reconcile the two things that you and Izulde know and see if both happening could be possible. If not, then I'll believe Izulde over you.

I have absolutely no idea if Izulde is good or bad, but the fact that he told me what happened "can't be possible" makes me question that.

Ok, time for a full reveal:

I am Lafe Eriksdotter. I am a Beorning, trained in the art of skin-shifting by the great Beorn. I am able to transform into a bear and protect someone every night. There's a chance that when the person I protect is attacked, I can either kill the attacker or identify them. I cannot be lynched by the townsfolk, as I am too strong for them, and will just throw them around and leave the game. I cannot be identified or killed at night as long as I'm skin-shifted and protecting someone. There is one other part of my role, but I'm not allowed to say what it is. Suffice it to say that it behooves you to keep me in the game.

The past two nights, I have protected LSG. The first night, nothing happened. Last night, Sublime2 tried to attack her, but I fought him off. As he was running away, his cowl fell, and I was able to identify him.

There. All my cards are on the table. Do what you want with this info.

[Alan T]

Oh, I guess I just assumed that LSG was attacked by a bear.

I think its becoming clear to me a bit more what might have plausibly happened..

Schmidty can you tell me what you know of Sublime's actions or dismeanor or how he handled himself last night? Can you tell if he was confident, or drunk or scared or timid or anything?

[Alan T]

I have absolutely no idea if Izulde is good or bad, but the fact that he told me what happened "can't be possible" makes me question that.

Ok, time for a full reveal:

I am Lafe Eriksdotter. I am a Beorning, trained in the art of skin-shifting by the great Beorn. I am able to transform into a bear and protect someone every night. There's a chance that when the person I protect is attacked, I can either kill the attacker or identify them. I cannot be lynched by the townsfolk, as I am too strong for them, and will just throw them around and leave the game. I cannot be identified or killed at night as long as I'm skin-shifted and protecting someone. There is one other part of my role, but I'm not allowed to say what it is. Suffice it to say that it behooves you to keep me in the game.

The past two nights, I have protected LSG. The first night, nothing happened. Last night, Sublime2 tried to attack her, but I fought him off. As he was running away, his cowl fell, and I was able to identify him.

There. All my cards are on the table. Do what you want with this info.

Yeah its cool. I wish now you hadn't done the reveal. It finally came to me as you see by my post that I made at the same time as yours. I finally put 2 and 2 together here... I had been assuming the bear attacked LSG.. but then realized that wasn't necessarily true. I finally realized the bear was you but a bit too late.

[Schmidty]

Here's the deal:

I don't think Sublime could have attempted a kill on LSG last night because he spent most of the evening talking to me, getting drunk.

Very odd; however, according to my PM from Anxiety, he did attempt to kill her. Period.

I don't know what that means, but I'm assuming that actions happen at night in a certain order, and that players can do more than one thing a night. I'd like to see Anxiety confirm that fact if he could. (Just the order/multiple actions per night thing)

[Alan T]

I'd rather vote sublime than THomkal today if we don't have enough support for ntn. I would rather try to take out a member of Sauron than a second Saruman member right now

[Izulde]

I'm withholding judgement on who to vote for until the Advil kicks in.

[Abe Sargent]

Very odd; however, according to my PM from Anxiety, he did attempt to kill her. Period.

I don't know what that means, but I'm assuming that actions happen at night in a certain order, and that players can do more than one thing a night. I'd like to see Anxiety confirm that fact if he could. (Just the order/multiple actions per night thing)


Things always happen in an order. Unless there is an obvious order, when it matters, I roll randomly for what phase of night something happens. When it doesn't matter, I just select something that fits story-wise to what is going on. For some actions, there is a pre-determined order.

-Anxiety

[Thomkal]

Wow some interesting revelations today. Now I don't know who to believe. I can't imagine that Schmidty is lying given that I viewed him. But we know nothing about Ntndeacon other than what he's told us.

[Alan T]

Wow some interesting revelations today. Now I don't know who to believe. I can't imagine that Schmidty is lying given that I viewed him. But we know nothing about Ntndeacon other than what he's told us.

Who are you thinking about voting for Thomkal?

[Abe Sargent]

Let me give an example to illuminate what I am saying. These are examples from my first game.

One character had the night action ability to become immune for the night to any attack. Obivously, that ability applied before any attacks happend that night, or else the ability's usefulness would be laughable.

If I had two actions that interfered with each other, I would just roll off. The second in command had the ability to try and assassinate the Magister. If there had been a night action by the wolves to kill the second-in-command on the same night he tried to assassinate the Magister, I'd roll to see which went first. If he is killed, he couldn't assassinate. If he assassinates and then is killed, someone else became Magister. So I would have rolled dice.

In this game, there are much less potential conflict situations. I built the game batter.

-Anxiety

[ntndeacon]

Unvote Thomkal

I'd rather vote sublime than THomkal today if we don't have enough support for ntn. I would rather try to take out a member of Sauron than a second Saruman member right now

How do you know that Sublime is a member of the Saruman caste? Nothing has been said to that effect.

[Thomkal]

Who are you thinking about voting for Thomkal?

I have already voted for NTNdeacon, see the last page.

[Schmidty]

Unvote Thomkal



How do you know that Sublime is a member of the Saruman caste? Nothing has been said to that effect.

Judging from his cowl and the blacker-than-black glowing stuff that came out of his hands, I would assume that he's an agent of Sauron, not Saruman.

[Alan T]

Judging from his cowl and the blacker-than-black glowing stuff that came out of his hands, I would assume that he's an agent of Sauron, not Saruman.

THat was my assumption too.. ntn either didn't read my post completely or something.

[Alan T]

Actually thinking about things further...

The normal method of night kills this game has been a stabbing death. The occasional second kill has been something more "magical".

I would assume Sauron's team has the nightly kill and the more random magical attack would be some night assassin that Saruman's side has perhaps.

The glowing hands to me makes me think that LSG was going to be the magical night attack target, while Swaggs was obviously stabbed to death.

That means to me if I'm right, Sauron's side killed Swaggs and Saruman's side went after LSG. If so it likely means LSG isn't on Saruman's team but I am guessing we already figured that out from her giving up BrianD before anyways.

Not sure if it clears LSG from Sauron's side just yet though.

[Alan T]

unvote ntndeacon
vote sublime

Eh, guess I will go with this, from what I know I think I'll test out Schmidty today like we tested out LSG yesterday. Lets see if Schmidty is telling the truth (which I believe he is) and kill Sublime.

[Izulde]

Given Anxiety's explanation, it's quite reasonable for both our stories to be correct, Schmidty.

With that in mind, I'll go Sublime, then. As Alan points out, if you're wrong, then you're a bad guy and we kill you tomorrow.

VOTE SUBLIME 2

[Schmidty]

Given Anxiety's explanation, it's quite reasonable for both our stories to be correct, Schmidty.

With that in mind, I'll go Sublime, then. As Alan points out, if you're wrong, then you're a bad guy and we kill you tomorrow.

Sounds good to me.

[Mr. Wednesday]

VOTE Sublime 2

[Grammaticus]

I'm going with Schmidty's reveal

VOTE SUBLIME

If we cannot get a lynch with this, then I will consider moving to another target.

[Tyrith]

I'm going with Schmidty's reveal

VOTE SUBLIME

If we cannot get a lynch with this, then I will consider moving to another target.

I don't think this will be a problem, the vote seems to be mobilizing pretty fast.

VOTE SUBLIME

[Schmidty]

Happy birthday, Thomkal!!!

(I just noticed)

[Thomkal]

Thanks Schmidty :)

[Lorena]

Happy Birthday Thomkal!

Hey Mr. W, wasn't your birthday a few days ago too? Happy belated B-day ;)

[ntndeacon]

THat was my assumption too.. ntn either didn't read my post completely or something.

I must have misread it then. On first reading it sounded like you were Saying he was with Sarumon.

[Alan T]

I must have misread it then. On first reading it sounded like you were Saying he was with Sarumon.

Nah, initially I was thinking he was on Sauron's side.. but my later post made me reconsider it and now I think there is a chance he is on Saruman's side.. So in a way you were right about my thoughts, just for the wrong reason :)

[ntndeacon]

Vote Sublime

[ntndeacon]

and Happy Birthday Thomkal, you evil person you. :)

[Alan T]

Why would you wait for me?

Hey birthday boy (Thomkal) stop ignoring this question.

I just want to know why you wait every day for a while before revealing who you scanned. Who are you waiting on to give you your info?

Ok day 1 you had a migrane.. fair enough people wouldn't go so low to make up stuff like that for gamesmanship.

Day 2 you were upset because you scanned Dodgerchick who died so left for a bit until you cooled down.

Now if I was to even believe day 2, lets look at today where you waited for me to reveal about tyrith?? Why would you wait for me when I had previously said I was getting on a plane to toronto and didn't know when I would be back (perhaps not until the evening )

[Alan T]

That boy is like trying to nail down jello.

[Thomkal]

Hey birthday boy (Thomkal) stop ignoring this question.

I just want to know why you wait every day for a while before revealing who you scanned. Who are you waiting on to give you your info?

Ok day 1 you had a migrane.. fair enough people wouldn't go so low to make up stuff like that for gamesmanship.

Day 2 you were upset because you scanned Dodgerchick who died so left for a bit until you cooled down.

Now if I was to even believe day 2, lets look at today where you waited for me to reveal about tyrith?? Why would you wait for me when I had previously said I was getting on a plane to toronto and didn't know when I would be back (perhaps not until the evening )

First off, thanks for the birthday wishes, even you NTNdeacon. :) Second I completely missed your post about going to Toronto Alan, but I was waiting for you and everyone to chime in on the lynch and LSG's news to see who was still on my side. You have been one of the few willing to listen to me and consider at least that I might be good. Wanted to see who still felt that way before revealing, and if any other news came out about Tyrith since I now knew he was good.

I will be here for about a half-hour, then gone for a couple hours perhaps.

[Thomkal]

That boy is like trying to nail down jello.

No jello for my birthday, I always have angel food cake. :)

[Thomkal]

Here's the deal:

I don't think Sublime could have attempted a kill on LSG last night because he spent most of the evening talking to me, getting drunk.

Can you tell us anything more about this? Why would he be drinking with you?

[Alan T]

Current vote count from what I can tell:

(2) ntndeacon - Jonathan Ezarik (2382), Thomkal (2383)
(7) Sublime - Schmidty (2398), Alan (2423), Izulde (2424), Mr.Wednesday (2426), Grammaticus (2427), Tyrith (2428), ntndeacon (2434)

no votes: Lonestargirl, sublime, DaddyTorgo

[DaddyTorgo]

FINALLY HOME. What are the odds that my laptop would break while playing WW and LITERALLY 14 hours before FM arrived on my doorstep? How ridiculous is that? Catching up now...and by tomorrow I will have a brand new dual-core, 2gb ram, 240gb hd laptop for FM and WWving

[Izulde]

Can you tell us anything more about this? Why would he be drinking with you?

I was finding out his role, which is Keeper of the Stables. However, that shouldn't be taken as any indication as to if he's Light or Dark because I don't find out that information.

To be honest, the information I get from role revelations has been not the most useful thus far, to say the least.

[Izulde]

dola,

I also got him drunk enough that he wouldn't remember the conversation the next day, so naturally he'll say it never happened.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Hey Mr. W, wasn't your birthday a few days ago too? Happy belated B-day ;)

It was, thanks. (And thanks for noticing. :))

[DaddyTorgo]

NOOOOO.

had a long post typed up that got erased when i got logged out by virtue of my parent's desktop having an "auto-logoff" thing setup.

anyways...to summarize

I agree that Sublime would be a Sarumaner by virtue of the description of the night kill. If we kill another Sarumaner then we seriously weaken them and move that much closer to an endgame scenario. Is there any way anyone can think of to solve the Thomkal vs. LSG issue without lynching one or the other? I was talking with Alan last night about setting up a sublime vs. ntndeacon scenario today anyways. Interesting role of Schmidty's. Quite happy to test his truthfullness (although with the inability to lynch him I'm not sure what good it will actually do). Did he actually say he was on the side of light in his reveal, could he be another "unaligned/seperate victory condition" person (don't want to go back and look and lose this post). Oh, and could Swaggs have been on to something and that's why he got night-killed?

VOTE SUBLIME

[DaddyTorgo]

how many do we need for a lynch tonight anyways? any math-majors?

i'll prolly be on spottily between now and lynch (on my phone likely) as I have minimal access (can't monopolize the family computer), but it doesn't look like the vote will shift.

Interesting the voting patterns, the only ones still on ntndeacon are Thom and Jon? Is that because they had to go out and their votes were earlier and they havn't come back, or is it something more?

Will try to check in before lynch at least a lil.

[Mr. Wednesday]

I would imagine (especially given his capabilities) that Schmidty has separate victory conditions, which is probably the thing that he's not revealing to us. From what I recall of the Beornings, though, I wouldn't think we'd have to worry about his interests being different from ours as regards Sauron and probably Saruman.

[Abe Sargent]

Happy Birthday Mr. Thomkal

[Lorena]

Hey Daddy, the losing the post thing has happened to me several times and it was suggested that I type my post on a notepad and paste it in the message window.

[Mr. Wednesday]

I count twelve remaining, so seven would be required to lynch.

[Abe Sargent]

Yes. See, it' called basic math.

12/2 = 6. That's half. Add one, that's seven, the smallest number required for a majority from 12.

[Thomkal]

Thanks anxiety for the birthday wishes.

[LoneStarGirl]

Well since Sublime tried to kill me, ill definnitly vote for him, but tomorrow everybody should go for thomkal.... I figure either me or Schmidty will end up dead in the morning

Vote Sublime

[Grammaticus]

how many do we need for a lynch tonight anyways? any math-majors?

i'll prolly be on spottily between now and lynch (on my phone likely) as I have minimal access (can't monopolize the family computer), but it doesn't look like the vote will shift.

Interesting the voting patterns, the only ones still on ntndeacon are Thom and Jon? Is that because they had to go out and their votes were earlier and they havn't come back, or is it something more?

Will try to check in before lynch at least a lil.

No Thomkal has been in and just chose not to move his vote.

JE said that he was going to leave it on ntn since he figured Sublime was a done deal.

NOOOOO.

had a long post typed up that got erased when i got logged out by virtue of my parent's desktop having an "auto-logoff" thing setup.

anyways...to summarize

I agree that Sublime would be a Sarumaner by virtue of the description of the night kill. If we kill another Sarumaner then we seriously weaken them and move that much closer to an endgame scenario. Is there any way anyone can think of to solve the Thomkal vs. LSG issue without lynching one or the other? I was talking with Alan last night about setting up a sublime vs. ntndeacon scenario today anyways. Interesting role of Schmidty's. Quite happy to test his truthfullness (although with the inability to lynch him I'm not sure what good it will actually do). Did he actually say he was on the side of light in his reveal, could he be another "unaligned/seperate victory condition" person (don't want to go back and look and lose this post). Oh, and could Swaggs have been on to something and that's why he got night-killed?

VOTE SUBLIME

As far as I can tell, Schmidty cannot be killed via lynch, but would leave the game and therefore no longer be playing. About the same effect as getting lynched. Right now, I think the best way to test him is to lynch sublime.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

JE said that he was going to leave it on ntn since he figured Sublime was a done deal.

I did? I don't recall actually posting this (and I looked for it and couldn't find it), but that's pretty much how I feel. I trust Schmidty, so I have no doubt that Sublime is evil and if I need to, I will switch my vote to him. Gramm, can you read my mind?

[Schmidty]

Well since Sublime tried to kill me, ill definnitly vote for him, but tomorrow everybody should go for thomkal.... I figure either me or Schmidty will end up dead in the morning

Vote Sublime

Don't worry.

Just make a good decision on who to test tonight.

[LoneStarGirl]

Don't worry.

Just make a good decision on who to test tonight.

Ideas?

[DaddyTorgo]

off-topic but WTF good is compusa's backup good for if they hafta call me and go "we can only back up pictures music and documents not applications. what stuff do you want backed up?"

ummm...aren't I paying them to run "search" on my computer and figure out the location of all that stuff?? they expect me to what...sit on the phone and provide them with pathways?? wtf.

no it didn't really cost me much. hopefully they get all my docs and my pron.

[Schmidty]

Ideas?

Someone not obviously bad, who you haven't viewed yet. That would be my first thought.

[LoneStarGirl]

I have three or four people on my list, but nobody beleives me about thomkal, i dont know why y'all will beileve me about whoever i reveal tomorrow

[DaddyTorgo]

I have three or four people on my list, but nobody beleives me about thomkal, i dont know why y'all will beileve me about whoever i reveal tomorrow

she has a point...

[Alan T]

I have three or four people on my list, but nobody beleives me about thomkal, i dont know why y'all will beileve me about whoever i reveal tomorrow

Never know! We believed you about briand! :)

I'll likely vote to lynch ntn tommorrow unless someone comes in with some magical new person to lynch again tommorrow :)

[Tyrith]

I have three or four people on my list, but nobody beleives me about thomkal, i dont know why y'all will beileve me about whoever i reveal tomorrow

It's not I don't believe you, I want Thomkal dead and have for several days, but the evidence about Sublime is as conclusive at this point, so it isn't as if we're ignoring you.

[LoneStarGirl]

why do you insist on voting for somebody you dont KNOW is bad, when i have presented you with somebody who DEFINITLY is? You aren't playing a good game Alant

[Alan T]

why do you insist on voting for somebody you dont KNOW is bad, when i have presented you with somebody who DEFINITLY is? You aren't playing a good game Alant

Maybe one shouldn't insult my game unless one knows all the facts! :)

Maybe you can prove to me that ntn is good or bad then instead of supporting ntn for days without any proof yourself.

[LoneStarGirl]

I haven't supported him at all. From the get go i said i was tired of lynching people without proof they were bad. Ntn is one i dont have proof on. He very well may be bad, in fact, he probably is, but until i scan him, or Schmidty says he's bad, I will not vote for him

[Alan T]

I haven't supported him at all. From the get go i said i was tired of lynching people without proof they were bad. Ntn is one i dont have proof on. He very well may be bad, in fact, he probably is, but until i scan him, or Schmidty says he's bad, I will not vote for him

Thats why everyone gets a vote of their own to do what they want with it :)

At least I won't insult you for voting how you feel. :)

[DaddyTorgo]

[quote=Alan T;1307279]Maybe one shouldn't insult my game unless one knows all the facts! :) [quote]


???

[DaddyTorgo]

Maybe one shouldn't insult my game unless one knows all the facts! :)



????

(whoops)

[LoneStarGirl]

Just because you put a smilie behind your sentences doesn't mean that people will believe you are happy when you say them. I have been insulted in by spleen in every game we have played together, dont take it personally.

...Isn't it past time? Anxiety was just here.

[LoneStarGirl]

Daddy, alant is known for hiding stuff, or at least saying he is hiding something when really he is just trying to feel important

[Alan T]

Just because you put a smilie behind your sentences doesn't mean that people will believe you are happy when you say them. I have been insulted in by spleen in every game we have played together, dont take it personally.

...Isn't it past time? Anxiety was just here.

So because Spleen insults you, its ok to insult me. :) I'm not taking it personally, I just find it interesting when one resorts to insults to try to get their point across. By telling me how horrible a job I am doing will make me suddenly realize "oh gosh, she's right. I'll drop any independant thought whatsoever and ignore anything I might know behind the scenes and just become a lemming!"

[Abe Sargent]

The sudden revelation by one of your group that all is not what it seemed last night has justified your desire for a quick decision and a quick result. Although there were earlier pushes for various people, ultimately, you decide to lynch Sublime 2.

All of the air seems to leave his body and he collapses, unconscious, to the ground. He doesn’t appear to have taken the news very well at all and instead fainted. A group of the town guard drag him to the gallows and set him down. Immediately you have a moral quandary on your hands.

Do you hang a man who is unconscious or wake him up and hang him? The first is certainly more humane. He won’t feel any pain and he won’t suffer. He’ll just die up there with little ceremony. On the other hand, many of you feel that a man should be allowed to face his death.

In the end, you decide to finish the lynching without wakening him up. Not so much because you want to deny him pain but simply to ease the burden on yourselves. You’ve gone through too much these past few days. An easy lynch would be relieving.

The rope is fastened around his neck while his body is held up by three guardmen. The plank is dropped and his body falls hard and limp. There is very little physical thrashing and he never even appears to wake up.

You quickly take off to explore his place at a local stablery. You investigate and find dark information on various concoctions that can be made with local herbs for foul purposes. Much of this information is marked with the rune of Saruman.

Day Seven has ended. Night Seven has begun and will end at 3:30 am EST Wednesday morning.

[Alan T]

Daddy, alant is known for hiding stuff, or at least saying he is hiding something when really he is just trying to feel important

Go ahead, keep on attacking me. If you say enough mean things about me, everyone will believe you!

[DaddyTorgo]

NICE. got another!

[Alan T]

Like expected, he was on Saruman's side. Figures they would be pretty upset at LSG for giving us BrianD yesterday. Funny how Sauron's side hasn't been as upset with her.

[LoneStarGirl]

Alant, get over it, all i said is you aren't playing that good a game. Its okay, we all have our days. And I'm not attacking you, what Blade did on day 2 was an attack... This is nothing

[DaddyTorgo]

Like expected, he was on Saruman's side. Figures they would be pretty upset at LSG for giving us BrianD yesterday. Funny how Sauron's side hasn't been as upset with her.

because she hasn't scanned and revealed anyone on that side obviously. gives us an idea of where to start looking.

[LoneStarGirl]

Hopefully ill find me a Sauron tonight

[Alan T]

Alant, get over it, all i said is you aren't playing that good a game. Its okay, we all have our days. And I'm not attacking you, what Blade did on day 2 was an attack... This is nothing

It's ok, I forgive you :)



I'm still voting ntn tommorrow! :)

[DaddyTorgo]

It's ok, I forgive you :)



I'm still voting ntn tommorrow! :)

what if LSG scans and clears ntn?

[LoneStarGirl]

Hey Schmidty, can you guard the same person for as many days in a row as you want?

[Mr. Wednesday]

because she hasn't scanned and revealed anyone on that side obviously.
Or else because she is on that side.

As I said last night, I'm not pushing that viewpoint right now, but it still hasn't been disproven.

[DaddyTorgo]

Or else because she is on that side.

As I said last night, I'm not pushing that viewpoint right now, but it still hasn't been disproven.

true

[DaddyTorgo]

i'm going to be gone most of the day tomorrow. meeting an hour away from like 9-5 and then i gotta get home and then go to compusa and pickup the new machine...so i likely won't be on till ~7, though i will try to check in with my phone as per usual

just an early FYI...assuming i survive the night

[Alan T]

what if LSG scans and clears ntn?

Then I guess I would have to reconsider voting for him.

However since no one has cleared him the 4 - 5 days he's been suspect #1, I don't see that happening.

[Schmidty]

Like expected, he was on Saruman's side. Figures they would be pretty upset at LSG for giving us BrianD yesterday. Funny how Sauron's side hasn't been as upset with her.

Alan, it sounds to me like you're the one being a bit vindictive. Just saying.

I'm not saying you can't suspect who you want, but just because you have a personal thing with her doesn't mean you should throw out accusations. Unless you actually have a reason. If so, tell me now.

I need to know as much info as I can ASAP, so that I can make a good night action decision.

[Schmidty]

Hey Schmidty, can you guard the same person for as many days in a row as you want?

Yes.

[ntndeacon]

I have three or four people on my list, but nobody beleives me about thomkal, i dont know why y'all will beileve me about whoever i reveal tomorrow

For what its worth I believe you. It was easier I think to get the majority against Sublime. I plan on voting for Thomkal tomorrow.

[Alan T]

Alan, it sounds to me like you're the one being a bit vindictive. Just saying.

I'm not saying you can't suspect who you want, but just because you have a personal thing with her doesn't mean you should throw out accusations. Unless you actually have a reason. If so, tell me now.

I need to know as much info as I can ASAP, so that I can make a good night action decision.

Schmidty, I think you did a good job last night with the guard. It got us a bad guy, so I'll trust your judgement with who you guard tonight. I don't have anything to give you to sway your decision to guard anyone else.

Anyhows, I'm not being vindictive at all, she cleared me.. what do I have to seek revenge for? :) I still plan on voting ntn tommorrow however like I have planned every day for the past 4 days though :)

[ntndeacon]

????

(whoops)

yea I would be interested in what he thinks he knows as well.

[Schmidty]

I still plan on voting ntn tommorrow however like I have planned every day for the past 4 days though :)

Cool, but can you give me a quick synopsis of your reasoning just to refresh my memory?

[ntndeacon]

what if LSG scans and clears ntn?

Do you really think that will change Alan's mind? we have a confirmed bad guy already.

[Alan T]

Cool, but can you give me a quick synopsis of your reasoning just to refresh my memory?

All I have is hunches, I don't have any cool seer power to scan suspects with, otherwise I would have scanned ntn long ago. So far though, not one person who has turned up bad has placed a serious vote on ntn, and in fact voted strong for other people to keep him alive.

Ntn has had amazingly long shelf life for someone that hasn't been cleared. People can say i am a crappy WW player if they want, its fine.. but I still have my reasons. :)

[ntndeacon]

Then I guess I would have to reconsider voting for him.

However since no one has cleared him the 4 - 5 days he's been suspect #1, I don't see that happening.

sorry, Alan. I hadn't seen this post yet. :) but my point about a known bad guy still stands.

[LoneStarGirl]

Alant, a couple of nights back you published a COT of sorts, people who you trusted because Swaggs cleared them and Izulde told you were good... I can't find it anywhere, can you publish it again?

[Alan T]

Alant, a couple of nights back you published a COT of sorts, people who you trusted because Swaggs cleared them and Izulde told you were good... I can't find it anywhere, can you publish it again?

Well that was a few days ago, my trust changes daily on things. I can give you my current distrust and unknowns if you want.

Distrust: Ntndeacon

Unknowns: Mr.Wednesday, DaddyTorgo

Dueling banjos err seers: Thomkal, Lonestargirl.

I assume 1 of the 2 seers is bad if not both, I assume at least 1 if not both of the unknowns is bad, however Swaggs did speak on Mr.W's behalf but we could not figure out if it meant for sure Mr.W was good or just not on Thomkal's team. And I assume ntndeacon is bad.

Anyone else not listed here I'm not really worried about right now.

[LoneStarGirl]

So you aren't worried about Gramm, or Jonathan or Tyrith?

[Alan T]

Oh completely forgot about Tyrith. boy he fell under the radar fast. Well Thomkal "cleared" Tyrith today, but i would put him in the category with Mr.W who also was "cleared" by thomkal.

Jon was cleared by lots of people, I think he is ok. Gramm I'm ok with too