Werewolf XXXVII: Middle-Earth - GAME ENDS. Who Won? Check it out!

[Izulde]

Stuff like forgetting that she had played with you before seems highly unlikely to be wolfish to me. A fact that can be easily checked is a bad choice of fact to try to pass off on the rest of us. I wish you'd come up with some other reason than her being quiet to suspect her because votes like this will set off alarms with most of the people in this game.

I'm largely going based off my past experiences with her and a strong hunch. Could I be wrong? Possibly. But based on the current situation, I'm pretty darned certain she's bad.

[Izulde]

Do you know what the voting oddity was?

Switching off on to someone else after the lynch had been assured. I want to say it was the Chief Rum vote, but I know it was one of the votes.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

So you were pushing for a lynch for someone based on a voting oddity that you weren't sure of? Seems odd to me.

[Izulde]

So you were pushing for a lynch for someone based on a voting oddity that you weren't sure of? Seems odd to me.

I wouldn't say I wasn't sure of it.

Rather, I knew the voting oddity occurred and the shape of it.. and I remembered that it happened on a lynch that turned out to be good.

[LoneStarGirl]

Jonathan, izulde is picking at straws.

[BrianD]

I do find your moves suspicious so far. The late meaningless move onto a bad guy, followed by the insistence the next day that no bad guys could possibly have known he was bad when in fact it hasn't been proved one way or another.


That is a flat lie. I never insisted any such thing. By reading the death notice, I said that is looked likely that he wasn't on either bad team. That is it. You can find a reason to vote for me, but don't make one up.


The next two days managing to stay off of the person being lynched (day 2 when it was villager vs villager) and yesterday when it was villager vs unknown are a little less suspicious, but just adds to what i saw on day 1.


Not managed to stay off the person being lynched, being outvoted. Slight difference there.


In this game the bad guys don't necessarily know who all the other bad guys are, but they just know who isn't on their team.

No argument here.

[Alan T]

That is a flat lie. I never insisted any such thing. By reading the death notice, I said that is looked likely that he wasn't on either bad team. That is it. You can find a reason to vote for me, but don't make one up.



Not managed to stay off the person being lynched, being outvoted. Slight difference there.



No argument here.

I would hate for facts to get in the way of a good story and all, but I already spent about an hour looking through posts to find which people I felt fit a certain profile. Right now the ones that stood out to me most were you, Mr.Wednesday and Ntndeacon.

Below are the posts from you on the subject, I did not include the interplay Mr.Wednesday had with you going back and forth, but to me you two sure did seem to easily conclude it was fact that bad guys didn't know Scoobz was on their team. It seemed awfully convienant for you two that would be the case considering your actions that day.



Is it possible they didn't know he was Dark?

I agree that none of them would take out a member of their own faction, but if one or more were dark and on the same team, they may not have knows that Scoobz was on the other dark team (or was a dark independent).

It will be nice when we get another dark guy taken out so we can compare the death messages. I agree that it sounds like Scoobz was non-affiliated, but I'm still not sure if I positively believe he was non-affiliated. A comparison message would be nice.

Either way, he was dark and it is good that he is dead. It just makes me nervous when I don't know how many bad teams there are.

I am going to disagree with this. His info on page one says he was "on the side of darkness". Fouts info says he was "on the side of Light and the townsfolks". If Scoobz was on the side of Saruman, I think it would say so specifically.

[Swaggs]

I am not so sure that some of the guys on the block now are bad candidates, but I am going in a different direction today. For me, this person is reminding me a lot of how I behaved the first couple of times I was a werewolf.

Vote Daddy Torgo

I've nailed a few people this way before, so I'm going my own way today, just based on WW experience.

[BrianD]

I would hate for facts to get in the way of a good story and all, but I already spent about an hour looking through posts to find which people I felt fit a certain profile. Right now the ones that stood out to me most were you, Mr.Wednesday and Ntndeacon.

Below are the posts from you on the subject, I did not include the interplay Mr.Wednesday had with you going back and forth, but to me you two sure did seem to easily conclude it was fact that bad guys didn't know Scoobz was on their team. It seemed awfully convienant for you two that would be the case considering your actions that day.

I don't think you at all proved what you were trying to. You have also said: In this game the bad guys don't necessarily know who all the other bad guys are, but they just know who isn't on their team.

From the death notice, and knowing that we get full faction reveals on death, it looks to me like Scoobz wasn't on either bad team. Seems like a logical conclusion that if he wasn't on either bad team and the bad guys know only who is on their team (which you suggest and is reasonable), then the bad guys wouldn't have known that Scoobz was bad.

I'm not positive that this is the case, but basic reading comprehension sure seems to imply it.

[Alan T]

I don't think you at all proved what you were trying to. You have also said:

From the death notice, and knowing that we get full faction reveals on death, it looks to me like Scoobz wasn't on either bad team. Seems like a logical conclusion that if he wasn't on either bad team and the bad guys know only who is on their team (which you suggest and is reasonable), then the bad guys wouldn't have known that Scoobz was bad.

I'm not positive that this is the case, but basic reading comprehension sure seems to imply it.

You can argue the fact whether or not people knew of Scoobz' affiliation before his death or not. However saying that I am lying about you making that arguement when you fully admit it now doesn't fly :)

There is a very big difference between the way Scoobz was posted and Sndvls who was an independant was posted. I was looking for someone who seem as a possible tie to Lathum's death plus some tie to Scoobz' vote with voting irregularity and the three matches I found were you, Mr.W and Ntndeacon.

The interplay between you and Mr.W as the ones pushing that Scoobz was not known now looks fishier to me than it did when you all did it. Until I see another dead bad guy with a faction listed as Saruman or sauron, I will believe that unaffiliated roles will be listed like Sndvls was and not like Scoobz was.

[Sublime 2]

The reasons for sublime are based on this game only...my reasons for izulde are heavily based upon the fact last time i saw him play, in which he was evil, i feel he played basically the exact same game. So take it for what you will, but no one can accuse me of not saying what im thinking

Oh, and now i have a 4th canidate, becuase they werent killed last night. If this person doesnt die tonight, they will go much further up my list.

Just to clarify, you do know this is my first game right? Therefore, your reasons couldn't be based on any other game. And unless I missed it, I have yet to hear your reasoning for your suspicion. It's tough to defend myself against vague suspicion lists, atleast Tyrith tried to bring some reason to it.

I'm going to play devil's advocate for a second and go with the people blade has been talking about. Saldana, well, I've never liked him....oh, wait, you mean he's dead already? Aw. :P

Sublime 2 - Hasn't been on the lynched candidate either of the last two days. His posts generally seem to indicate he's just trying to do the right thing and he's a little overwhelmed right now....if this isn't setting off alarms in your head considering who is posting this, it should be. I pulled off this BS scheme before. The fact that he wasn't on the lynchee means we can't read his votes, so we don't know what side he's on. Would a more experienced bad guy help along with this plan? I certainly think it's possible. I started picking up a real bad vibe about Sublime yesterday because of the parallels with myself, so consider me suspicious.

Izulde - I really don't know. I read over his posts yesterday evening and didn't get anything too alarming...but now that I look again, the accusations do cause problems. I'm suspicious here too, but I don't have nearly as much to back it up. Sublime would come first if I were to vote between the two.

I'm still suspicious of most of the quieter people that have done middle-late votes on rum and kwhit...gram for sure, lsg, Mr.W (would be playing a really nice game because he's doing his best to make it seem like he's a team player), and Thomkal. And with Schmidty....well, he could be dropping hints he has a really big role, or there could be some nonsense going on.


I'll admit, this may have been a bad game for me to get start my WW career, due to the size and the complexity, BUT I assure you it's 100% pure overwhelmed behavior. I find myself, reading then re-reading posts just to make sure I'm understanding exactly what the person meant. But I still atleast can understand where your suspicion comes from, you've tried the overwhelmed schtick before, it's Blade, and to a lesser extent LSG who I haven't seen much from in the form of reasoning.

[Thomkal]

Alright, this is eventually going to get me lynched, but the new and improved list:

1.Sublime
2.Izulde
2.Thomkal

2 and 3 are tied for 2

4.?? is a ways back, and is now strongly tied to #2b

It may get you lynched sooner than you expect. I am a villager as I've said all along. I think the only reason you have me on that list is because I find it suspicious you weren't killed last night when you yourself expected it. I've thought since the beginning you were a fellow villager, but now I'm really beginning to have my doubts. You were wrong about saldana on your previous list, and you are wrong about me. So I don't think we should be trusting your instincts right now.

[Blade6119]

It may get you lynched sooner than you expect. I am a villager as I've said all along. I think the only reason you have me on that list is because I find it suspicious you weren't killed last night when you yourself expected it. I've thought since the beginning you were a fellow villager, but now I'm really beginning to have my doubts. You were wrong about saldana on your previous list, and you are wrong about me. So I don't think we should be trusting your instincts right now.

Im not the death you suspected that worries me about you

[Lorena]

Well, I just spent a good chunk of time looking through posts and my head is starting to hurt. A couple of people jump out at me.

I filtered my spreadsheet to people who voted for both CR and Kwhit (both known good) and throwaway votes on Day 1 (I'm still of the belief that Day 1 DOES mean something), and the following match:

Mr. W (voted for spleen on Day 1)
Schmidty (voted for fouts Day 1)

I like Schmidty and all, but like JE mentioned, after Schmidty said he had an important role and is still alive (in spite of 3 deaths last night), I'm starting to suspect him more.

Vote Schmidty

I get the paranoia when AlanT mentions your name, but I also think that your wittiness is deflecting attention away from yourself.

[Tyrith]

Well, I just spent a good chunk of time looking through posts and my head is starting to hurt. A couple of people jump out at me.

I filtered my spreadsheet to people who voted for both CR and Kwhit (both known good) and throwaway votes on Day 1 (I'm still of the belief that Day 1 DOES mean something), and the following match:

Mr. W (voted for spleen on Day 1)
Schmidty (voted for fouts Day 1)

I like Schmidty and all, but like JE mentioned, after Schmidty said he had an important role and is still alive (in spite of 3 deaths last night), I'm starting to suspect him more.

Vote Schmidty

I get the paranoia when AlanT mentions your name, but I also think that your wittiness is deflecting attention away from yourself.

I really, really don't like this vote. The wolves could very well have left schmidty live because they feared he would be guarded and/or someone hoped someone would do exactly this. Furthermore, one of the deaths last night was something the bad guys couldn't have known anything about barring a role scanning ability. This is really fishy to me.

[BrianD]

You can argue the fact whether or not people knew of Scoobz' affiliation before his death or not. However saying that I am lying about you making that arguement when you fully admit it now doesn't fly :)

I don't now what you are getting at here other than trying to make stuff up. You attributed to me the statement that "There is no way the bad guys could have possibly known he was bad". I never said that. I said they probably didn't know he was bad. You are trying to claim that I have perfect knowledge of what the bad guys do and don't know. I don't. I was just tryign to figure out stuff like everyone else.

There is a very big difference between the way Scoobz was posted and Sndvls who was an independant was posted. I was looking for someone who seem as a possible tie to Lathum's death plus some tie to Scoobz' vote with voting irregularity and the three matches I found were you, Mr.W and Ntndeacon.

There is a difference, probably because their status was different. According to the rules:
There will be two sides in this game, the side of light and the side of dark. Almost every player will be on one side or the other.

This clearly implies that there will be some neither light nor dark..like SnDvls.

Also from the rules:
On each side there are two factions, almost every player will be in one or the other faction, although a few outsiders may exist.

This is a hidden roles game. No roles are revealed prior to beginning, although faction affiliation and the name of the role are revealed upon death. The role itself, may remain a mystery.

These lines tell me that there can also be light or dark who aren't members of a faction...like Scoobz. It also tells me that "faction affiliation...are revealed upon death"

The interplay between you and Mr.W as the ones pushing that Scoobz was not known now looks fishier to me than it did when you all did it. Until I see another dead bad guy with a faction listed as Saruman or sauron, I will believe that unaffiliated roles will be listed like Sndvls was and not like Scoobz was.

So basically you aren't saying that I am wrong, you are saying the rules are wrong. Even though the rules say faction affiliation will be revealed on death, you are pushing the position that my believing that factions will be revealed upon death makes me bad.

Is that really the argument you want to make?

[Schmidty]

Well, I just spent a good chunk of time looking through posts and my head is starting to hurt. A couple of people jump out at me.

I filtered my spreadsheet to people who voted for both CR and Kwhit (both known good) and throwaway votes on Day 1 (I'm still of the belief that Day 1 DOES mean something), and the following match:

Mr. W (voted for spleen on Day 1)
Schmidty (voted for fouts Day 1)

I like Schmidty and all, but like JE mentioned, after Schmidty said he had an important role and is still alive (in spite of 3 deaths last night), I'm starting to suspect him more.

Vote Schmidty

I get the paranoia when AlanT mentions your name, but I also think that your wittiness is deflecting attention away from yourself.

Another wasted vote.

Part of the reason I'm still alive is because of my role.

Quite honestly, I don't fear the lynch. I do, however, fear what losing me would mean to Bree. All I want to do is help the townsfolk.

That's all I'm going to say about it. If you aren't going to believe me, you're not going believe me.

[Thomkal]

Im not the death you suspected that worries me about you

You thought you might be killed last night, and gave a list of people that you thought were evil. So why shouldn't I be surprised you are still alive?

[Lorena]

I'm largely going based off my past experiences with her and a strong hunch. Could I be wrong? Possibly. But based on the current situation, I'm pretty darned certain she's bad.

Yes I have played with you. Remember that beginner game? And that other one game I was in where I got night killed early, you may have been in that, too.

Did everyone receive a name with their roles?

I know Alan did. I did also.

Not to say that you are not, but I find it interesting that you haven't come out and said that you are on the side of light. Instead you are kind of attacking back at Alan.

It's no joke at all. With 25 people, this is still like a day 1 vote. I doubt either of these guys are on the dark side, either, but it worked yesterday. And, if it turns out that this is a close, two-man race, vote, we may be able to look back on today's and yesterday's votes to put together a decent list of suspects, particularly since we did hit yesterday.

I can understand your frustration, but don't play angry. Play smart.

Outside of a seer or witness fingering someone, what is enough to justify voting for someone on day 1 or day 2? If you want no lynch, that is fine, but I think it is smart to build a track record and start taking using the tools available to us to solve things.

Why did you vote for me, then?

I am one of the few people that have come out and said I am on the side of light and I put out my position that, agree with me or not, I feel like we need to vote/lynch someone because it is one of the only tools available to us, yet you vote for me because I am being suspicious.

Oh you voted for swaggs. ok my bad. I'll fix that. I didnt read clearly. sorry am trying to get the place cleaned up too

I really, really don't like this vote. The wolves could very well have left schmidty live because they feared he would be guarded and/or someone hoped someone would do exactly this. Furthermore, one of the deaths last night was something the bad guys couldn't have known anything about barring a role scanning ability. This is really fishy to me.

Fishy? Why would it be fishy? Like I said, I filtered my spreadsheet and Schmidty and Mr. W voted for different people other than Scoobz who was a known baddie.

I can easily switch my vote to Mr. W since he met the criteria as well.

[Blade6119]

You thought you might be killed last night, and gave a list of people that you thought were evil. So why shouldn't I be surprised you are still alive?

You shouldnt be suprised, thats one of the perks of my play style. Wolves tend to leave me alone at night since they think ill be lynched soon enough. But if you somehow think, with how i acted on day 1, ive made it this far without being scanned your simply not thinking clearly. If im bad you will know whenever the seer comes forward.

But again, it doesnt sound like your listening. I said i was not my suspected death that worried me about you, it was your comments about schmidty

[Mr. Wednesday]

I'm still suspicious of most of the quieter people that have done middle-late votes on rum and kwhit... [...] Mr.W (would be playing a really nice game because he's doing his best to make it seem like he's a team player)[...]
My usual wolf strategy is to try to play as much like my non-wolf game as possible. It's great for nobody suspecting I'm a wolf, but not so good for managing the game to get a win. :-/

I might very well have voted (and argued) exactly as I have so far if I were on the side of darkness... so you're going to have to trust me when I tell you I'm a normal townsperson with the best interests of the people of Bree at heart.

[Alan T]

I don't now what you are getting at here other than trying to make stuff up. You attributed to me the statement that "There is no way the bad guys could have possibly known he was bad". I never said that. I said they probably didn't know he was bad. You are trying to claim that I have perfect knowledge of what the bad guys do and don't know. I don't. I was just tryign to figure out stuff like everyone else.



There is a difference, probably because their status was different. According to the rules:


This clearly implies that there will be some neither light nor dark..like SnDvls.

Also from the rules:


These lines tell me that there can also be light or dark who aren't members of a faction...like Scoobz. It also tells me that "faction affiliation...are revealed upon death"



So basically you aren't saying that I am wrong, you are saying the rules are wrong. Even though the rules say faction affiliation will be revealed on death, you are pushing the position that my believing that factions will be revealed upon death makes me bad.

Is that really the argument you want to make?

You seem to be arguing semantics, I quoted the posts where you were telling people that you felt that bad guys wouldn't know Scoobz' role and you are arguing about things that I quoted you saying. You then go on to further argue the point that I am saying that you are arguing in the first place :confused:


Of course the rules aren't wrong, and I still have reason to believe that everything isn't as cut and dry as you and Mr.Wednesday seemed to make them out to be (especially since making them out that cut and dry benefit you and Mr.Wednesday the most).

[Lorena]

Uhh... wtf was that? I had this stuff quoted because I was looking at swaggs posts because he's another one I suspect.

Oh well, whatever. I suspect Swaggs as well because he's been utr and seems to be playing the same kind of game he did in the SAW game when he ended up being evil.

Izulde, well, he's a different story.

[Lorena]

Gosh darnit, I get so easily swayed.

Unvote Schmidty
Vote Mr. Wednesday

They both meet the criteria, I'll give Schmidty the benefit of the doubt.

I haven't eaten so I gotta get my grub on... be back in a few.

[Alan T]

Uhh... wtf was that? I had this stuff quoted because I was looking at swaggs posts because he's another one I suspect.

Oh well, whatever. I suspect Swaggs as well because he's been utr and seems to be playing the same kind of game he did in the SAW game when he ended up being evil.

Izulde, well, he's a different story.

lol... well I was reading it and figured something like that happened. Looks like your thought process was trying to find a link between Swaggs and me. :)

I can easily say I have no link with Swaggs this game and I doubt he knows anything about me other than what I said in the thread. I would love to hear more of his thoughts on Daddy Torgo, but as of right now I think he's probably barking up the wrong tree. Inn keeping along with that general line of thinking, I would love for him to be a bit more involved so we have more to base our thoughts and opinions on.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Below are the posts from you on the subject, I did not include the interplay Mr.Wednesday had with you going back and forth, but to me you two sure did seem to easily conclude it was fact that bad guys didn't know Scoobz was on their team.
I concluded it independently of anyone else, and I don't think Brian was even the most prominent in agreeing with my. Tyrith did as well.

So far, the only logic you've offered for the opposing position is some LOTR-theme gobbledygook. Convince me I'm wrong: since the dark adept is clearly NOT in a particular faction (Anxiety has clearly stated that factions are revealed upon death), why do the bad guys know who the dark adept was?

[Alan T]

I concluded it independently of anyone else, and I don't think Brian was even the most prominent in agreeing with my. Tyrith did as well.

So far, the only logic you've offered for the opposing position is some LOTR-theme gobbledygook. Convince me I'm wrong: since the dark adept is clearly NOT in a particular faction (Anxiety has clearly stated that factions are revealed upon death), why do the bad guys know who the dark adept was?

How am I supposed to know what the bad guys knew?? If you and BrianD are sure that you all didn't know who Scoobz was before hand, then fine I'll admit that one of the bad guy's sides didn't know him!

Seriously though, like I said before I based my suspect list on those who voted Lathum day 2 and had weird votes on day 1 involving Scoobz. The whole knowing or not knowing about Scoobz was something interesting I picked up along the way. I still won't be suprised to find out that you guys knew ahead of time.

[BrianD]

You seem to be arguing semantics, I quoted the posts where you were telling people that you felt that bad guys wouldn't know Scoobz' role and you are arguing about things that I quoted you saying. You then go on to further argue the point that I am saying that you are arguing in the first place :confused:

Do you really think I am arguing semantics, or is that just the current game you are playing? You have been characterizing my posts in a very specific way. I'll quote you again:

I do find your moves suspicious so far. The late meaningless move onto a bad guy, followed by the insistence the next day that no bad guys could possibly have known he was bad when in fact it hasn't been proved one way or another.

I never insisted any such thing, and claiming that I did is like saying that I must be bad because I know what the bad guys are thinkin. You also say that I am stating something as fact when it hasn't been proven yet. What I was doing was trying to have the discussion which might lead to a general understanding of what was going on with the death reports. I didn't "know" I was right, but based on the rules as written, I thought my ideas were worth adding to the discussion.


Of course the rules aren't wrong, and I still have reason to believe that everything isn't as cut and dry as you and Mr.Wednesday seemed to make them out to be (especially since making them out that cut and dry benefit you and Mr.Wednesday the most).

Actually, I am just trying to help everyone out. I have no idea what Mr.Wed is doing, but I would guess the same thing. The rules seem pretty straightforward. They say that factions will be revealed upon death. If we have someone without a faction revealed, I have to assume that he didn't have one. The rules are also very clear that there will be independent folks, and those with their own victory conditions. You are insisting that we can't actually believe the rules. I am trying to clarify things, why are you trying to make them less clear?

[BrianD]

How am I supposed to know what the bad guys knew?? If you and BrianD are sure that you all didn't know who Scoobz was before hand, then fine I'll admit that one of the bad guy's sides didn't know him!

Seriously though, like I said before I based my suspect list on those who voted Lathum day 2 and had weird votes on day 1 involving Scoobz. The whole knowing or not knowing about Scoobz was something interesting I picked up along the way. I still won't be suprised to find out that you guys knew ahead of time.

So now you aren't really accusing us of what you were accusing us of, but we still probably knew anyway. Nice. :)

[Tyrith]

Thinking about day 1...it's possible, although I suspect not terribly likely, that scoobz was unaffiliated and they knew who he was. Something like the master/apprentice scenario from the sith game, where they could bring him to their side and knew his identify, but he was blind.

[Lorena]

lol... well I was reading it and figured something like that happened. Looks like your thought process was trying to find a link between Swaggs and me. :)


Alan, you scare me sometimes with your analysis, that's exactly what I thought.

[Alan T]

So now you aren't really accusing us of what you were accusing us of, but we still probably knew anyway. Nice. :)

If I knew for sure that you and/or Mr.W were bad, then I would come out and say: "I know you and/or Mr.W are bad!"

Obviously there was some tongue in cheek in my response to Mr.W but thats mostly because you all are arguing the side thought that I had which I found interesting rather than the reason I am suspicious of you.

I still feel there is some validity with lathum dying to what looks like a different killer than most of the normal night kills to look at who was voting for him during the day. I then narrowed it down further by seeing who had voting weirdness on day 1 involving someone who ended up a bad guy (whether you knew he was bad or not before hand). That narrowed the list down to three names. You, Mr.W and Ntndeacon (who I voted for yesterday and so far today).

Once I had that list narrowed down I spent an hour or so looking over the posts from that group. Of course I didn't find much from ntndeacon because he has been quieter than a stump. I saw the stuff from you and Mr.W and thought it was interesting enough to mention it and it added to my suspicions.

So from my viewpoint, you all are making a huge fuss over the part I found interesting and totally ignoring what put me in your direction in the first place (the ties to lathum)

[Alan T]

Thinking about day 1...it's possible, although I suspect not terribly likely, that scoobz was unaffiliated and they knew who he was. Something like the master/apprentice scenario from the sith game, where they could bring him to their side and knew his identify, but he was blind.

That is one of my thoughts, but like I have said the entire game, until we know more well we won't know for sure. I just found it interesting when people were trying to push a certain idea or agenda when we don't really know the full story.

[Lorena]

Why is this game so darn addicting? (BTW, I'm having a hard time keeping it clean).

Okay, i'm really gone now.

[Thomkal]

You shouldnt be suprised, thats one of the perks of my play style. Wolves tend to leave me alone at night since they think ill be lynched soon enough. But if you somehow think, with how i acted on day 1, ive made it this far without being scanned your simply not thinking clearly. If im bad you will know whenever the seer comes forward.

But again, it doesnt sound like your listening. I said i was not my suspected death that worried me about you, it was your comments about schmidty

The fact that a seer hasn't come forward yet and mentioned you is what makes me think you are a villager as I'm sure you were an early scan target. I just don't like the fact that you pegged Saldana wrong, and now me.

And I was listening, I just misunderstood your post. :) Why shouldn't I have expected Schmidty to be a night-kill? He's the first one in this game to really reveal as a good-aligned role, and perhaps a powerful one at that. I suppose the bad guys might have thought he be guarded, but he might of been worth the risk too.

I just thought this needed to be discussed, as I'm sure I'm not the only one who had their suspicions raised.

[Tyrith]

Okay, I'm thinking we have better people to lynch than sublime for today. Mr.W, Brian, and Izulde have managed to ratchet up the list today.

UNVOTE SUBLIME

[BrianD]

That is one of my thoughts, but like I have said the entire game, until we know more well we won't know for sure. I just found it interesting when people were trying to push a certain idea or agenda when we don't really know the full story.

Is it really an agenda to say that I think this situation is detailed specifically in the rules?

There was even a question for Anxiety about the faction identifiers in the report and his only answer was that he thought it was quite clear (or something to that effect). Who has the agenda?

[Blade6119]

The fact that a seer hasn't come forward yet and mentioned you is what makes me think you are a villager as I'm sure you were an early scan target. I just don't like the fact that you pegged Saldana wrong, and now me.

And I was listening, I just misunderstood your post. :) Why shouldn't I have expected Schmidty to be a night-kill? He's the first one in this game to really reveal as a good-aligned role, and perhaps a powerful one at that. I suppose the bad guys might have thought he be guarded, but he might of been worth the risk too.

I just thought this needed to be discussed, as I'm sure I'm not the only one who had their suspicions raised.

The fact he wasnt killed makes me think hes either bad or the bad guys want us to do it for them. Yourself and DC have been the two i noticed, maybe i missed others, who have tried to push suspicion on him. Thats in line with #2, but not #1...so who knows

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Rather, I knew the voting oddity occurred and the shape of it.. and I remembered that it happened on a lynch that turned out to be good.

You consider the CR lynch a good one?

[Alan T]

Is it really an agenda to say that I think this situation is detailed specifically in the rules?

There was even a question for Anxiety about the faction identifiers in the report and his only answer was that he thought it was quite clear (or something to that effect). Who has the agenda?

I think the agenda is more the non-acceptance of possibilities that may lie within the rules but not spelled out by them. Tyrith mentioned one such possibility.

[BrianD]

If I knew for sure that you and/or Mr.W were bad, then I would come out and say: "I know you and/or Mr.W are bad!"

Obviously there was some tongue in cheek in my response to Mr.W but thats mostly because you all are arguing the side thought that I had which I found interesting rather than the reason I am suspicious of you.

I still feel there is some validity with lathum dying to what looks like a different killer than most of the normal night kills to look at who was voting for him during the day. I then narrowed it down further by seeing who had voting weirdness on day 1 involving someone who ended up a bad guy (whether you knew he was bad or not before hand). That narrowed the list down to three names. You, Mr.W and Ntndeacon (who I voted for yesterday and so far today).

Once I had that list narrowed down I spent an hour or so looking over the posts from that group. Of course I didn't find much from ntndeacon because he has been quieter than a stump. I saw the stuff from you and Mr.W and thought it was interesting enough to mention it and it added to my suspicions.

So from my viewpoint, you all are making a huge fuss over the part I found interesting and totally ignoring what put me in your direction in the first place (the ties to lathum)

If you want to be suspicious of my moves, that is fine. I'm trying to knock out the bad guys, but you are allowed to see suspicion in my moves. The fact that you combined suspicion with the rules discussion seems like bad logic. The fact that you are now backing off and calling that discussion "interesting" doesn't change the fact that you used bad logic to throw a lot of heat my way. You have been trying to run things all game and you have used bad logic to point at me, Mr. Wed, and Blade. That makes me trust you very little.

[Tyrith]

My opinion on schmidty is that we have to let him go for today. Then if he's alive tomorrow we can torture him for a while, see what he says he actually is, then go from there. But today we'd be firing in the dark, and I have to think that the bad guys thought he might have been guarded if he's good.

[Izulde]

You consider the CR lynch a good one?

You're misinterpreting my meaning. By good lynch I meant that CR turned out to be good.

[BrianD]

I think the agenda is more the non-acceptance of possibilities that may lie within the rules but not spelled out by them. Tyrith mentioned one such possibility.

I think you are trying not to hear me. Tyrith's possibility is definitely a possibility. That is why I have been saying things like the bad guys probably didn't know Scoobz was bad. They might have known. We haven't even really been discussing this. We've been talking about the faction of Scoobz. In the posts you quoted, I was coming to the belief that he wasn't in a faction. From what we've seen since those votes, I now strongly believe he wasn't in a faction.

I haven't used the rules to say anything about what the bad guys did or didn't know. I have used them to support my belief that Scoobz wasn't in a bad faction.

The fact that you link Tyrith's possibility with my discussion of the rules when they are not connected seems like an attempt to throw more suspicion on me. You are playing games with logic and people should be looking at why you are doing this.

[Tyrith]

Is this game going to be defined by constant, incessant bickering? We might have to start killing people just to get some peace and quiet in here!

[Alan T]

If you want to be suspicious of my moves, that is fine. I'm trying to knock out the bad guys, but you are allowed to see suspicion in my moves. The fact that you combined suspicion with the rules discussion seems like bad logic. The fact that you are now backing off and calling that discussion "interesting" doesn't change the fact that you used bad logic to throw a lot of heat my way. You have been trying to run things all game and you have used bad logic to point at me, Mr. Wed, and Blade. That makes me trust you very little.


Please tell me how I'm backing off now? I've said all along the entire time that what led me to being suspicious of you and Mr.W and Ntndeacon was based on the following posts. For crying out loud I have my vote on ntndeacon who wasn't even involved in the discussion about whether or not you knew who scoobz was before hand.

Your comment that I have been trying to run things all game is insulting and untrue. I've done nothing but try to get others to give their reasons for things and to try to get others to drive stuff and not just hop on my feelings alone. I don't mind if you disagree with me or suspect me, but don't be insulting.


I actually was starting to distrust St.Cronin based mainly on him still being around. He was an active player without any lynching heat on him trying to drive people to logical methods of voting (whether you agreed with his logic or not, he applied a very detailed and thought out reasons for why he felt we should do what they are doing.)

That is the exact type of player that I would expect to be night killed, so if he was still around much longer I likely would have started to get suspicious of him.

Now that we know what we do about the day 2 vote between Lathum and Chief we know it was villager vs villager run off. Its pretty funny though that Tyrith predicted St.Cronin's death in a pool of blood last night.

I'm wondering if there is any value in looking at the people who have been hiding their votes somewhat. Something like Brian's voting pattern jumps out at me. Day one vote for Spleen (with late jump to Scoobz after he was already surely lynched), day 2 vote for Lathum and day 3 vote for Tyrith.

Oh Good grief Blade, get over the persecuted act already. In the quote you posted, you can very clearly see I was refering to Brian's voting patterns and have followed it up with discussion on him. What in your mind could you possibly think that post had anything whatsoever to do with you?

Oh I forgot, every one of my posts is a subtle hint to try to get you lynched.

Well to get back to the point i was -trying- to make before that intermission...

I do find your moves suspicious so far. The late meaningless move onto a bad guy, followed by the insistence the next day that no bad guys could possibly have known he was bad when in fact it hasn't been proved one way or another.

The next two days managing to stay off of the person being lynched (day 2 when it was villager vs villager) and yesterday when it was villager vs unknown are a little less suspicious, but just adds to what i saw on day 1.

In this game the bad guys don't necessarily know who all the other bad guys are, but they just know who isn't on their team.

I was debating something similar. One of my thoughts was someone who voted for Lathum day 2, and once he fell out of the lynch spotlight went ahead and night killed him last night. My thinking is the Lathum kill was Saruman's "assassination" kill action and that once again drew me to thinking about people who wern't fond of killing Scoobz on night1.

This thinking is what actually led me to BrianD in looking at voting patterns this morning, but ntndeacon follows the same pattern. Day 1 Swaggs, day 2 Lathum. Mr. Wednesday also seems to fit the pattern some too. (which you can see where I based my immediate distrust list from.)

I voted ntndeacon yesterday due to him being super under the radar, and the fact he seems to fit in the profile that I can invision a bad guy in, I wouldn't have a problem voting for him again today. (That and the contribution he made after I voted for him yesterday was mostly rehashing already stated arguements).

[Mr. Wednesday]

Thinking about day 1...it's possible, although I suspect not terribly likely, that scoobz was unaffiliated and they knew who he was. Something like the master/apprentice scenario from the sith game, where they could bring him to their side and knew his identify, but he was blind.

Interesting... I didn't play in that game, what was the mechanic?

I was tying him into past games where there was the "sorceror" role (on the side of the bad guys but functioned like a good guy) or a "designated conversion target" role.

[BrianD]

I was tying him into past games where there was the "sorceror" role (on the side of the bad guys but functioned like a good guy) or a "designated conversion target" role.

That was pretty much my view as well.

[Mr. Wednesday]

followed by the insistence the next day that no bad guys could possibly have known he was bad when in fact it hasn't been proved one way or another.
Not to be confused with your insistance on treating it like the bad guys MUST HAVE KNOWN he was bad, when in fact it hasn't been proved one way or the other.

I thought that a mechanic where they would have known was unlikely, but I didn't realize that such had been used before.

[Alan T]

Is this game going to be defined by constant, incessant bickering? We might have to start killing people just to get some peace and quiet in here!

No one will probably believe me, but with it being a LotR WW, I figured what the heck, I'll come in not throw around accusations and enjoy it a bit. =\

[BrianD]

Enough of the bickering with me involved...

Hey Blade, Alan said that none of your Hobbit family could grow hair on their feet. Go get him. :D

[Alan T]

Not to be confused with your insistance on treating it like the bad guys MUST HAVE KNOWN he was bad, when in fact it hasn't been proved one way or the other.

I thought that a mechanic where they would have known was unlikely, but I didn't realize that such had been used before.

I haven't insisted that at all. The only thing i have insisted is that its not cut and dry on whether or not the bad guys knew who he was. I still say that this is not the meat of my discussion and was something interesting I noticed in following up in reading posts.

By no means was my intention to use Point B to prove point A was true when it had to be that point A was true for Point B to even matter. I feel like you all have been trying to turn this into a circular discussion about the part I found interesting rather than about what actually brought me to looking at you two in the first place.

[Tyrith]

No one will probably believe me, but with it being a LotR WW, I figured what the heck, I'll come in not throw around accusations and enjoy it a bit. =\

You just seem really good at finding people to fuss at you today. I'm not really sure what to make of it....we could really use a CoT right now.

[Mr. Wednesday]

How am I supposed to know what the bad guys knew?? If you and BrianD are sure that you all didn't know who Scoobz was before hand, then fine I'll admit that one of the bad guy's sides didn't know him! I'm not a bad guy, so of course I didn't know he was bad (or good, or anything else... I did think he was a good lynch candidate, but I thought the lack of a second viable candidate was a TERRIBLE idea, and I still think we misplayed that vote). Dunno about BrianD, obviously. I've gone into my reasons for thinking that the bad guys didn't know him, ad nauseum.

Seriously though, like I said before I based my suspect list on those who voted Lathum day 2
:confused:

We now know that day 2 was a villager vs. villager runoff. I don't understand the motives you're ascribing to the bad guys.

It almost looks to me like you set up a suspect list at some point from a working assumption that Lathum was a bad guy; if that's the case, I sincerely hope you've scrapped it completely and reworked it from scratch.

[BrianD]

I haven't insisted that at all. The only thing i have insisted is that its not cut and dry on whether or not the bad guys knew who he was. I still say that this is not the meat of my discussion and was something interesting I noticed in following up in reading posts.

By no means was my intention to use Point B to prove point A was true when it had to be that point A was true for Point B to even matter. I feel like you all have been trying to turn this into a circular discussion about the part I found interesting rather than about what actually brought me to looking at you two in the first place.

Really?

I do find your moves suspicious so far. The late meaningless move onto a bad guy, followed by the insistence the next day that no bad guys could possibly have known he was bad when in fact it hasn't been proved one way or another.

Care to revise that statement?

[Mr. Wednesday]

If you want to be suspicious of my moves, that is fine. I'm trying to knock out the bad guys, but you are allowed to see suspicion in my moves. The fact that you combined suspicion with the rules discussion seems like bad logic. The fact that you are now backing off and calling that discussion "interesting" doesn't change the fact that you used bad logic to throw a lot of heat my way. You have been trying to run things all game and you have used bad logic to point at me, Mr. Wed, and Blade. That makes me trust you very little.

Is it so different from his play in Resident Evil? I don't trust his reasoning or conclusions, but I have no reason at this point to think he's a bad guy.

(I will say that all the flailing around at good guys is a good way for him to stay alive a long time, if not necessarily a winning strategy. :p)

[Alan T]

Really?



Care to revise that statement?

I re-read the two quotes like 5 times and I apologize, but I don't see anything contradictory in there at all.

I will swear up and down that blindly stating that the bad guys did not know about Scoobz in any way pre-lynch as a fact is a bad and suspicious thing. I will swear up and down until we know otherwise that we don't know what possibilities there are.

[BrianD]

Is it so different from his play in Resident Evil? I don't trust his reasoning or conclusions, but I have no reason at this point to think he's a bad guy.

(I will say that all the flailing around at good guys is a good way for him to stay alive a long time, if not necessarily a winning strategy. :p)

No it isn't, and we all saw how well that turned out. :)

This thing is that this would be a perfect wolf strategy, but he plays it as a non-wolf too.

[Alan T]

I'm not a bad guy, so of course I didn't know he was bad (or good, or anything else... I did think he was a good lynch candidate, but I thought the lack of a second viable candidate was a TERRIBLE idea, and I still think we misplayed that vote). Dunno about BrianD, obviously. I've gone into my reasons for thinking that the bad guys didn't know him, ad nauseum.


:confused:

We now know that day 2 was a villager vs. villager runoff. I don't understand the motives you're ascribing to the bad guys.

It almost looks to me like you set up a suspect list at some point from a working assumption that Lathum was a bad guy; if that's the case, I sincerely hope you've scrapped it completely and reworked it from scratch.

I am basing it more on the thought about why was Lathum killed last night. The fact Lathum's death wasn't a normal night kill and it likely came from a different direction of thought than the other night kills.

[Alan T]

No it isn't, and we all saw how well that turned out. :)

This thing is that this would be a perfect wolf strategy, but he plays it as a non-wolf too.

Actually for whatever its worth, this is much different than how I was in RE. In RE I came out pretty strongly every day as facts and pushed really hard on people.

So far this game, almost every fight i have been in has been brought onto me and I've defended myself (albeit defended loudly). I haven't come out once and said I know either of you are bad.

Perhaps everyone would rather it if I did what everyone else did and said: vote soandso because my gut tells me so.

Instead I try to give the reasoning why I came to the conclusion I did today and what is pushing my vote. I think it can stir up conversation and either lead to a consensus on someone, or lead to a new path.

Instead what happens is people have been taking everything super defensively and striking back (Blade, Schmidty, you, Mr.W, etc) and everyone else in the game is afraid to even jump in the discussion.

I dont have any problems with you defending yourself at all and I havent admitted that I know 100% anything about anyone. I do however have my instincts just like anyone else and thats all I can rely on.

[Mr. Wednesday]

I am basing it more on the thought about why was Lathum killed last night. The fact Lathum's death wasn't a normal night kill and it likely came from a different direction of thought than the other night kills.

I don't see that there's really anything to discern, though... from the point of view of the Saruman faction, they wouldn't mind picking off a member of the Sauron faction, so if they really thought Lathum was such, then there would be something to say for trying to push the vote that way -- but that doesn't distinguish them from anyone else in the game aside from the Sauron faction itself. Otherwise, neither faction has any reason to push anything... they can take care of him with their night kill, if they think it necessary, and with both candidates being good guys it's a good time to avoid drawing unnecessary attention.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Alan, I haven't been striking back. I felt very strongly about the Scoobz issue (less so with Tyrith's point about a prior game), but otherwise I've stayed out of debates with you.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Double dola, that should be, less so now.

[BrianD]

I re-read the two quotes like 5 times and I apologize, but I don't see anything contradictory in there at all.

So I am suspicious because of my late vote change and the fact that I thought there was no way the bad guys knew about Scoobz being dark (which I never stated), but you aren't using the fact that I thought there was no way the bad guys knew about Scoobz being dark (which I never stated) as a reason to prove that I'm suspicious. You really don't see a contradiction there?

I will swear up and down that blindly stating that the bad guys did not know about Scoobz in any way pre-lynch as a fact is a bad and suspicious thing. I will swear up and down until we know otherwise that we don't know what possibilities there are.

Oh. My. God. Hi Alan, my name is Brian. You know, the guy you have been having a conversation with all day. How are you? I'm going to say this one more time, and I am going to type slowly to make sure that you get it.

I never said that the bad guys did not know about Scoobz in any way pre-lynch.

One more time.

I never said that the bad guys did not know about Scoobz in any way pre-lynch.

I said that I didn't think Scoobz was in either dark faction. I said the bad guys probably didn't know he was dark. I don't know the exact definition of "probably", but I generally use it to say between 50% and 100%. They might have known he was bad, or they might not. I lean toward the "not", but I never said that the bad guys did not know about Scoobz in any way pre-lynch (guess I got it in a third time).

[Mr. Wednesday]

Triple dola, if you can reference a summary of the votes cast during day 2, I'd be interested in seeing it.

[Alan T]

I don't see that there's really anything to discern, though... from the point of view of the Saruman faction, they wouldn't mind picking off a member of the Sauron faction, so if they really thought Lathum was such, then there would be something to say for trying to push the vote that way -- but that doesn't distinguish them from anyone else in the game aside from the Sauron faction itself. Otherwise, neither faction has any reason to push anything... they can take care of him with their night kill, if they think it necessary, and with both candidates being good guys it's a good time to avoid drawing unnecessary attention.

I am curious then what do you think the reason for Saruman (or whoever) to have killed Lathum that night instead of someone else who was a veteran and hadn't had much heat on them? Some people still had Lathum in distrust lists and it wasn't a full stretch to think that he could end back up in lynch talks.

[Alan T]

Here is vote order. I was second vote on Chief Rum.

(446) Chief rum votes Saldana (1)
(482) Saldana votes Chief Rum (1)
(484) Izulde votes Blade (1)
(501) Jonathan Ezarik votes Daddy Torgo (1)
(504) Alan votes Chief Rum (2)
(532) Sndvls votes St.Cronin (1)
(552) Schmidty votes Chief Rum (3)
(554) BrianD votes Spleen (1)
(555) Lathum votes Chief Rum (4)
(557) St.Cronin votes Lathum (1)
(565) Tyrith votes Lathum (2)
(574) Blade votes Chief Rum (5)
(577) Jonathan Ezarik UNVOTES Daddy Torgo (0) ***
(577) Jonathan Ezarik votes Chief Rum (6)
(583) Mr.Wednesday votes Lathum (3)
(585) Thomkal votes Chief Rum (7)
(593) Grammaticus votes Chief Rum (8)
(594) Swaggs votes Lathum (4)
(595) Ntndeacon votes Lathum (5)
(607) Kwhit votes Lathum (6)
(611) Blade UNVOTES Chief RUm (7) ***
(611) Blade votes Alan (1)
(616) Sublime votes Lathum (7)
(625) Spleen votes Chief Rum (8)
(700) Lonestargirl votes Chief Rum (9)
(704) Tyrith UNVOTES Lathum (6) ***
(704) Tyrith votes Swaggs (1)
(707) BrianD UNVOTES Spleen (0) ***
(707) BrianD votes Lathum (7)
(708) Mr.Wednesday UNVOTES Lathum (6) ***
(708) Mr.Wednesday votes Chief Rum (10)
(712) DaddyTorgo votes Lathum (7)
(738) Izulde UNVOTES Blade (0) ***
(738) Izulde votes Chief Rum (11)
(752) Dodgerchick votes Chief Rum (12)
(758) Kwhit UNVOTES Lathum (6) ***
(758) Kwhit votes Chief Rum (13)
(765) Kwhit UNVOTES Chief Rum (12) ***
(765) Kwhit votes Lathum (7)

This was the day 2 votes you asked for.

[Alan T]

So I am suspicious because of my late vote change and the fact that I thought there was no way the bad guys knew about Scoobz being dark (which I never stated), but you aren't using the fact that I thought there was no way the bad guys knew about Scoobz being dark (which I never stated) as a reason to prove that I'm suspicious. You really don't see a contradiction there?



Oh. My. God. Hi Alan, my name is Brian. You know, the guy you have been having a conversation with all day. How are you? I'm going to say this one more time, and I am going to type slowly to make sure that you get it.

I never said that the bad guys did not know about Scoobz in any way pre-lynch.

One more time.

I never said that the bad guys did not know about Scoobz in any way pre-lynch.

I said that I didn't think Scoobz was in either dark faction. I said the bad guys probably didn't know he was dark. I don't know the exact definition of "probably", but I generally use it to say between 50% and 100%. They might have known he was bad, or they might not. I lean toward the "not", but I never said that the bad guys did not know about Scoobz in any way pre-lynch (guess I got it in a third time).

I think i forgot what we are arguing about here.. As far as I know this discussion has gone:

1) I found the references to the bad guys not knowing scoobz was interesting based on my other suspicions and who was involved.
2) You tell me the rules stated that the bad guys don't know about Scoobz
3) I said that I felt there were ways within the rules that they could have known him regardless and not allowing for that possibility is wrong
4) It is suggested that I am insisting that you knew about Scoobz before hand
5) I say I am not insisting that you knew, just that I didn't like the possibility of it being ignored.

Repeat #4 and 5 over and over and over again.

To bring this back to the beginning again.. I found it interesting when reading your and Mr.W's posts -after- I had already built a suspicion list and referenced it. I don't know if you did or did not, but I think there is some open possibility of it being there.

I do not find anything in that statement factually wrong. You can disagree with my opinion or interpretation of the first 2 day's votes, but I did put alot of effort into trying to find what I -personally- felt was the most suspicious.

Heck I could be wrong, but at least I'm not saying vote briand because I just have a lucky feeling about it.

[Mr. Wednesday]

I am curious then what do you think the reason for Saruman (or whoever) to have killed Lathum that night instead of someone else who was a veteran and hadn't had much heat on them? Some people still had Lathum in distrust lists and it wasn't a full stretch to think that he could end back up in lynch talks.

Haven't thought it through that far, honestly.

Maybe they thought he was getting too close to someone, or maybe they wanted us to think that. He is a vet, although I don't think, offhand, he had really gotten going in this game (but I'll admit, I haven't paid full attention in the first couple of days to the interplay).

[BrianD]

I think i forgot what we are arguing about here.. As far as I know this discussion has gone:

Let me see if I can help.

1) I found the references to the bad guys not knowing scoobz was interesting based on my other suspicions and who was involved.
2) You tell me the rules stated that the bad guys don't know about Scoobz

No. This is actually the part we are arguing about. I didn't say the rules stated that the bad guyd didn't know about Scoobz. I said that the rules stated that Scoobz wasn't in a faction. I said that the bad guys probably didn't know about Scoobz, but that was just my opinion. I do not state that as fact, nor do I believe the rules address it. Two very different things here. The rules seem to confirm that Scoobz wasn't in a faction. I am guessing that the bad guys didn't know about him. Very different issues.

3) I said that I felt there were ways within the rules that they could have known him regardless and not allowing for that possibility is wrong

I am not disputing this. My argument is that you keep claiming that I am disputing this.

4) It is suggested that I am insisting that you knew about Scoobz before hand
5) I say I am not insisting that you knew, just that I didn't like the possibility of it being ignored.

By all means, explore the possibility that I knew about Scoobz before hand. I know that I didn't, but explore it as much as you want. Just please understand that any claims I make about whether the bad guys knew about Scoobz was a guess at the game make-up and not discussed in the rule.

Repeat #4 and 5 over and over and over again.

To bring this back to the beginning again.. I found it interesting when reading your and Mr.W's posts -after- I had already built a suspicion list and referenced it. I don't know if you did or did not, but I think there is some open possibility of it being there.

I do not find anything in that statement factually wrong. You can disagree with my opinion or interpretation of the first 2 day's votes, but I did put alot of effort into trying to find what I -personally- felt was the most suspicious.

Heck I could be wrong, but at least I'm not saying vote briand because I just have a lucky feeling about it.

It looked to me like you were trying to build suspicion based on things I didn't actually say. If you want to look at my voting history or anything else and find me suspicious, fine. Just please understand that I am going to defend myself if you attribute something to me that I didn't really say.

[Alan T]

Let me see if I can help.



No. This is actually the part we are arguing about. I didn't say the rules stated that the bad guyd didn't know about Scoobz. I said that the rules stated that Scoobz wasn't in a faction. I said that the bad guys probably didn't know about Scoobz, but that was just my opinion. I do not state that as fact, nor do I believe the rules address it. Two very different things here. The rules seem to confirm that Scoobz wasn't in a faction. I am guessing that the bad guys didn't know about him. Very different issues.



I guess this is the point I have the misunderstanding then. I assumed because I was stating that I found it interesting your posts about whether the bad guys knew him or not. You actually were arguing a different point entirely then since I wasn't necessarily talking about factions or such as much.

So either you misinterpreted what I was getting at, or I misinterpreted your reply, but I was honestly confused why you kept arguing things that I wasn't even saying.

[Mr. Wednesday]

This was the day 2 votes you asked for.

Well...

* Mine, Izulde's, and DodgerChick's are the last three votes on CR, guaranteeing that there will be a lynch (my vote that opened up the gap looked suspicious when we didn't know that Lathum was a good guy, but in that specific context it's now meaningless). Both Izulde and I have stated, openly, that we think it's better for the villagers to attempt a lynch. On the one hand, it's good for the bad guys to get a lynch, any lynch, on the other hand, the late votes might draw unwanted attention. I wouldn't say it's unreasonable to vote for us on this basis, although it's certainly not conclusive... the bad guys might just have gotten lucky that we did the dirty work for them.

* Schmidty, Blade, Thomkal, Gram, Spleen, and LSG cast "intermediate" votes on CR (between three and nine). This is a good area to bury a vote. Blade subsequently flipped to Lathum, which is basically a nonsensical move for a bad guy (unless it's an attempt to set a "latent" vote on a bad guy in an unknown faction).

* Myself, Swaggs, ntndeacon, and Sublime cast "intermediate" votes on Lathum. I subsequently flipped to CR, as discussed above.

The remaining votes are...
* Alan voted early for CR (second after now-dead saldana)
* st.cronin and Tyrith voted early for Lathum, with Tyrith flipping later to Swaggs (?)
* BrianD flipped relatively late from Spleen to Lathum.
* DaddyTorgo voted late for Lathum

I don't think I'm missing anything, besides a couple of early singleton votes.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Oops, forgot that st.cronin was dead. :o

[Alan T]

Well...

* Mine, Izulde's, and DodgerChick's are the last three votes on CR, guaranteeing that there will be a lynch (my vote that opened up the gap looked suspicious when we didn't know that Lathum was a good guy, but in that specific context it's now meaningless). Both Izulde and I have stated, openly, that we think it's better for the villagers to attempt a lynch. On the one hand, it's good for the bad guys to get a lynch, any lynch, on the other hand, the late votes might draw unwanted attention. I wouldn't say it's unreasonable to vote for us on this basis, although it's certainly not conclusive... the bad guys might just have gotten lucky that we did the dirty work for them.

* Schmidty, Blade, Thomkal, Gram, Spleen, and LSG cast "intermediate" votes on CR (between three and nine). This is a good area to bury a vote. Blade subsequently flipped to Lathum, which is basically a nonsensical move for a bad guy (unless it's an attempt to set a "latent" vote on a bad guy in an unknown faction).

* Myself, Swaggs, ntndeacon, and Sublime cast "intermediate" votes on Lathum. I subsequently flipped to CR, as discussed above.

The remaining votes are...
* Alan voted early for CR (second after now-dead saldana)
* st.cronin and Tyrith voted early for Lathum, with Tyrith flipping later to Swaggs (?)
* BrianD flipped relatively late from Spleen to Lathum.
* DaddyTorgo voted late for Lathum

I don't think I'm missing anything, besides a couple of early singleton votes.

Blade moved his vote to me, not Lathum

[Mr. Wednesday]

Right, I think I read the vote from the next line down. I don't think it really changes the analysis any, though.

[Alan T]

Right, I think I read the vote from the next line down. I don't think it really changes the analysis any, though.

No, I'm reading your analysis to see what I think. Just was pointing it out.

[Alan T]

I'm going to get some work done for the next hour or 90 minutes. I have to head out for the night at 5:30pm EST and wont be back until after lynch (if not just before lynch). Most likely I won't be back.

So I'm going to shut up for a while and see if others have much to say before I decide what to do with my vote for today for sure. Hopefully others drive some good discussion on things.

Current votes:

(2) Ntndeacon - Alan (1247), Jonathan Ezarik (1248)
(1) Sublime - Blade (1207)
(1) Izulde - Lonestargirl (1185)
(1) Tyrith - Spleen (1202)
(1) Lonestargirl - Izulde (1237)
(1) Daddy Torgo - Swaggs (1258)
(1) Mr.Wednesday - Dodgerchick (1274)

[BrianD]

I guess this is the point I have the misunderstanding then. I assumed because I was stating that I found it interesting your posts about whether the bad guys knew him or not. You actually were arguing a different point entirely then since I wasn't necessarily talking about factions or such as much.

So either you misinterpreted what I was getting at, or I misinterpreted your reply, but I was honestly confused why you kept arguing things that I wasn't even saying.

Well, that makes us even because to me you were arguing things that I wasn't saying. To be honest, I still think you are misunderstanding what I was saying about the bad guys and Scoobz in the early days as well.

All along I've been thinking the bad guys probably didn't know about Scoobz. I viewed him (like Mr.Wed said) as a sorcerer-type roll. This is a total guess, and it makes sense to also evaluate things assuming I am wrong and the bad guys did know about him. I make no definitive statement either way. The part that made me argue was your belief that I was making a definitive statement.

If you still think the above belief is interesting, then feel free to use it in your analysis. This is what I have been trying to say all along.

[BrianD]

For those that are new to this game: There isn't usually this much bickering between players. There are often misunderstandings and people do jump on each other for them, but they don't usually last so long, and there aren't usually so many.

For Alan: Even with all of our misunderstandings today, I haven't been taking (or meaning) anything personally. I knew you were either doing wolfy things or (more probably) not understanding what I was saying, so all is good.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Compared to some of the games I've been in, this is pretty mild. :)

[Grammaticus]

Two of the people with votes right now are tops on my suspicion list and that is ntndeacon and LSG. We pushed a bit for something from them yesterday and got nothing but static posts.

LSG says she plays a quite game in general. I don’t see that. She usually plays with more aggressiveness. After accusations of UTR, She came out and said she was going to post some analysis and really never did. That whole vibe is really nagging me. I think something is wrong here.

Ntndeacon upon accusations of UTR spoke up and asked if we thought one side could kill and the other could not. Didn’t we have that whole conversation the prior day? I would have expected him to add something to it, but he just asked the basic question. On day one ntndeacon said we needed to consolidate votes and said he though Blade was suspicious and he could vote for him. Then he proceeded to place his vote on Swaggs who did not have any votres. That is neither consolidating as there were plenty of people with votes and it was not on Blade who he had said he was suspicious. I found that an odd play.

I can go with either of these options, for now:

VOTE LoneStarGirl

[BrianD]

Compared to some of the games I've been in, this is pretty mild. :)

Really? This seemed overly rough. I guess I missed some of the good ones. :)

[Mr. Wednesday]

Current votes:

(2) Ntndeacon - Alan (1247), Jonathan Ezarik (1248)
(1) Sublime - Blade (1207)
(1) Izulde - Lonestargirl (1185)
(1) Tyrith - Spleen (1202)
(1) Lonestargirl - Izulde (1237)
(1) Daddy Torgo - Swaggs (1258)
(1) Mr.Wednesday - Dodgerchick (1274)

Hmm... don't everyone start a runoff at once. :p

ntndeacon and Sublime fit in the buried-on-Lathum contingent. LSG fits the buried-on-CR contingent. Izulde and I are in the late-move-to-get-a-lynch contingent. Tyrith had an early vote followed by a strange move, DaddyTorgo had a late semi-buried vote on Lathum.

And at this point, we could probably pick up an unlisted candidate if we wanted.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Really? This seemed overly rough. I guess I missed some of the good ones. :)
Oh, there were some epic blow-ups. The figures that I recall being involved are Blade, RealDeal, and Alan.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Dola, actually, with Gramm voting for LSG, we now have two candidates with two votes...

[BrianD]

I had thought about voting for NTN, but then I fear Alan will point at me again for buddying up to him. I'm going to vote Izulde today. He put some pressure on people earlier for playing out of character (that I disagreed with), and he is voting for LSG who Blade seems to think might be important. I think I'll be around later tonight if things change.

Vote Izulde

[Schmidty]

Really? This seemed overly rough. I guess I missed some of the good ones. :)

You haven't played with me much, have you.... :)

[ntndeacon]

I would hate for facts to get in the way of a good story and all, but I already spent about an hour looking through posts to find which people I felt fit a certain profile. Right now the ones that stood out to me most were you, Mr.Wednesday and Ntndeacon.

Below are the posts from you on the subject, I did not include the interplay Mr.Wednesday had with you going back and forth, but to me you two sure did seem to easily conclude it was fact that bad guys didn't know Scoobz was on their team. It seemed awfully convienant for you two that would be the case considering your actions that day.

I hate to even mention this as you have already linked me to Brian. But I read Scoobz death the same way. i.e. that he was a Dark independent player. We will have a better idea on that after the next bad guy dies, I would imagine. But that is not an inconsistent reading.

[BrianD]

You haven't played with me much, have you.... :)

No, not that I recall...and I have a feeling that I would remember. :)

[Schmidty]

I, again, have absolutely no idea who to vote for today. AlanT scares me the most, since he can lead certain people to come to whatever conclusion he comes to. On the other hand, if he's not a wolf, we'd be losing a valuabe player if he were to be lynched. I guess for now, I'll listen to what he says, and vote:

Vote ntndeacon

[Tyrith]

You know, right now I could probably be convinced to lynch anyone except spleen or blade. But, unfortunately we can only kill one, and I think in the next two hours or so this seven candidate mess needs to become a two candidate mess. I don't want it to be LSG and ntn because they seem to be being grouped together in some people's conversations in the manner blade talked about izulde and sublime and how brian and mr.w are stuck together.

That said...I don't know. Brian and Mr.W have their advantages as lynch targets because they have been bickering with Alan, who is once again one of the big drivers of the conversation. We need to know about him sometime soon before he drives us over the cliff. I'd rather kill Brian because there seems to have been more suspicion on him lately, but Mr.W has a vote on him already. I'm somewhat ambivalent. I'd rather try to make a race than divide stuff more.

VOTE MR. W

[Tyrith]

Hrm, now Brian votes for Izulde. In terms of pure suspicion Izulde is probably on the top of my list now because of his grasping for straws against LSG. Sigh, damnit. I really want a good race more than anything else.

[Alan T]

Looks like right now its:

(3) Ntndeacon - Alan (1247), Jonathan Ezarik (1248), Schmidty (1340)
(2) Lonestargirl - Izulde (1237), Grammaticus (1331)
(2) Izulde - Lonestargirl (1185), BrianD (1336)
(2) Mr.Wednesday - Dodgerchick (1274), Tyrith (1341)
(1) Sublime - Blade (1207)
(1) Tyrith - Spleen (1202)
(1) Daddy Torgo - Swaggs (1258)

I have 15-20 min till I have to leave until post-lynch so won't be able to change my vote at that point.

I won't be moving my vote to Lonestargirl or Izulde today. I could move my vote to Mr.W before I leave, but its doubtful. Unless something changes in the next 15-20 min, I likely will leave my vote on ntndeacon for the night.

[ntndeacon]

I, again, have absolutely no idea who to vote for today. AlanT scares me the most, since he can lead certain people to come to whatever conclusion he comes to. On the other hand, if he's not a wolf, we'd be losing a valuabe player if he were to be lynched. I guess for now, I'll listen to what he says, and vote:

Vote ntndeacon

I agree about Alan. Of course when and if he becomes a wolf he will probably do the same thing...leading discussion Imean. (Obviously idon't agree withyour vote. ANd iwill be back in about 2 hours to say more )

[Tyrith]

For the record we need nine votes to lynch today.

[Alan T]

dola, the reason I won't be voting for Lonestargirl or Izulde is that I don't necessarily like the substance of the distrust between the two. It felt to me that it was a hunch vote based off of one's perception of voting styles, which the other reacted with the general "If you are voting for me then you must be a wolf" type mentality. The accusations back only increase the initial suspicion until you get to the point where both "feel" the other is a wolf but can't put any real finger on proof and make not fully convincing arguements.

It just feels like one of those types of arguements that end up with a villager vs villager matchup where one is lynched, shown to be good and everyone chases down the other to be lynched and find them also ending up to be good.

At this point in the game I really don't think we want to take the chance on spinning wheels that this is true.

I could be wrong about that, but that is the feeling I am getting from Izulde and Lonestargirl and their play so I don't really have much interest in seeing that be the matchup.

[Blade6119]

Id prefer sublime, but izulde is my #2

UNVOTE SUBLIME 2

VOTE IZULDE

[Tyrith]

We're off to the races!

UNVOTE MR. W
VOTE IZULDE

[Grammaticus]

What is the case against Izulde? I have him down as being quite and noting that is his normal game style? I don't recall the game I played with him but it was at least one.

[Alan T]

Well I'm out. Good luck villagers, I hope you don't shoot our side in the foot tonight. Back after lynch.

[Blade6119]

Both Alan and tyrith have openly stated they dont want it to be LSG or NTN lynched today...thats very interesting to me...

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Where did you see that? Especially since Alan voted for ntndeacon?

[Lorena]

Both Alan and tyrith have openly stated they dont want it to be LSG or NTN lynched today...thats very interesting to me...

Yeah, I saw that too and wondered, why is his vote on ntndeacon then? Oh well, probably nothing.

[Lorena]

Yeah, I saw that too and wondered, why is his vote on ntndeacon then? Oh well, probably nothing.

Oh, nevermind, I"m getting ntndeacon confused with Izulde... my bad

[Blade6119]

I won't be moving my vote to Lonestargirl or Izulde today.

I don't want it to be LSG and ntn

My bad, thought they said the same thing...the fact they both trust LSG is still interesting.

[Lorena]

Oh it was tyrith that said that.

So much stuff being throw around I'm getting confused on who said what.

[Tyrith]

Both Alan and tyrith have openly stated they dont want it to be LSG or NTN lynched today...thats very interesting to me...

No, I believe I was trying to get at the fact I don't want LSG and ntn to be racing each other because they tend to be the targets of the same people. I would prefer we race people out of different pairings.

[Lorena]

/ooc

BTW Tyrith, I noticed you live in Austin... are you a student?

[Tyrith]

I don't trust LSG...I don't trust ANYONE in this game. The person who I have least suspicion of being a bad guy is currently _voting for me_. But she's not my number one target today because I really haven't gotten any specific alarms from her yet.

[Tyrith]

/ooc

BTW Tyrith, I noticed you live in Austin... are you a student?

Mhm, I'm going to UT-Austin right now. I should be working on a paper I have due tomorrow but I've been procrastinating all day while I'm playing WW and generally being a bum.

[Grammaticus]

I don't trust LSG...I don't trust ANYONE in this game. The person who I have least suspicion of being a bad guy is currently _voting for me_. But she's not my number one target today because I really haven't gotten any specific alarms from her yet.

Am I missing something? Nobody is voting for you?

[DaddyTorgo]

home and catching up...3.5 pages or so to go !

[Grammaticus]

home and catching up...3.5 pages or so to go !

Hey, it is painful trying to catch up. Where have you been, bumming around?

[Mr. Wednesday]

Izulde has somewhat aligned with me. I'm not sure if I should be suspicious of that (in the sense that it might imply a bad guy trying to buddy up with me) or if that should make me want to back off of him (in the sense that the same logic that points to a lynch vote for Izulde also points to a lynch vote for me).

So for right now, I'm going to punt and vote for ntndeacon. I think I'll be back to check on developments before the deadline, but I'm not sure.

VOTE ntndeacon

[DaddyTorgo]

3 pages to go

WHAT!?!? we lost 3!!!! last night!!! I have NEVER seen that happen before. Beautiful writeup Anxiety, but that was a big hit that we took there. Still processing my thoughts.

[Blade6119]

Am I missing something? Nobody is voting for you?

spleen is i think

[Grammaticus]

spleen is i think


Does anybody have a vote spread? I appear to be missing at least the Tyrith vote?

[Blade6119]

Does anybody have a vote spread? I appear to be missing at least the Tyrith vote?

This was alans last post, and the two votes after it:

Looks like right now its:

(3) Ntndeacon - Alan (1247), Jonathan Ezarik (1248), Schmidty (1340)
(2) Lonestargirl - Izulde (1237), Grammaticus (1331)
(2) Izulde - Lonestargirl (1185), BrianD (1336)
(2) Mr.Wednesday - Dodgerchick (1274), Tyrith (1341)
(1) Sublime - Blade (1207)
(1) Tyrith - Spleen (1202)
(1) Daddy Torgo - Swaggs (1258)

Id prefer sublime, but izulde is my #2

UNVOTE SUBLIME 2

VOTE IZULDE

We're off to the races!

UNVOTE MR. W
VOTE IZULDE

[Blade6119]

well, and yours on NTN

[Tyrith]

4 - izulde - lsg (1185), brian (1336), blade (1347), tyrith (1348)
4 - ntn - alan (1247), jonathan (1248), schmidty (1340), mr.w (1364)
2 - lsg - izulde (1237), gram (1331)
1 - daddy - swaggs (1258)
1 - mr.w - dodger (1274)
1 - tyrith - spleen (1202)

NO VOTE: daddy, ntn, sublime, thomkal

[LoneStarGirl]

so we need 9 to lynch, and are missing four, so even if all four vote for ntn or izulde, we wont get a lynch... gram, izulde, swaggs, dodger or spleen need to move theirs

[DaddyTorgo]

home and ready to vote now (i thing).

i've been at work...10:30-6:30 . and then 45 minutes to catch up on the 4 pages.

i find it surprising that Swaggs is claiming that my game is "wolfish" btw...my style of play is consistent between the 3 games. I do have a somewhat erratic work schedule so often my votes are early or late or changed from my phone (like in the last game where i nailed 2 wolves btw!). I tend to throw out a bunch of speculation when I have the chance to read, and at this point in my WW career I still tend to look to the more experienced players to analyze most of it.I'm just a townsman. Nothing exciting here.

As for my vote, I had advocated ntndeacon the other night (if someone wants to go back and find the post be my guest, I don't have the patience to go back and find it).

However the only other game I played with izulde he acted this exact same way when he was a wolf, throwing out speculation and accusation without any substance, trying to stir things up.

At this point I am going to assume that ntndeacon will vote for izulde in an attempt to save his own neck, so i am going to put my vote onto ntndeacon in order to maintain that likely tie.

I think if you asked me to choose between the two I would likely chose ntndeacon anyways. And I want to preemptively point out to those who will accuse me of bandwagoning that I was the person who originally brought ntndeacon up as a candidate the other night, and i have JUST gotten in the door from work.

I will be around from now till lynch with the exception of a run out for dinner & coffee

VOTE NTNDEACON

[DaddyTorgo]

so we need 9 to lynch, and are missing four, so even if all four vote for ntn or izulde, we wont get a lynch... gram, izulde, swaggs, dodger or spleen need to move theirs

and ntn obviously won't vote for himself, so we'll need what...2 to move (can't do math, my head hurts)

[Tyrith]

I would just like to note that in a majority system there's no such thing as a true self defense vote. If there are enough votes on you for you to be the lynch then some of them will have to move because there's no way to tie a majority. Of course, you could cast a vote to keep the race close, but it's not quite the same thing.

[Tyrith]

There are 5 on ntn now. If sublime and thomkal vote for him, we indeed need two people to move.

[Grammaticus]

Between ntndeacon and Izulde, I have to go with ntndeacon.

UNVOTE LoneStarGirl

VOTE Ntndeacon

[spleen1015]

I still want to vote for Tyrith today, but it looks like my vote will be needed for a lynch.

I have ntn with 5 and Izulde with 4 right at this moment. While I do suspect both of them, I still want Tyrith lynched today. Bah!

I am making this vote this way because this sort iof tactic worked for me in the Football Tryouts game beautifully. Although the situations aren't completely identical, let's see what happens with it.

UNVOTE Tyrith
VOTE Izulde

[spleen1015]

Between ntndeacon and Izulde, I have to go with ntndeacon.

UNVOTE LoneStarGirl

VOTE Ntndeacon

Ah, boo! :)

This vote beat mine in.

NTN 6
Izulde 5

I am out until 11:30 at the earliest, so I hope the next 2.5 hours goes well for the good guys. We need to lynch a baddie today.

[Swaggs]

I'm willing to go over to Izulde. I generally trust the people voting for him more than those voting for ntn right now. I don't want us to not have a lynch today.

Unvote Daddy Torgo

Vote Izulde

[Izulde]

I guess it looks like there'll be nobody serving me drinks down at the tavern in any case, eh?

[Swaggs]

Izulde, are you a simple villager on the side of light?

[DaddyTorgo]

I'm willing to go over to Izulde. I generally trust the people voting for him more than those voting for ntn right now. I don't want us to not have a lynch today.

Unvote Daddy Torgo

Vote Izulde

care to elaborate on why the trust more for the people voting for izulde?
the motives for the votes seem about identical...are you talking about actually trusting those voters more because of things in this game?

[Izulde]

I'm staying with my vote, because I've become more and more certain that LSG's a wolf, whereas ntdeacon I'm not sure about and if I did make the vote switch, it'd look like I was just trying to save my hide in any case.

[Izulde]

Izulde, are you a simple villager on the side of light?

Yes, a simple hobbit who likes to leave his warren about once every month or so and go to the tavern for a nice drink.

[Tyrith]

I'm staying with my vote, because I've become more and more certain that LSG's a wolf, whereas ntdeacon I'm not sure about and if I did make the vote switch, it'd look like I was just trying to save my hide in any case.

If you switch you'll probably make it more likely that someone will switch onto him later. I know ntn isn't going to give you the same mercy.

[Izulde]

If you switch you'll probably make it more likely that someone will switch onto him later. I know ntn isn't going to give you the same mercy.

This is true, but mercy is the way of the Light.

[Blade6119]

If you switch you'll probably make it more likely that someone will switch onto him later. I know ntn isn't going to give you the same mercy.

He will swap, dont worry...izulde is just trying to say that, but if it comes down to his vote being needed or he dies, he will swap. Hes just trying to play all night right now, but its a falsity that will exposed in time. I think he believe, most likely with reason, that his vote being out of the equation makes it look closer then it is. That way, he can maybe draw an extra vote or two his way before he swaps.

[Swaggs]

Yes, a simple hobbit who likes to leave his warren about once every month or so and go to the tavern for a nice drink.

Is your name similar to that of Chief Rum's character?

[LoneStarGirl]

i will switch off off izulde to ntn if it helps the lynch. I really dont have a grasp on ntn at all, so i would rather him die and we learn something, then nothing happen tonight.

[Blade6119]

Dola, spleen..remember the day 3 of the football game? izulde reminds me of swaggs right now, in a different situation sure, but similar actions

[DaddyTorgo]

FWIW, the other game i played with izulde when he was on the block and later revealed to be a wolf he was much more vehament in his own defense. but he could still be guilty and just be playing it a different way.

ntndeacon seems almost like it's more of just "clearing out the non-participant" type vote....everyone else has participated to varying degrees that are more than he has though.

[Thomkal]

well I just don't have a strong feeling of suspicion towards anyone right now. Of Izulde and NTN, NTN hasn't been participating as much, so we know the least about him.

vote ntndeacon

[Blade6119]

The people on NTN read almost straight off my suspicious list, with the exception of sublime who hasnt voted and Izulde, who we all know will swap to save his own life.

That is current to this post, fyi

[Izulde]

Is your name similar to that of Chief Rum's character?

I'm not quite sure what relevance this has to anything, but rum does sound good right about now. Do you think you could get me some? We are working to banish the Dark after all, and a dry throat does ill to that end.

[Blade6119]

So when NTN comes up good, i want all of you to finally stop taking the easy road and blindly following Alan.

[DaddyTorgo]

The people on NTN read almost straight off my suspicious list, with the exception of sublime who hasnt voted and Izulde, who we all know will swap to save his own life.

That is current to this post, fyi

i don't think are many that are above suspiscion at this point FWIW. Certainly not all of those on izulde are.

i reject the wholehearted condemnation of everyone on ntn on behalf of the side of light blade, and i don't know what it hopes to accomplish beyond chumming the waters

[Blade6119]

I should say, Thomkal is my new #1 after today...he will be my vote tomorrow if i make it, and i really hope at least some of you follow me. Im pretty darn sure NTN will come up good with whos voted for him, and i hope you all remember this post when he does

[DaddyTorgo]

So when NTN comes up good, i want all of you to finally stop taking the easy road and blindly following Alan.

you'd rather we follow you?

[Blade6119]

i don't think are many that are above suspiscion at this point FWIW. Certainly not all of those on izulde are.

i reject the wholehearted condemnation of everyone on ntn on behalf of the side of light blade, and i don't know what it hopes to accomplish beyond chumming the waters

I severely hope that tomorrow the truly good villagers, whoever they are, start to seriously reconsider who their following in these votes. If today ends like i expect, it will be 3 days in a row that people like alan have led you astray. We can no longer afford such blemishes

[DaddyTorgo]

grrrr...after reading who i have voted with, i understand your point blade. I am not in the sunniest of company

[Blade6119]

you'd rather we follow you?

Most certainly, but others have earned my trust enough where id glady have them followed. Ironically, those players seem to keep getting killed off(lathum, chief, sndvls) and i dont expect that to change

[Tyrith]

blade, how much suspicion do you have for alan right now?

[DaddyTorgo]

and izulde's recent posts are reminiscent of his posts in the other game i played with him where he was wolf, a resignation of his fate almost and a turn towards more "characterey" posts and less defense of himself.

[Swaggs]

I should say, Thomkal is my new #1 after today...he will be my vote tomorrow if i make it, and i really hope at least some of you follow me. Im pretty darn sure NTN will come up good with whos voted for him, and i hope you all remember this post when he does

Blade, who do you suspect more between Izulde and Thomkal?

[Swaggs]

I'm not quite sure what relevance this has to anything, but rum does sound good right about now. Do you think you could get me some? We are working to banish the Dark after all, and a dry throat does ill to that end.

Chief Rum's ingame name?

[Tyrith]

So if we assume izulde and ntn will eventually trade votes it is currently ntn 8, izulde 7. Sublime could vote for NTN to seal a lynch that way, although that's really not how I want it to go :)

[Grammaticus]

Most certainly, but others have earned my trust enough where id glady have them followed. Ironically, those players seem to keep getting killed off(lathum, chief, sndvls) and i dont expect that to change

What did Blade, CR and SnDvls do to earn your trust?

[Izulde]

Chief Rum's ingame name?

I understood that part, but again, I don't see the relevance. I am hungry, though. Can you get me a sandwich?

[Grammaticus]

What did Blade, CR and SnDvls do to earn your trust?

That should read:

Blade, what did Lathum, CR and SnDvls do to earn your trust?

[LoneStarGirl]

Blade why do you feel alant is on the dark side? I have a feeling he is a good guy... just an argumentative one.

[DaddyTorgo]

So if we assume izulde and ntn will eventually trade votes it is currently ntn 8, izulde 7. Sublime could vote for NTN to seal a lynch that way, although that's really not how I want it to go :)

well i am being swayed by my association with the less-than-savory characters who have voted for ntn

although as i said in my inital post i see very little to differentiate between the two, izulde's recent posts are raising hairs on the back of my neck (human hairs thank you very much)...but a switch at this point might serve to cast an unfavorable light on myself, no?

[Blade6119]

Blade, who do you suspect more between Izulde and Thomkal?

Thomkal

[Tyrith]

well i am being swayed by my association with the less-than-savory characters who have voted for ntn

although as i said in my inital post i see very little to differentiate between the two, izulde's recent posts are raising hairs on the back of my neck (human hairs thank you very much)...but a switch at this point might serve to cast an unfavorable light on myself, no?

Not really. We still have two hours to lynch, so it's not like you're screwing around with anything. You weren't here most of the day, so it's only fair that you get time to consider things.

[Swaggs]

Does anyone have an in-game name that is similar to Chief Rum's?

[LoneStarGirl]

I really wish some of the guys off of ntn would switch to izulde...

[Blade6119]

Blade why do you feel alant is on the dark side? I have a feeling he is a good guy... just an argumentative one.

He is more by actions...his votes have harmed the village, and maybe by poor judgement or honest error, he is leading others with him. Most of my suspects are voting with him, such as thomkal, and i just dont see much he is doing that really helps the village. He put out ideas, sure, but where have those led us so far? Down all the wrong roads...and today he led us down the NTN road, which i feel will likely end in another wasted day

[Grammaticus]

Does anyone have an in-game name that is similar to Chief Rum's?

Here is the post from the roster page on CR

25. Chief Rum - Lynched Day Two. Nob the Hobbit Server on the side of Light and Townsfolk

Swaggs, why do you find CR's name of importance?

[DaddyTorgo]

UNVOTE NTNDEACON

VOTE IZULDE

Izulde's play at this point is reminding me of when he was wolf in the last game I played with him and he was on the block. Perhaps I am wrong, or perhaps he is indeed an agent of Darkness. In any regard I feel better about this vote now, as Izulde's "defense" of himself has not done anything to ease my suspiscion and I can't forgive myself for lynching yet another fellow villager who has failed to show up to defend himself.

Izulde you really should learn to defend yourself with more conviction...innocent or guilty. Your words here, or more precisely lack-thereof, have condemned you in my eyes.

[DaddyTorgo]

ntndeacon appears!

[Izulde]

I'm sorry you feel that way, DT.

I have to leave in about 15 minutes and no, I'm not going to be switching off my vote, because I don't have a feel either way about NTN.

[Blade6119]

That should read:

Blade, what did Lathum, CR and SnDvls do to earn your trust?

I stated on day 2 my reasons for the first 2. Lathum was bad in the football game, and played dramatically differnent. He was very passive agressive and wanted to avoid the spotlight. Here, he played his villager style. Argumentative, volatile, and in the end good.

Chief was much like NTN today...i saw who was voting for him, and connected the dots.

Sndvls made some comments that to me seemed very sage in their wisdom. When hes bad, he likes to become more aggressive. And god forbid you vote him, he screams bloody murder. This game he took the quiet approach, making timely and wise comments when needed and shutting his mouth when he saw it appropriate.

Lathum and Sndvls are off past play styles, chief was because of who it was taking him down.

[ntndeacon]

4 - izulde - lsg (1185), brian (1336), blade (1347), tyrith (1348)
4 - ntn - alan (1247), jonathan (1248), schmidty (1340), mr.w (1364)
2 - lsg - izulde (1237), gram (1331)
1 - daddy - swaggs (1258)
1 - mr.w - dodger (1274)
1 - tyrith - spleen (1202)

NO VOTE: daddy, ntn, sublime, thomkal

I don't know what the vote is now as I am not that far yet.
Vote Izulde

[Blade6119]

I'm sorry you feel that way, DT.

I have to leave in about 15 minutes and no, I'm not going to be switching off my vote, because I don't have a feel either way about NTN.

This is either becuase he knows he has friends coming like sublime, or they are both bad. I just dont see a way as a villager he would not swap to save his own life. It doesnt make sense to me, im sorry

[Izulde]

And before somebody says, "But you voted for lynches before!", yeah, I did, because we had the numbers where a lynch was more advantageous than not.

But we're running short of Light people now, which means I don't want to lynch unless I'm as close to darned certain as I can be without seeing the flashing neon red sign over their heads.

[Izulde]

This is either becuase he knows he has friends coming like sublime, or they are both bad. I just dont see a way as a villager he would not swap to save his own life. It doesnt make sense to me, im sorry

Because I'm of the Light and I'm playing that role? You'll notice I did it early in the game, but then backed off it when nobody seemed to be paying attention to it.

[Izulde]

I'm even so Light, I'd let a homeless man who has nothing to eat and has to beg for everything live in my warren.

[Blade6119]

Blade, who do you suspect more between Izulde and Thomkal?

And i think regardless of what goes down today, i am close to certain i need to take him down tomorrow. I dont have some dead set fact, and wouldnt mind a sublime or whoever lynch, but i have made up my mind. Thomkal is my first im certain pick all game.

[Blade6119]

Because I'm of the Light and I'm playing that role? You'll notice I did it early in the game, but then backed off it when nobody seemed to be paying attention to it.

And im freaking crazy, really, but my role's crazyness doesnt have restrictions about who i can and cant vote for or how many times i must do something.

[DaddyTorgo]

And i think regardless of what goes down today, i am close to certain i need to take him down tomorrow. I dont have some dead set fact, and wouldnt mind a sublime or whoever lynch, but i have made up my mind. Thomkal is my first im certain pick all game.

careful blade

[Tyrith]

And i think regardless of what goes down today, i am close to certain i need to take him down tomorrow. I dont have some dead set fact, and wouldnt mind a sublime or whoever lynch, but i have made up my mind. Thomkal is my first im certain pick all game.

Why are you so certain?

[Blade6119]

careful blade

Did i strike a nerve? Hes caught my eye more then anyone has this game, i cant lie about that fact. Id lynch him right now if i could instead of NTN or izulde. My fortunes tomorrow are tied to my 3rd best suspect. Im simply stating my opinion, id rather have thomkal or sublime.

[Izulde]

And im freaking crazy, really, but my role's crazyness doesnt have restrictions about who i can and cant vote for or how many times i must do something.

Well, the way you've constructed it, I'm looking either like an idiot (if I don't switch) or self-serving (if I do switch). So yeah, given the ogre's choice, I'll take the noble way.

[DaddyTorgo]

Did i strike a nerve? Hes caught my eye more then anyone has this game, i cant lie about that fact. Id lynch him right now if i could instead of NTN or izulde. My fortunes tomorrow are tied to my 3rd best suspect. Im simply stating my opinion, id rather have thomkal or sublime.


a nerve? you didn't strike a nerve, but you just put a almighty big target on your back for the Dark.

[Blade6119]

Why are you so certain?
Just a gut wrenching feeling. His vote for ntn, the mannor it was placed and its timing, just set off all kinds of alarms. You will see he was my 2b suspect this morning, and was strongly tied to schmidty in my mind. Both of their actions today make me think badly of both. And i would much rather lynch thomkal then schmidty who hinted at some grand role(and i believe the bodyguard is dead, as in the dead towns guardsman) so i see no reason he didnt die last night.

[Blade6119]

a nerve? you didn't strike a nerve, but you just put a almighty big target on your back for the Dark.
How so?

[ntndeacon]

FWIW, the other game i played with izulde when he was on the block and later revealed to be a wolf he was much more vehament in his own defense. but he could still be guilty and just be playing it a different way.

ntndeacon seems almost like it's more of just "clearing out the non-participant" type vote....everyone else has participated to varying degrees that are more than he has though.

That is exactly what it seems to me as well, DaddyTorgo. And a clearing out of the nonparticipant vote is rather random at day 3. Especially when the non participant has been quiet in most of the games he has played. (I will grant I have been more quiet this game but idoubt it is by as much as people say.)

[DaddyTorgo]

How so?

laying things out so openly, no? remember my first game i asked why people didn't more often, and you explained that it made you a target? i am beginning to understand that more is all.

[Izulde]

DT, don't you think the homeless in the war that threatens Middle Earth should have places to go? I do.

[ntndeacon]

ntndeacon appears!

my practice took a bit longer than I thought. :)

[Blade6119]

Well, the way you've constructed it, I'm looking either like an idiot (if I don't switch) or self-serving (if I do switch). So yeah, given the ogre's choice, I'll take the noble way.

I certainly respect your nobility, and if good hearted im sorry if you go down. You arent my top suspect, but your up there. I will say this, as Valen Gutters is my witness, i will go to death fighting for the village...in whatever capactity i think will best serve the group. I wont play it nice or back off becuase someone is acting upset. I have told the group my honest thoughts every step of the way, told everyone my role on day one if the paid VERY close attention(no one has been close, so i guess no one was). I can do no more then that, though if i was up for a lynch i would know even it was 1% the other guy was bad, that 1% would be more then i knew i was bad(0%) and i would take the chance.

[Swaggs]

Daddy, are you of the side of light?

[Tyrith]

Just a gut wrenching feeling. His vote for ntn, the mannor it was placed and its timing, just set off all kinds of alarms. You will see he was my 2b suspect this morning, and was strongly tied to schmidty in my mind. Both of their actions today make me think badly of both. And i would much rather lynch thomkal then schmidty who hinted at some grand role(and i believe the bodyguard is dead, as in the dead towns guardsman) so i see no reason he didnt die last night.

The guard died last night, so he would have been alive to protect, to the wolves' knowledge at least.

[Blade6119]

laying things out so openly, no? remember my first game i asked why people didn't more often, and you explained that it made you a target? i am beginning to understand that more is all.

Oh, i full heartedly agree...the one uniqueness to my situation, as im sure you have clearly observed, is most players think im crazy, not even just this game with my role, and dont like me all too much. That gives me the leverage of being a likely lynch victim in most games, and therefore not as much of a target for the wolves. Though, knock on wood, saying it likely ended the nice effect it was having.

At this point in the game though, i dont see myself and alan living long unless were bad. So i figure now that most of the vocal vets are dead, i already have a target on my back and might as well go down swinging

[Blade6119]

The guard died last night, so he would have been alive to protect, to the wolves' knowledge at least.

Before he died i would have said the herbalist was the BG, so i viewed it as the BG has been dead since night 1. Im working under the assumption, with the kills they have been making, they have worried much about the BG either.

[Sublime 2]

Vote Izulde


Sorry guys, I know a vote and run is generally looked down upon, but I havne't been around much for the day because of exams, and right now I'm getting ready for my drive back to NH. I won't be home till 1030-11ish.

[DaddyTorgo]

I am. And I invite our seer to examine that for themself and assure you of that. I stand by my voting record as perhaps not distinguished in this game, but certainly nothing aberrant.

I understand what you're saying Blade. That makes sense.

[ntndeacon]

there is a name I have not heard mentioned as a suspect. I wonder about Johnathan. He is one of the names that no one has questioned (aloud) I know it sounds a bit like retribution (He was the second vote on me today) I have been uneasy with some of his play. If you ask me for specifics I couldn't give it to you. But it has been bothering me. and with me being this close to not being able to contribute, iwanted to wonder aloud about him.

[DaddyTorgo]

Swaggs...where is your vote right now? I am beginning to believe I may have been led astray (comments made by you and Izulde)

[Swaggs]

Ntn or Izulde, do you have anything to contribute to the cause of light? I'm not sensing much urgency from either of you, with your heads on the line.

[Swaggs]

Swaggs...where is your vote right now? I am beginning to believe I may have been led astray (comments made by you and Izulde)

My vote is on Izulde.

[Blade6119]

Would any group of people follow me on a late swap to thomkal? Im being honest here

[DaddyTorgo]

Ntn or Izulde, do you have anything to contribute to the cause of light? I'm not sensing much urgency from either of you, with your heads on the line.


Izulde's comments have made it through my thick skull to give me pause. I must ask Swaggs...where your vote is right now? I do not recall.

[DaddyTorgo]

dola

we were typing at the same time

[ntndeacon]

Blade Iwould

[Grammaticus]

Swaggs...where is your vote right now? I am beginning to believe I may have been led astray (comments made by you and Izulde)

I think his vote is on Izulde

[Tyrith]

Blade, I think it'd be very risky. We have to get nine votes, we have a lot of people gone, and I'm not as convinced on Thomkal as you are. We could lose a lot.

[Blade6119]

Blade Iwould

We need a min of 4 to make a push id say...if DT and swaggs can agree, 4 could be enough to grab some fringe votes.

[Swaggs]

I'm open to moving.

What is the case on Thomkal?

[Izulde]

Ntn or Izulde, do you have anything to contribute to the cause of light? I'm not sensing much urgency from either of you, with your heads on the line.

If you only take a look at things and think a bit, you'll notice my contributions.

[Blade6119]

Blade, I think it'd be very risky. We have to get nine votes, we have a lot of people gone, and I'm not as convinced on Thomkal as you are. We could lose a lot.

Are you convinced about Izulde? Ive been clear hes my #3, so if i have any chance to get my #1 lynched i will take it. Im not at all sure about izulde or NTN, but i feel pretty sure about thomkal. I have to do what i must to see my feelings represented

[DaddyTorgo]

well i certainly feel that izulde has a role...whether for Dark or Light I cannot be certain, but he seems to know...things.

In the spirit of that, moving my vote off him seems like the thing to do.

Swaggs??

[Tyrith]

Are you convinced about Izulde? Ive been clear hes my #3, so if i have any chance to get my #1 lynched i will take it. Im not at all sure about izulde or NTN, but i feel pretty sure about thomkal. I have to do what i must to see my feelings represented

The problem is that while he might not be your highest candidate we have to move over half the votes in the game in an hour. I think we already have something like five people gone...that means, if we have 12 or so people left, we can only stand one or two dissenters. Do we have that many votes? If we don't, don't screw with a lynch.

[Blade6119]

I'm open to moving.

What is the case on Thomkal?

His timing of votes, his comments about schmidty and then following him in voting, his UTR status(seemingly the thing getting NTN lynched, so if were going the UTR vote lets go Thomkal). His comments have distrubed me today and yesterday, and his late vote and reason was too much for me to be quiet about.

[DaddyTorgo]

I would change. we have enough people in the thread here right now. make the case blade

[Blade6119]

The problem is that while he might not be your highest candidate we have to move over half the votes in the game in an hour. I think we already have something like five people gone...that means, if we have 12 or so people left, we can only stand one or two dissenters. Do we have that many votes? If we don't, don't screw with a lynch.

Thats why im asking and not doing right now...i will only do this is i have enough support.

[Swaggs]

Let's do it, then. I think Izulde isn't playing a great game, but he might be useful for us down the road.

Unvote Izulde

Vote Thomkal

[Blade6119]

UNVOTE IZULDE

VOTE THOMKAL

[Blade6119]

Tyrith, you said you thought i was good...follow me here, please

[DaddyTorgo]

UNVOTE IZULDE

VOTE THOMKAL

[ntndeacon]

Unvote Izulde
Vote Thomkal

[Swaggs]

I'd like to see Izulde's vote on board here, as well.

[Blade6119]

NTN, Sublime, Gramat...please join us!

[Blade6119]

Izulde, will you join us?

[ntndeacon]

NTN, Sublime, Gramat...please join us!

sorry it took so long. I was called away right then. :)

[Izulde]

All right. Since we're apparently determined to get a lynch and your reasoning for Thomkal seems plausible, I'll make the switch.

UNVOTE LONESTARGIRL

VOTE THOMKAL

[DaddyTorgo]

gramat...tyrith...join us!

[Grammaticus]

UNVOTE Ntndeacon

VOTE THOMKAL

[Tyrith]

If we don't have the votes in the next 45 minutes we HAVE to switch back. _We must get a lynch_. And I don't ever recall explicitly saying I thought you were good blade, because I certainly don't know that much about anyone in this game. But fine.

UNVOTE IZULDE
VOTE THOMKAL

[DaddyTorgo]

i'm going to run out and get dinner and coffee now so i can be back before lynch.

[Blade6119]

Tyrith, Sublime...now is the time to make a swap

THANKS GRAMMAT!

[Grammaticus]

Gotta take the dog out, be back in a little while.

[DaddyTorgo]

i will be back in time to switch if it becomes necessary. or should be barring accidents/whatever

[ntndeacon]

What is the vote count now?

[Tyrith]

If Thomkal is good blade goes to the top of my suspect list, btw.

[Izulde]

Dinner sounds good. I'm off to it myself.

[Tyrith]

7 on Thomkal. 5 on ntn. 4 left on izulde.

[Izulde]

We've 7 votes for Thomkal by my reckoning.

[Blade6119]

If we don't have the votes in the next 45 minutes we HAVE to switch back. _We must get a lynch_. And I don't ever recall explicitly saying I thought you were good blade, because I certainly don't know that much about anyone in this game. But fine.

UNVOTE IZULDE
VOTE THOMKAL

After later on you said you trusted Spleen, i took this post(the first part of it at least) from this morning to mean you thought i was good too:

You know, right now I could probably be convinced to lynch anyone except spleen or blade.

[Blade6119]

Sublime was here, though appears to have left

[Blade6119]

If Thomkal is good blade goes to the top of my suspect list, btw.

I wouldnt be blade if i didnt take chances like this

[Tyrith]

After later on you said you trusted Spleen, i took this post(the first part of it at least) from this morning to mean you thought i was good too:

I didn't want to lynch you today, and any argument against you probably wouldn't have made any sense. Doesn't mean I think you're good -- although you're higher on the list that most people. You're banking those points on this lynch, though.

[Blade6119]

I didn't want to lynch you today, and any argument against you probably wouldn't have made any sense. Doesn't mean I think you're good -- although you're higher on the list that most people. You're banking those points on this lynch, though.

Im banking my life on this lynch, DT pointed that out :)

[ntndeacon]

Im banking my life on this lynch, DT pointed that out :)

You mean that wasn't already up there regardless whether we get the votes or not? ;)

[Tyrith]

Im banking my life on this lynch, DT pointed that out :)

You're gonna be the hero or the goat. Either way, you're probably dead by tomorrow night, but how you die...that's the question.

[Swaggs]

Sublime was here, though appears to have left

Could be worth noting down the road.

[Blade6119]

I have to go in 3 minutes, so i hope you guys either pull the 2 votes in or swap back and pick your lynch target before the lynch. I really hope thomkal dies, but i wont be around to see if im to be cheered or killed

[Tyrith]

This is the danger.......

[Blade6119]

If you cant pull the votes, swap back...just be open to a thomkal lynch tomorrow, as my feelings are resolute on this matter now

[Blade6119]

Though, noting as i leave, Alan said he would be back for the lynch...so we could prob. pull him

[Blade6119]

And heres brian!! Come on B!!!!