Ratings Discussion: Insight from EA?

[Phobia]

Nice post GMSS!!

I think me recording some footage of the 0 and 99 differences of each rating would be a good insight into the game. I think we would see little to no difference in the ratings and how the players react to those ratings.

But sadly I feel it would be a complete waste of my time to do such a video. EA would not look into it and address the situation the way it should, instead we would hear fear back how we are all crazy and the systems in place work perfect.

Yet video after video of punters with block ratings at ZERO will hold off dominate defensive lines such as the LSU D-line. Put 5 punters on the line in front the LSU front 4 in real life and what you think will happen LOL

In game I already know what will happen, the punters will hold their own enough that the offensive game would be only minor affected.

Honestly though, I am not buying Madden or NCAA next year. I am going to just stick with 12 of both and enjoy them the best I can. I can't keep wasting money year after year on a product that still can't get it right. Plus with the bugs that NCAA had this year it is completely unacceptable to charge people 60 bucks for the game.

[Gotmadskillzson]

Yeah what can I say, I have a animation and video game programming background. Therefore when I see half done or not well thought out programming and game design decisions, it irks me.

Sure every animator and programmer knows sometimes stuff don't mesh well together as you thought it would. But then again, that is why you always triple check your work. When you are an animator, you are always taught to make sure you triple check every frame and action key.

Really it isn't that hard to make sure the player's foot actual touches the ball when he punts and kicks FGs. Not hard to make sure a player's foot is actually making contact with the ground when he is running.

Not that hard to have variations of running styles, throwing styles, stances, head tracking either. That stuff can be done in a matter of days, not weeks or months and that is with pure animation software the old school way. With mocap cameras it cuts the time in half.

This game is lacking animations for different situations. All of their animations are for the ultimate perfect player.

They need animation for bad players. Take route running for example. EA only has animation for a player running the route perfectly and for a person slipping in the rain or snow. What they need is an animation for a rookie or just bad route runner period, where as he doesn't run the route perfectly.

Have it where as instead of him making picture perfect sharp cuts, his cuts be more rounded off or he slows down too much before cutting and not exploding through them. Or have him sometimes turn the wrong direction.

So if on an out route, instead of turning out towards the sideline, being his route running is poor, he sometimes runs a slant route or runs a in route. Since route running is basically your knowledge of routes. If you have poor rating in this, you might not know all the route names and get them confused and thus run the wrong one.

Take ball carrier vision. If you are poor in this rating, then damn it you should just run in a straight line as the play is intended to run and never look for a better running lane opportunity. On the flip side, if you are high in this rating, you should always be scanning the field looking for daylight and running to open space.

Tackle animation needs more of a struggle to it. Tackles come too quick and players fall to the ground too quick as well. It wasn't like this in NCAA 11. In NCAA 11 it was more of a struggle with sometimes bigger stronger runners carrying smaller players for a good 2 more yards before they STUMBLE FORWARD.

In NCAA 12, you rarely see players stumble forward when they get tackled. More often then not, after one hit, you go instantly to the ground. Way too many solo tackles in NCAA 12. You don't ever see the 4 or 5 men tackles that they had in NCAA 11.

WR/DB interaction....doesn't exist. It SUPPOSE to have been based off the man coverage rating and route running rating. With if the person is rated low in their rating, they are more prone to getting called for pass interference.

However the way EA mocapped it, it is nothing but a foot race between 2 players going to a spot on the field. There is no hand fighting, no pushing, no nothing. They both just run down the field.

Same thing with OL/DL interaction. Instead of them mocapping 5 OL against 4 DL, they just mocapping 1 vs 1 and they just clone the rest of the line. Which is why there is so much mirroring in the game.

I mean really, how often in REAL LIFE do you see a perfect pocket form ALL the time ? Very rarely in real life do see both outside tackles go back the same distance ALL THE TIME when they are pass blocking.

How often in real life do you see both Defensive Ends take the same path to the QB ALL THE TIME ? What defensive end does an outside rush technique all game long ? Nobody, that's who. They mix it up. Sometimes they rush inside, sometimes they rush outside. Sometimes they fake outside and then quickly go inside and vice versa.

But in EA football games it always a perfect pocket, always an outside rush technique and both ends on offense and defense always be parallel to each other on the field.

When it comes to special teams OL/DL interaction, ratings are completely not used at all. They have it coded in stone that nobody is getting through the line up the middle and for the couple who might make it off the edge, they don't even ATTEMPT to block the kick at all. They run, stop before they get to the kicker and turn around.

It is coded in stone, all snaps are perfect on special teams, all holds are perfect. All kickers always have perfect form and perfect follow through. No kicker ever misses the ball, slips or anything at all.

Makes you wonder why they even give a kicker or punter ratings......

When it comes to catches, it needs way more variation as well. Need to be more sliding catches, more catches in STRIDE and WRs need to attack the ball. And they need to bring back the WR tipping the ball to himself catch animation. The way it is now, it is either a catch or a drop.

What EA needs to do is either mocap 10 different people playing all the positions for it can be some variation in animation or make the variations in animation the old school way before mocapping cameras came out.

Then they need to program each action sequence to a rating. And have it where every 10 numbers makes that animation play out either better or worse, depending on high or low it is.

[LionsFanNJ]

You know everything you said SHOULD be put into the game. The problem is EA doesn't think these things are problems with their game aka "working as intended". Until they actually take the suggestions in regards to gameplay (as it seems they'll listen to other stuff but when it comes to on the field they shut you out) all our complaining will be for naught.

I mean if they don't want to fix simple things like pass trajectory or lineman logic then what ARE they going to fix.

[Gotmadskillzson]

This was a good question somebody asked me, so I thought I would post the answer in this thread as well.

Quote:

Hey gotmadskillzson... why would they even bother with mo-capping? Isn't this 2011? What about real-time physics? Then you don't even need mo-capping because the CPU processor will create the tackle animations and blocking animations based on the programmed ratings, right? So, all they need to do is create the different body types and sizes for the players and then use REAL-TIME PHYSICS, so that 240lb running backs arent juking linebackers out of their shoes like 180lb tailbacks are. What is the aversion to using real-time physics? I am not asking this to stir the pot, but since you have an animation/programming background, I am seriously asking you. I want to know why this is such a problem to implement? Wouldn't it cure most of the issues with lack of animations? If backbreaker can use real-time physics, then there is no reason why EA cannot. Did backbreaker use mo-capping for all 22-players and then use physics? Or did they just create the characters, program a physics formula using their euphoria engine and then let the CPU control all the animations? And if they did all that, that is so awesome, why can't EA do that?

Even with real time physics, the animation still have to be created either using blender, maya or mocapping. You simply just can't type in codes saying, "run over that way when I press the stick in this direction". Doesn't work like that.

Every movement is an animation. Real time physics is just coding to go along with the animation. You can't have real time physics by itself without making the animations.

Animation using blender or maya is done by using a rig. A rig is basically just an exoskeleton of a person or an object. Rig just don't have to be human form, it can be in the shape of anything, even a football or baseball.

So for a player, quite naturally the rig will be the shape of a human bone system. Just like a human skeleton is made up of joints, so is a rig. You can have each joint move independently from each other or you can group them up together for they move at the same time.

Take your arm for example. It is made up of the shoulder joint, elbow joint and wrist joint. All 3 are connected, therefore when you move one area, the rest of your arm follows.

Now by default with rigs, all the joints are independent. It is the job of the animator to pair things accordingly where as it moves just like a human body would.

After you get all of the rig set up properly, that is when you start action sequences. Action sequences is movement. Basically taking it frame by frame and just looping it.

For example:

Walking. Pretty simple animation that all animators learn in the very beginning. To make it simple for people can easily visualize in their head, take an action figure like a GI Joe or puppet. You know how you can take their legs and manually make them look like they are walking ?

Well that is the same thing with animation. For walking you manually move the knee, the foot, arms etc. However you take a frame snapshot of each step. Then you group it together. This grouping is an action sequence.

So when you play it back, it plays back at 30fps or 60fps, depends on which one you choose. But when it does play back, it just looks smooth. However at this point, the person is just walking in place like they are on a tread mill.

The next step would be to give it a path. Several ways to give it a path, either my coordinates on a X and Y azis plane, OR the quicker and easier way, with just a line track.

Line track is exactly what it sounds like, a line. You draw it out and you tell the action sequence to follow that path and now the character will walk following that path you created.

You basically do that with every action sequence you create just to get general movement out of them. Now the reason why video game companies like mocapping, especially for sports games is that it is faster.

Instead of manually making the rigs and manually making the action sequence frame by frame, etc, you don't have to do that with mocapping.

Mocapping, which the full name is Motion Capture, is basically a guy wearing a suit that has tracking sensors on it where all the joints of the human body would be at and you have a camera, that don't pick up the guy himself, it picks up those sensors and feeds it into the computer as a rig.

This greatly speeds up the process since you can just tell the guy, "hey run this way, do this, do that." As the guy does it, the PC automatically records it frame by frame. So therefore all the animator has to do is just break it up into action sequences.

After you get all your action sequences made, then you move to head tracking, which is in itself is an action sequence, then you move to target tracking, chase and evade programming, basically the guts of the AI.

Now the reason why sports companies are slow to adapt real time physics is because to be perfectly honest, it is time consuming IF you want it to look correctly. You simply can't throw it in there. Because if you do, you will end up with animations that look unnatural.

For example:

2 players running towards each other and their arms become interlaced, therefore they constantly run in circles.

OR

You trip a player and he lands on his head with his feet straight up in the air and slowly falls down.

So basically you have to set up a lot of parameters and do a lot of tweaking to make sure the animations play out naturally. Because these are human players after all and not cartoon characters.

You don't want to knock somebody out of bounds and see their body slide for a good 6 yards in a cartoony like manner.

Now as far as the ball always bouncing forward on punts, that is nothing but lazy programming. Because you can put a rig inside of anything, including a football and program it to bounce in different directions.

Same thing with hair. You could put a rig inside of hair and have each joint within the hair strands to move independently of one another if you like.

And finally, the whole debate of which animation should play out and which ones shouldn't. Quite simple, you can program probability ratios or the old school way of a IF NEST loop.

Where as you set up parameters and assign different action sequences to happen within specific parameters. Those parameters can be tied to ratings.

Don't really have to be all that complicated, you can keep it simple.

For example, who wins a tackle situation:

Take the break tackle rating of the runner + his weight + his strength. Take the tackle rating of the defender + his weight + strength

So if a RB was 180 pounds and his break tackle was 90, strength 50
LB was 230 pounds and his tackle rating was 90, strength 70

RB = 320
LB = 390

Therefore in a head on encounter, that LB would always win that tackle battle and drive the RB backwards.

You could do that with every situation. Different ratings of course depending on the 2 positions that is having an encounter.

However you have to make sure you have lose animation action sequence already made as well. One thing I always hated about Madden 12 and NCAA 12 was their lose animations were half done and just didn't look right.

You simply don't want a person just to drop to the ground like he was lifeless because he lost the battle. Nor do we want all the battles to be INSTANT either. It should be a brief struggle and the losing player GRADUALLY goes backwards and falls down in a more realistic manner.

[Malignant]

I always enjoy reading anything from both Phobia (especially his All Pro 2K8 threads regarding the Spread Offense) and Gotmadskillzson.

In regards to this thread, I just wish the gameplay of the NCAA/Madden series was as deep as something like PES6. The amount of animation information and comprehensive info on each rating type (as well as a boatload of other topics) was always fun to discover. I even bought the PES6 guide book recently that tells you how to initiate each and every type of animation (which correlated to whether that particular player could execute it well, or if at all).

I'm still finding animations that I've never seen before in PES6, MLB The Show, NFL 2K5/2K8 and NHL 2K10. I've never been able to say that sentence for any NCAA/Madden game.

[Playmakers]

Quote: Originally Posted by Malignant

I always enjoy reading anything from both Phobia (especially his All Pro 2K8 threads regarding the Spread Offense) and Gotmadskillzson. In regards to this thread, I just wish the gameplay of the NCAA/Madden series was as deep as something like PES6. The amount of animation information and comprehensive info on each rating type (as well as a boatload of other topics) was always fun to discover. I even bought the PES6 guide book recently that tells you how to initiate each and every type of animation (which correlated to whether that particular player could execute it well, or if at all). I'm still finding animations that I've never seen before in PES6, MLB The Show, NFL 2K5/2K8 and NHL 2K10. I've never been able to say that sentence for any NCAA/Madden game.

That's because NCAA and Madden animations are also tied into sliders

the best tackling animations you'll ever witness in Madden and NCAA are tied into the tackle slider itself

The best pass rush animations you'll see are tied in the pass rush slider

The best incomplete passes you'll see are tied into the QBA slider

Now i don't get as detailed about these things as others when explaining it but i can tell you from gameplay ecperience in dealing with sliders and also taking the ratings and applying to them to the sliders you'll see animations you've never seen before

[GameTape]

What people dont realize is the majority of these ratings are meaningless. They are there just to make fans happy and give them something to talk about, but they dont do anything. There are only a few ratings that mean anything, like speed, and juke, and few others...the rest of the ratings are simply eye candy.

Here is a video where a guy puts 5 QB's as O-linemen, and they block just as good as OL would.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rj4ws...eature=related

[GameTape]

Quote: Originally Posted by Playmakers

That's because NCAA and Madden animations are also tied into sliders the best tackling animations you'll ever witness in Madden and NCAA are tied into the tackle slider itself The best pass rush animations you'll see are tied in the pass rush slider The best incomplete passes you'll see are tied into the QBA slider Now i don't get as detailed about these things as others when explaining it but i can tell you from gameplay ecperience in dealing with sliders and also taking the ratings and applying to them to the sliders you'll see animations you've never seen before

Not true, the pass rushing animations work exactly the same no matter how you put the sliders, the only difference is how quickly defenders can disengage.