"Hockey IQ" Video

[bwiggy33]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big Jim

I have a gut feeling this is going to be a really positive upgrade over NHL 12. I felt like in some ways, 12 was a step back from 11. To be honest, though, I've been plying the series since 09, and I think they are fantastically fun video games that I enjoy each year. I think a lot of people get worked up over every little aspect that doesn't mimic real life and have forgotten how to have fun with the game. It's really an uncanny valley situation. As the games look better and better, and play even more realistically, the aspects that fail to mimic real life seem more overbearing. The reality is, hockey games have never been better, and we would do well to appreciate the advances. Or play something else.

Get worked up, yes but that doesn't mean we don't have fun. We state these problems because we want improvements. To me I'm no longer having fun with this game or series because every game is basically the exact same. I'm not going to sit here and state my reasons why because you can probably go in every thread and everyone will state the same problems. There has been no significantly major gameplay innovations that make each game of the series separate from themselves. They got comfortable with the fact that they won sports game of the year in 07 or 08 and didn't want to do anything drastic that would possibly make the game bad. They relied solely on the fact that everyone was having fun with the new controller system. Well the time has passed where the controls are the only reason people buy the game. They need to start making improvements to the actual game on the ice. It seems like they are finally doing it this year, which is why I'm finally hoping to have fun with this game and then I can quit talking about every problem with the game. All I want to see is effort from the developers. No effort means they don't care about the consumer, this year it looks like they finally care again like they did back in 07 and 08.

[Gagnon39]

Um, that first save by quick looked absolutely ridiculous. I've never seen a goalie dive across the crease to his left and make a blocker save high.

[Big Jim]

Quote: Originally Posted by bwiggy33

Get worked up, yes but that doesn't mean we don't have fun. We state these problems because we want improvements. To me I'm no longer having fun with this game or series because every game is basically the exact same. I'm not going to sit here and state my reasons why because you can probably go in every thread and everyone will state the same problems. There has been no significantly major gameplay innovations that make each game of the series separate from themselves. They got comfortable with the fact that they won sports game of the year in 07 or 08 and didn't want to do anything drastic that would possibly make the game bad. They relied solely on the fact that everyone was having fun with the new controller system. Well the time has passed where the controls are the only reason people buy the game. They need to start making improvements to the actual game on the ice. It seems like they are finally doing it this year, which is why I'm finally hoping to have fun with this game and then I can quit talking about every problem with the game. All I want to see is effort from the developers. No effort means they don't care about the consumer, this year it looks like they finally care again like they did back in 07 and 08.

A) Paragraphs are your friend. You might want to avoid the wal of unreadable text.

B) You missed the last comment, apparently. If it is not fun, pay something else.

C) Your expectations are actually unreasonable.

No game company has unlimited resources and ability. At the end of the day, this is a video game, not a professional grade simulation engine. Knowing what you want the AI to do and figuring out how to make it do it realistically are too vastly different things.

I'm super excited for the new Hockey IQ they are trying to implement, while understanding that it is going to probably end up annoying most gamers who will claim they were lied to when, surprise, surprise, it is not nearly deep enough to handle human players. The trick is not just making harder to bring the puck up the ice, but not making it impossible, by balancing the aI in a way that is not predictable.

It's also hard to program the CPU to make human-like errors. It's doubly hard to program the the CPU to make human-like errors without suffering the wrath of internet experts. And let's not forget how many rants are seen here where it is clear that the complainer doesn't even understand anything beyond the most basic concepts of the sport.

Watching the interviews and videos of the NHL devs have made it clear that these guys live and breathe hockey, and work their butts off to create a fun version of the sport. It can always be better. But often, the simulation some folks want would make the game the opposite of fun. It's a video game doing the nth iteration of Pong.

But some amers act like they need an ultimate simulation. If they do, they need to play something else.

[Money99]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big Jim

I have a gut feeling this is going to be a really positive upgrade over NHL 12. I felt like in some ways, 12 was a step back from 11. To be honest, though, I've been plying the series since 09, and I think they are fantastically fun video games that I enjoy each year. I think a lot of people get worked up over every little aspect that doesn't mimic real life and have forgotten how to have fun with the game. It's really an uncanny valley situation. As the games look better and better, and play even more realistically, the aspects that fail to mimic real life seem more overbearing. The reality is, hockey games have never been better, and we would do well to appreciate the advances. Or play something else.

It really depends.
I LOVE MLB2K12. Does it have flaws? Oh yeah. Is it fun? You betcha!
Same with NHL07. It had lots of flaws and resembled 1982 hockey. Was it fun? You know it!

The reasons I've really started to dislike the NHL series is simple; the cheating.
I grew really really tired of watching the CPU do things that I couldn't, or when my own CPU teammates didn't act anything like the CPU team I was facing.
I can have fun playing lots of sports games that aren't 100% realistic as long as they're fair.

So when I see an agitator on my team just stand and watch the CPU play with the puck, while anytime I touch the puck, I get mauled like a baby deer in the woods, then I get mad.
Just like I get really ticked off when I see a 4th line goon snipe corners, thread needles or perform spin-o-ramma's while my Pavel Datsyuk or Steve Stamkos can't hit an open net, or lose the puck when they breath on it.
THAT'S when I stop having fun. And it's been going on with EA's NHL game since NHL08.

[bwiggy33]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big Jim

A) Paragraphs are your friend. You might want to avoid the wal of unreadable text. B) You missed the last comment, apparently. If it is not fun, pay something else. C) Your expectations are actually unreasonable. No game company has unlimited resources and ability. At the end of the day, this is a video game, not a professional grade simulation engine. Knowing what you want the AI to do and figuring out how to make it do it realistically are too vastly different things. I'm super excited for the new Hockey IQ they are trying to implement, while understanding that it is going to probably end up annoying most gamers who will claim they were lied to when, surprise, surprise, it is not nearly deep enough to handle human players. The trick is not just making harder to bring the puck up the ice, but not making it impossible, by balancing the aI in a way that is not predictable. It's also hard to program the CPU to make human-like errors. It's doubly hard to program the the CPU to make human-like errors without suffering the wrath of internet experts. And let's not forget how many rants are seen here where it is clear that the complainer doesn't even understand anything beyond the most basic concepts of the sport. Watching the interviews and videos of the NHL devs have made it clear that these guys live and breathe hockey, and work their butts off to create a fun version of the sport. It can always be better. But often, the simulation some folks want would make the game the opposite of fun. It's a video game doing the nth iteration of Pong. But some amers act like they need an ultimate simulation. If they do, they need to play something else.

A. Thanks for the english lesson. Too bad that if you look at my other posts I often over use paragraphs. In fact I reread my entire posts about 5 times to make sure they are grammatically correct and there are paragraphs when necessary, so don't even go there buddy. BTW you kind of misspelled wall. You spelled it wal.

B. I play 2k8 and 2k10. I've loved the NHL series my entire life and that's why I'm critical and want more out of them. They've been extremely lackluster in their effort the past 3 years.

C. My expectations are in no way unreasonable. I'm not expecting some 100% realistic experience. In fact I've been asking for this smarter AI for an extremely long time. Hockey is incredibly hard to replicate in a video game. I totally understand that. This is probably one of the very few posts you've ever posted. If you actually followed this forum a little more you would see that I'm extremely critical but I completely understand how hard it is to make hockey completely realistic. If I'm unreasonable then so are basically the rest of this on this forum because pretty much every guy on here wants the same things I do, and I don't believe they are unreasonable in any way. In fact what most of us have wanted is being added to this version. Whether or not it will be done well, we will just have to wait and see.

Just because I didn't fully agree with your post doesn't mean you have to come and attack me. I didn't do that to you. I was merely stating I disagreed. You are entitled to your opinion, as I am mine. We all want different things out of the game. I'm happy you enjoy the game as it stands, but there are many parts I have problems with. Most likely the result of me being a die hard hockey fan and I know the game extremely well. Hell I've never heard more people speak about the problems with the game until NHL 12. I actually thought I was one of the only ones who had a problem with aspects of this game for the past 3 years. I'm finally happy that people have realized the problems and have stated them. The only way to make a game better is to point out it's flaws.

[RealmK]

To be fair Big Jim, bwiggy is one of the only few who actually offers constructive criticism to try and make the game better. And more often than not he's pretty spot on. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect the AI towards the end of a console gen to at the very least be serviceable to the offline player.

That's not to say it's horrid, at the very least the AI does perform a proper breakout unlike 2k's game which hasn't done that in years. Though up until this point there hasn't been enough player separation to distinguish stars from 4th liners. I'm hoping hockey IQ changes that as they're trumping up that particular feature pretty hard.

At the end of the day though the AI needs to be smarter, cpu control players need to actively at least make the effort to block passing lanes and not run out of position, as Dmen often do if an opposing forward goes deep against the wall. And really up until now there's been practically zero neutral zone pressure, which hopefully the new forecheck/backchecking strategies remedy.

I think we all know hockey is the hardest game to replicate on an AI level, but clearly EA can do better than what they've done with it the last few years or so.

[bwiggy33]

Quote: Originally Posted by RealmK

To be fair Big Jim, bwiggy is one of the only few who actually offers constructive criticism to try and make the game better. And more often than not he's pretty spot on. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect the AI towards the end of a console gen to at the very least be serviceable to the offline player. That's not to say it's horrid, at the very least the AI does perform a proper breakout unlike 2k's game which hasn't done that in years. Though up until this point there hasn't been enough player separation to distinguish stars from 4th liners. I'm hoping hockey IQ changes that as they're trumping up that particular feature pretty hard. At the end of the day though the AI needs to be smarter, cpu control players need to actively at least make the effort to block passing lanes and not run out of position, as Dmen often do if an opposing forward goes deep against the wall. And really up until now there's been practically zero neutral zone pressure, which hopefully the new forecheck/backchecking strategies remedy. I think we all know hockey is the hardest game to replicate on an AI level, but clearly EA can do better than what they've done with it the last few years or so.

I appreciate the support Realm. I'm in no way here to shoot down anyone's opinions because that's not who I am as a person. If I disagree I will, but I won't do it to call out someone because that's not fair to them. I'm just extremely opinionated about this game (sometimes possibly over the top) because I want it to replicate the sport of hockey as best it can because I love the sport so much and I love video games. That is all. I'm not here getting in a shouting match with someone about something so minuscule as a video game. There's more important things in life.

To me the AI is the most lacking part of the game. Realm every point you've made about the AI is correct. If this game can just get the player separation down and have strategies that work the way they are supposed to, I will be the happiest man on the planet. The best part is it's so possible that this could be the year.

[RealmK]

Quote: Originally Posted by bwiggy33

I appreciate the support Realm. I'm in no way here to shoot down anyone's opinions because that's not who I am as a person. If I disagree I will, but I won't do it to call out someone because that's not fair to them. I'm just extremely opinionated about this game (sometimes possibly over the top) because I want it to replicate the sport of hockey as best it can because I love the sport so much and I love video games. That is all. I'm not here getting in a shouting match with someone about something so minuscule as a video game. There's more important things in life. To me the AI is the most lacking part of the game. Realm every point you've made about the AI is correct. If this game can just get the player separation down and have strategies that work the way they are supposed to, I will be the happiest man on the planet. The best part is it's so possible that this could be the year.

No sweat bro, I just call em like I see em, and I again agree, there's zero reason not to be able to have player separation there and noticeable, and have forechecking and back checking strategies that work, that part of the AI programing isn't rocket science.

I hope this is the year as well, it's plain and simply over due.