The single reason NHL 20 and the series is unplayable

[mikey87]

Quote: Originally Posted by Honome

You know, that's exactly the problem with NHL games, we don't have anywhere else to look for since the EA game is the only one in the market. I don't like Fifa gameplay, for example, but at least i have PES to play and no reason to keep complaining in Fifa forums. I believe that most of the people complaining here were not be here repeating the same problems that the series have for years if they had another hockey game to play. I know there are other options but my PS3 is broken and i don't have a PC good enough to play the DJNEO version of NHL2K and i believe the majority of people are in the same situation having only a PS4 or XB1. So i love hockey and the only game i have to play is from EA series

When I finally got too frustrated with EA's NHL title, I started playing EHM. I have always preferred the GM/coaching stuff over actually playing the game, and that's where it becomes very obvious that EA's game engine is plain awful. And calling it awful is quite polite. Like I have mentioned here several times, there's no real difference between NHL All-Star team and a random CHL team. EHM has a pretty deep franchise system and it was actually very rewarding to achieve something in the game. Yes, it is text based, but still much more fun to play. Like for me (a finnish guy) it was so nice to draft a local guy and try to train him to reach the NHL level.

You do have elsewhere to look at. I also thought that I have to keep playing EA's representation of hockey, but I haven't really missed it at all. I would be more than happy to welcome a sim like hockey game where you can actually play or watch the game, but we have to agree on the fact that we are not going to see one in the near future.

And for what someone wrote about making the ratings kind of dynamic for each league/level, that would not be such a huge task. What would be needed for that is a couple of additional columns in the player attributes table and a "few" lines of code to display ratings accordingly and use these new values in-game. Then just use different modifiers for attributes. Speed would be pretty much the same on all levels, strength would need some modifiers based on league/level etc.

[The EVHL]

Quote: Originally Posted by sfpxgalaxy

Could you elaborate on that ? Can it be done in Franchise mode ?

No, this can't be done in Franchise mode which is why we need either an AI revamp, 32-team franchise control, or both because they can update Franchise Mode all they want, but if the on-ice product is lacking the mode will go untouched.

When I play, I play in "Play Now" and I use my custom slider set + pre-game strategy adjustments for both teams, then I play 1/2 the game as each team in-order to deliver an experience closer to a "sim" version of a competitive eSport league. My goal was to aim for a meta that wasn't too fast/slow, wasn't too frustrating where gamers would hate it, but wasn't too easy where sim-heads would hate it. I guess I could go update my slider post to give the full sliders, but here are the strategy adjustments I make:

Forecheck: 2-3
Neutral Zone: 1-2-2 Blue
NZ/FC: 6/6 (full forecheck)
Offensive Pressure: Aggressive (HUM)/Defend Lead (CPU)
Defensive Pressure: High Pressure
Defensive strategy: Collapsing
Everything after that is user choice.

Offensive lines:
Carry/Dump: 10/10 (mitigates CPU spinning in the NZ for forever)
Cycle/Shoot: 0/10 (helps your AI support the puck)
Efficiency/Energy: 10/10 Simulate Online eSports played by humans
Dont block/Block: 10/10 again, simulating eSports

Defensive Pairings:
Hold Line/Pinch: 9/10 (produces better gaps in the NZ, CPU actually holds the zone)
Cycle/Shoot: I don't know if this does anything, but the hope is that it will make forwards go towards the net when the puck is at the point.

I won't hijack this thread anymore with slider stuff. I'll try to update my post over in the slider forums with the gameplay sliders, all of the strat stuff i have memorized so it's easy for me to type up.

[sfpxgalaxy]

Quote: Originally Posted by HipNotiiC_x

No, this can't be done in Franchise mode which is why we need either an AI revamp, 32-team franchise control, or both because they can update Franchise Mode all they want, but if the on-ice product is lacking the mode will go untouched. When I play, I play in "Play Now" and I use my custom slider set + pre-game strategy adjustments for both teams, then I play 1/2 the game as each team in-order to deliver an experience closer to a "sim" version of a competitive eSport league. My goal was to aim for a meta that wasn't too fast/slow, wasn't too frustrating where gamers would hate it, but wasn't too easy where sim-heads would hate it. I guess I could go update my slider post to give the full sliders, but here are the strategy adjustments I make: Forecheck: 2-3 Neutral Zone: 1-2-2 Blue NZ/FC: 6/6 (full forecheck) Offensive Pressure: Aggressive (HUM)/Defend Lead (CPU) Defensive Pressure: High Pressure Defensive strategy: Collapsing Everything after that is user choice. Offensive lines: Carry/Dump: 10/10 (mitigates CPU spinning in the NZ for forever) Cycle/Shoot: 0/10 (helps your AI support the puck) Efficiency/Energy: 10/10 Simulate Online eSports played by humans Dont block/Block: 10/10 again, simulating eSports Defensive Pairings: Hold Line/Pinch: 9/10 (produces better gaps in the NZ, CPU actually holds the zone) Cycle/Shoot: I don't know if this does anything, but the hope is that it will make forwards go towards the net when the puck is at the point. I won't hijack this thread anymore with slider stuff. I'll try to update my post over in the slider forums with the gameplay sliders, all of the strat stuff i have memorized so it's easy for me to type up.

Thanks a lot for the detailed answer.
That would be great if we could edit the strategies of all teams in Franchise mode.

I'm wondering if the new coach feature of NHL 20 could help a bit, to at least add a bit of variety in cpu play styles in Franchise mode. Anyone made experiments in that regard ?

[tyler289]

Quote: Originally Posted by jake19ny

The problem I have with your reason for no player separation is that Madden has it. Try and run with a scrub against a great defense for instance....I used other examples in my OP. The ratings in Madden are not much different than NHL yet a great runner plays like a great runner, a scrambling QB can take off and an immobile slower one cannot. You can pick apart a weak corner and get shutdown by a stud. There is absolutely no defensible reason why every player in this game plays virtually identical.

Madden doesn't have to build in ratings for players in like 5 different levels of league talent. I agree Madden has it - it's awesome. There's a pretty big variety in ratings, play styles, strengths, weaknesses, everyone feels pretty different. But stretching the ratings would alter a ton beyond the basic "people would feel different" feeling.

How can someone play a WHL or BeAPro game if their linemates and everything are rated like a 40? Like I said above, a "league talent" weight to everyone's rating depending on the league they are in would be amazing and give some nice mystery to players when you sign them in the FA pool from Europe or call them up from the AHL.

Madden just needs to rate players based on the NFL, and a guy can be as low as a 45 or 50 and be very bad. But what if NHL tried that? If the worst NHL guys are say, 55, then what about the AHL? Then there's the WHL below that, not to mention the European leagues. The game would be unplayable if they stretched it out to improve it. That's what I think their biggest reasoning is. Then on top of that they'd have to change progression dramatically because guys can't get drafted at like a 30 overall at age 18 and then make it to the NHL in 3 years.

If they add in more ratings to give some differences (like how Madden has tendencies, different ratings for throw accuracy, etc.), that would go a long way if they can't figure out a way to weigh the ratings based on the league.

This is also a huge problem I have with franchise mode and want to see it addressed, but I don't think their silence on it is anything malicious or nefarious. It would be a game-wide change not to mention the NHLPA would probably get involved.

[Rhudey]

Quote: Originally Posted by sfpxgalaxy

Thanks a lot for the detailed answer. That would be great if we could edit the strategies of all teams in Franchise mode. I'm wondering if the new coach feature of NHL 20 could help a bit, to at least add a bit of variety in cpu play styles in Franchise mode. Anyone made experiments in that regard ?

That's what I've been trying to find out as well, if the different coaching strategies carry over to the on ice gameplay, at least teams will feel different.

[SuperGoalies]

to answer your question about , do strategies carry over to go game by game, yes they do, but it is u who has to change every line strategies manually, cause AI CPU will dictate the whole game and will take over if u don't manage line changes and change strategies for forwards and defensemen.


so like if AI CPU decides to stretch pass (Blue vs Blue), u then have to clogg offensive zone with : Crash the Net (is NHL 19 new epic Defensive strategy shutdown and scoring and checking)


to get behind the AI CPU defense if they clog defensive zone, either behind net or overload or crash the net.


its ever changing , u cannot just play 1 strategy through whole game, sometimes AI CPU tries many different stuff in full 20 minutes, I actually sometimes watch them do it, I could be going side boards and the AI CPU clog side boards, they usually get message after few times u get into zone, and score 5 goals.


does AI CPU try to come back from a 5-2 score, yes they do, it is your job to change forechecks and defensive pressure to counter that, line combinations, this year they made all strategies work to counter act AI CPU, cause AI CPU does change strategies a lot seems, there was times , i had headaches cause AI CPU always was trying something new, I must played like 50 games full 20 minutes, i'd start in morning to 1 o clock and then take break and i'd play from 4-7 almost, AI CPU changes strategies rabidly and different stuff.


they do learn at rate of like magic.


they do learn your patterns and stuff, so u have to ever difficult and different, u cannot just be same all time, u must always be ever changing, actually survey ice to there patterns.


I always keep it at balance and Press and all at max, or one below balanced.


no strategy is ever same.


AI learns so quick boom, u could have good strategy and score 1-3 goals, then AI CPU changes something, then next its tie game 3-3.


another philosophy I had to learn, 2-1 or 2-0 score is never safe against AI CPU, cause AI CPU will indeed change strategies to tie game and take over, if u don't resist and run up score, I always run up score 6-2 or - 7-3 or 8-5 or 5-4 or 6-4, are just some of scores AI CPU will try pull on u, I call it miracle on ice come back. LOL!, cause I know how smart AI CPU will be If don't keep ahead of them.


its so bad how well they learn and patches they made to the game, I haven't even won a Stanley Cup yet, this will be first year I actually felt challenged and never win a cup, I did win a calder cup, I actually like when smaller players are in line up now, speed and agility and acceleration up the ice, so yah smaller and bigger players help a lot, I've decided to have 1 small guy on each line now, sometimes 2 , same with defense, first line all big guys and second and third 1 small guy and 1 big defensemen.


if I see team of huge players , I rebuild roster from AHL to NHL, with small and big players and small defensemen and big defensemen, instantly I also try to fill gaps of 4 left and 4 center and 4 right wings and 7 defensemen and 2-3 goalies now. or add extra center men.

[jake19ny]

Quote: Originally Posted by tyler289

Madden doesn't have to build in ratings for players in like 5 different levels of league talent. I agree Madden has it - it's awesome. There's a pretty big variety in ratings, play styles, strengths, weaknesses, everyone feels pretty different. But stretching the ratings would alter a ton beyond the basic "people would feel different" feeling. How can someone play a WHL or BeAPro game if their linemates and everything are rated like a 40? Like I said above, a "league talent" weight to everyone's rating depending on the league they are in would be amazing and give some nice mystery to players when you sign them in the FA pool from Europe or call them up from the AHL. Madden just needs to rate players based on the NFL, and a guy can be as low as a 45 or 50 and be very bad. But what if NHL tried that? If the worst NHL guys are say, 55, then what about the AHL? Then there's the WHL below that, not to mention the European leagues. The game would be unplayable if they stretched it out to improve it. That's what I think their biggest reasoning is. Then on top of that they'd have to change progression dramatically because guys can't get drafted at like a 30 overall at age 18 and then make it to the NHL in 3 years. If they add in more ratings to give some differences (like how Madden has tendencies, different ratings for throw accuracy, etc.), that would go a long way if they can't figure out a way to weigh the ratings based on the league. This is also a huge problem I have with franchise mode and want to see it addressed, but I don't think their silence on it is anything malicious or nefarious. It would be a game-wide change not to mention the NHLPA would probably get involved.

Excellent points. So this begs the question should EA eliminate the other leagues? As an offline season only guy I would say yes. I would rather have the player separation in my NHL season and have a long over due roster share where the community can add the missing players (and have way better and more accurate rosters than EA I might add). I don’t know if Franchise mode guys would agree with that but if I was into Franchise I think I would rather have the separation and the mystery aspect you mentioned of wether you draft a stud or not. Have the ratings go up for prospects.

I don’t claim to have all the answers but I’m certain the status quo is bad. Every player playing the same making every team play the same makes for a bad and boring experience. All the franchise editions in the world can’t make that boredom go away.

[htskr21]

I'm with you guys, to a point. The guy pointing out the Madden ratings being able to go from essentially zero, all the way up to a hundred is absolutely right.

That said, I've played ten games into a franchise with 20'. I'm playing with Montreal (terrible) but I'll tell you that Jonathan Druin does indeed feel different to me than Shea Webber. Paul Byron is faster than Jesperi Kotkanemi and while Phillip Danault feels like Tomas Tatar skating around, he certainly doesn't have the shot.

It's indeed possible that I project those qualities on to my digital Habs and maybe I'm just imagining things. Maybe because I'm old and cut my teeth on NHLPA 93' and I play with hybrid controls, relying more on positioning and less on the skill stick, I don't notice them all handling the puck the same?

The last game I played just a few minutes ago, I lost in OT to San Jose. Now again, maybe I'm projecting but Erik Karlsson was everywhere, often with the puck. Logan Couture beat Price with a top shelf wrister in the slot that Kevin Labanc had been trying all game, without success. For me, Weber scored on a slapper from the point that nobody saw as it beat Martin Jones low to the stick side and Druin finished off a 2 on 1 with Domi with one of the new animations.

I only ever played hockey at a recreational level but I played baseball one step below pro and I can tell you, even at that level, there wasn't much to choose between players. Everyone was good. I can guess that the gap shrinks even further at the professional level of any sport when you're dealing with the top one-percent of the top one-percent.

I'd hazard a guess that Kevin Labanc would score just as many goals as Logan Couture if they were both facing one of us in goal, instead of Carey Price, et al.