Balance vs. Fighter Realism/Sports Game Logic v. Fighting Game Logic

[TheRizzzle]

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

I dont know if the NBA2k comparison works because in NBA 2k you are talking about options. These arent options. These are actual game mechanics. Lets use your Hunt example. Right now in the game, I know that if I want to throw a spin kick with Hunt I have to press a certain button combo. The button combo is the same if its Hunt or Dennis Siver or Rose Namajunas. Under your theory, a spin kick for someone like Siver (who is good at spinning kicks) would be different than for someone like Hunt (who is bad with them). So a casual fan (who makes up a good portion of the buying public) will need to know that Hunt's button combo is more difficult to do than Siver's. With 250 plus fighters that can be a little intimidating for a fan who just wants to pick up the game and just play. ****, its intimidating to a guy like me who has played the game alot.

I see your point but I'm going to play Devils Advocate to flesh this out some more.

I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit.

You know the striking input for a spinning kick attack BUT you don't know which fighters have that attack unless you go find out by using them and diving into the game. So you're already making that effort as is.

You do know, even if you're a casual fan that there is an L1 Triangle button input for every fighter, you just don't know what it does for every fighter unless you dive into the game.

You eventually decide that you're going to either learn the uniqueness of all fighters or you're going to zero in on using one fighter that you like in particular.

If your the first guy you're probably more inclined to be less intimidated by this because you appreciate the intricate details of learning the game anyway (or you don't because this fan base is sometimes adverse to using their imaginations about what could happen with fighter abilities and fighters changing weight classes. That's not a shot at you in particular, it's a general observation about the forum members I've made regarding other suggestions I've made in the past. Basically if it hasn't happened in real life a lot of people here don't want it in the game).

If you're the second guy it won't be that hard to study the move set and find out and memorize your fighters combinations because again, you're doing that anyway.

I think it might be a bit much for the next game but if this game continues on it's going to need to get creative like this because the sport is going to continue to advance in athleticism and move sets. You won't be able to limit every fighter to a handful of moves because of controller limitations and the casual fans unwillingness to embrace a deeper understanding of the game.

Every sports title has had to go through this as they've evolved. The game evolves and eventually the players come with it.

This also an example of balance versus realism. By not going this route you are balancing the game because a casual fan should only have to know one button combo for Hunt and Siver's spinning kick rather than having to understand that the reason the combo input is different in my scenario is because Siver is good at throwing them versus Hunt is not. Hunt's straight right is the equivalent of Siver's spinning kick, that's why the button combos for those two moves should be of similar difficulties and ability to memorize.

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[WarMMA]

Hmm...I get what your saying I think, but I don't think button combos are the way to go. If anything we need to get away from the arcade fighter feel...the combo system is bad enough smh. If the fighter has a technique strike that they are bad at it could have a regular input, but let it have a sloppier slower animation and be way less effective that's all.

[pescadortiempo]

Undisputed had real life combinations they used less stamina and did more damage

[Donnie_Brasco_FR]

Quote: Originally Posted by pescadortiempo

Undisputed had real life combinations they used less stamina and did more damage

They used less stamina on which mode?
The normal "Cyborg" Mode or the Simulation mode?

I still do not come back that UD Devs had blocked ranked fights on normal mode

[manliest_Man]

Quote: Originally Posted by WarMMA

Hmm...I get what your saying I think, but I don't think button combos are the way to go. If anything we need to get away from the arcade fighter feel...the combo system is bad enough smh. If the fighter has a technique strike that they are bad at it could have a regular input, but let it have a sloppier slower animation and be way less effective that's all.

I like the way TheRizzle put my thoughts in order.

A mix of making the input harder would most likely make a system like that work.

For Example, Steven Wonder Boy can throw a lead Head Kick, just by pressing Left Stick away from opponent + Lead kick button.

Daniel Cormier on the other hand, would have to do a harder input to do the same kick, like let's say a half moon away from the opponent torwards up or down + lead kick and that would result in a sloppy head kick nonetheless, because that move isn't part of his arsenal. That would be consistent on all fighters who don't have a lead kick in their fighting style/past real-life fights, however they do still have the ability to throw one, just harder to input + ineffective, but still an option.

So not only is it hard to input + it would still give the fighter uniqueness that we all crave, yet keep us on edge on all of the suprisingly available tools the enemy has.

That idea, i know it's gonna be hard to implement, but it's not really that far out of reach.

Of course i don't expect it to happen from EA UFC 2 to EA UFC 3, but as TheRizzle said, if the game needs to get creative and focus on being more realistic and true to the sport, they might have to come up with a simillar system like that.

Maybe Stats such as Kick Speed/Damage don't need to be 2 Dimensional, either High or Low, maybe they can be on an X & Y axis.

But those are all just ideas to entertain and have people say their opinion on how they would think they'd play out and wether some of them could actually work and be realistic.

[WarMMA]

Yh I get the basic idea of what you are saying. It would be something cool to do, but I doubt they would do something like that cuz of the fact that they want things to be simple for the "pick up and play" gamer or the casuals. Plus if every fighter can do every strike, doesn't that take away from fighter uniqueness seeing that everyone can do everything? What really makes the fighters unique is having certain things available that others don't. Imo it would be better to just give guys realistic move sets and if a fighter has a technique strike that they have done but suck at, just give it a sloppy looking slower animation and let it be less effective.

[manliest_Man]

Quote: Originally Posted by WarMMA

Yh I get the basic idea of what you are saying. It would be something cool to do, but I doubt they would do something like that cuz of the fact that they want things to be simple for the "pick up and play" gamer or the casuals. Plus if every fighter can do every strike, doesn't that take away from fighter uniqueness seeing that everyone can do everything? What really makes the fighters unique is having certain things available that others don't. Imo it would be better to just give guys realistic move sets and if a fighter has a technique strike that they have done but suck at, just give it a sloppy looking slower animation and let it be less effective.

The point is, it's not about everyone being able to do everything. That's the concept of it. They are all welcome to attempt everything, but it doesn't mean it will happen. Look at the videos i put up on the spoilers on my original comment and see what ends up happening when untrained people attempt strikes like that.

Depending on the fighter it's gonna be harder to be inputed and more ineffective + sloppy + will gas them out easier + it would make them lose their balance easier + it would make them susceptible to an instant 1 shot knockout, to the point that it would be useless and noone would want to do it and make the input such as it can't happen by accident, if it's not in the fighter's arsenal.


But at the same time, don't have it be as useless, such as for example Cowboy Cerrone, although he barely does any spinning kicks, they shouldn't be the main weapon in his arsenal, but he should still be able to pull off an acceptable one, just based on the fact that he is a mauy thai fighter who uses his leg attacks a lot and just because his physicality and body type allows him to.

[WarMMA]

Quote: Originally Posted by manliest_Man

The point is, it's not about everyone being able to do everything. That's the concept of it. They are all welcome to attempt everything, but it doesn't mean it will happen. Look at the videos i put up on the spoilers on my original comment and see what ends up happening when untrained people attempt strikes like that. Depending on the fighter it's gonna be harder to be inputed and more ineffective + sloppy + will gas them out easier + it would make them lose their balance easier + it would make them susceptible to an instant 1 shot knockout, to the point that it would be useless and noone would want to do it and make the input such as it can't happen by accident, if it's not in the fighter's arsenal. But at the same time, don't have it be as useless, such as for example Cowboy Cerrone, although he barely does any spinning kicks, they shouldn't be the main weapon in his arsenal, but he should still be able to pull off an acceptable one, just based on the fact that he is a mauy thai fighter who uses his leg attacks a lot and just because his physicality and body type allows him to.

Well the thing is when you start thinking like that, that's when things like realistic unique movesets will be thrown out the window, which isn't a good thing tbh. What your saying is "realistic" as in any fighter can attempt to do whatever strike they want irl, but most of us want it to be realistic compared to what we see fighters do in their actual fights. So going a route like that will kinda take away from the more sim experience most are looking for. I can't speak for everyone, but when I say I want a more realistic game, I mean realistic in comparison to what I see in actual MMA. So everyone being able to attempt everything in the game would kill it for me and i'm sure some others. It would be something cool to do, but wouldn't be a good move to make imo.