Re: ASB04 vs HH04 (Ps2)

[nikeford]

Re: ASB04 vs HH04 (Ps2)

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
A baseball hits the plate in under 2 seconds in the MLB. Its represents that in ASB.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Actually a baseball reaches home plate in under 1 second. But trying to put a cursor on the ball and hitting a button in that amount of time, especially when transposed on a flat tv screen is completely different than using muscle memory to put the bat on a ball in the real world. Comparing video game pitch speeds to real life makes no sense and is like comparing apples to refrigerators.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
I don't know the exact amount of time that it takes to get from tthe mound to home plate, but I'm willing to bet my bank account that it takes longer than Under 1 second!!! No way in hell a ball is thrown from the mound to the plate in under one second. It takes twice that long just to swing a bat I think...I'll go with 1.5 - 2 seconds....but no way in under 1 second. Period.

[nikeford]

Re: ASB04 vs HH04 (Ps2)

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
A baseball hits the plate in under 2 seconds in the MLB. Its represents that in ASB.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Actually a baseball reaches home plate in under 1 second. But trying to put a cursor on the ball and hitting a button in that amount of time, especially when transposed on a flat tv screen is completely different than using muscle memory to put the bat on a ball in the real world. Comparing video game pitch speeds to real life makes no sense and is like comparing apples to refrigerators.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
I don't know the exact amount of time that it takes to get from tthe mound to home plate, but I'm willing to bet my bank account that it takes longer than Under 1 second!!! No way in hell a ball is thrown from the mound to the plate in under one second. It takes twice that long just to swing a bat I think...I'll go with 1.5 - 2 seconds....but no way in under 1 second. Period.

[bkrich83]

Re: ASB04 vs HH04 (Ps2)

someone do the math.. 60 feet 6 inches at 90 mph.

I graduated from college 9 years ago, and have had to do much math since.

[bkrich83]

Re: ASB04 vs HH04 (Ps2)

someone do the math.. 60 feet 6 inches at 90 mph.

I graduated from college 9 years ago, and have had to do much math since.

[bkrich83]

Re: ASB04 vs HH04 (Ps2)

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
A baseball hits the plate in under 2 seconds in the MLB. Its represents that in ASB.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Actually a baseball reaches home plate in under 1 second. But trying to put a cursor on the ball and hitting a button in that amount of time, especially when transposed on a flat tv screen is completely different than using muscle memory to put the bat on a ball in the real world. Comparing video game pitch speeds to real life makes no sense and is like comparing apples to refrigerators.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
I don't know the exact amount of time that it takes to get from tthe mound to home plate, but I'm willing to bet my bank account that it takes longer than Under 1 second!!! No way in hell a ball is thrown from the mound to the plate in under one second. It takes twice that long just to swing a bat I think...I'll go with 1.5 - 2 seconds....but no way in under 1 second. Period.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Better go to the bank and make your withdrawl.

According to this math problem figured out by some 8th graders (boy do I feel stupid) a 95 mph pitch takes .43 seconds to reach home plate from the pitcher.

Baseball equation

1.5-2.0 seconds? Maybe if someone threw the ball underhanded??

[bkrich83]

Re: ASB04 vs HH04 (Ps2)

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
A baseball hits the plate in under 2 seconds in the MLB. Its represents that in ASB.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Actually a baseball reaches home plate in under 1 second. But trying to put a cursor on the ball and hitting a button in that amount of time, especially when transposed on a flat tv screen is completely different than using muscle memory to put the bat on a ball in the real world. Comparing video game pitch speeds to real life makes no sense and is like comparing apples to refrigerators.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
I don't know the exact amount of time that it takes to get from tthe mound to home plate, but I'm willing to bet my bank account that it takes longer than Under 1 second!!! No way in hell a ball is thrown from the mound to the plate in under one second. It takes twice that long just to swing a bat I think...I'll go with 1.5 - 2 seconds....but no way in under 1 second. Period.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Better go to the bank and make your withdrawl.

According to this math problem figured out by some 8th graders (boy do I feel stupid) a 95 mph pitch takes .43 seconds to reach home plate from the pitcher.

Baseball equation

1.5-2.0 seconds? Maybe if someone threw the ball underhanded??

[JackB]

Re: ASB04 vs HH04 (Ps2)

Dick.....all the points u made about ASB's AI were all valid, but they dont involve ACTUAL GAMEPLAY on the field. Thats where ASB falls short. The horrible baseruuning AI......the fly ball after fly ball (baseball has a large amount of ground balls.......especially with a sinker ball pitcher), the too many overthrows, the "wait for the animation" sluggish fielding controls. It just doesn't "play" well if you are into controlling all facets of the game. Sure its got a deep frachise mode if you are into that sort of thing, but I am looking for a game that plays accurately on the field. Play a game verses the Braves and make sure they are pitching Maddux. You should get loads of ground balls, right? Well, I can tell u for sure, you won't. How is that realistic baseball?

[JackB]

Re: ASB04 vs HH04 (Ps2)

Dick.....all the points u made about ASB's AI were all valid, but they dont involve ACTUAL GAMEPLAY on the field. Thats where ASB falls short. The horrible baseruuning AI......the fly ball after fly ball (baseball has a large amount of ground balls.......especially with a sinker ball pitcher), the too many overthrows, the "wait for the animation" sluggish fielding controls. It just doesn't "play" well if you are into controlling all facets of the game. Sure its got a deep frachise mode if you are into that sort of thing, but I am looking for a game that plays accurately on the field. Play a game verses the Braves and make sure they are pitching Maddux. You should get loads of ground balls, right? Well, I can tell u for sure, you won't. How is that realistic baseball?

[Dick_Smalls]

Re: ASB04 vs HH04 (Ps2)

Jack,....Im not going to defend ASB 100% and say its a perfect baseball game....i still havent found that yet, but it is my favorite. Basically what it comes down to is you have to weigh the pros and cons of every game and determine which one has the most pros and fewest cons that your willing to live with to enjoy your experience.

Since I own both games, I can be very partial and say like I said earlier, they are both very good games, I just find myself enjoying ASB alot more, I find the slower pace and the entire game ... oh, and most importantly, the challenge more than I do when I play HH. I feel as tho I need to put more effort, strategy, thought and discipline......not to mention patience, when I play ASB. And that to me is more rewarding. I find nothing comes easy for me in ASB and I really have to work hard to play well in the game. As for HH it's a fun game to play but I never really feel totally challenged...even when i lose. The game to me feels too statistically determined and I never feel overmatched by a pitcher when I'm at the plate....It's not a good feeling for me expecting to make contact with every swing. It takes away from the fear or the helplessness of facing a truly dominant pitcher.

However there are alot of things I do like about HH, The fielding, despite the very arcadey super dives, plays great. The controls are fluid and the new animations are excellent. They really capture the feel and flow of fielding the ball. The momentum of players slowing down, turning around and firing the ball back, the crow hop and the tosses to the relay men are done perfectly. In fact the relay system really works the way its supposed to, If you dont hit the cutoff and throw directly to a base, your gonna give up the extra base and possibly more. I like the way you can manually cutoff balls in the middle infield if a throw is coming to the plate and you step a middle infielder in front of the ball....They did a great job with this aspect of the game. However, The Batting/Pitching interface really kills it for me.

I can see some of your gripes with ASB, however some of them are a bit overblown.......In response to too many fly balls, I'm not sure I agree with this or at least not to the exent that you see it as a major imbalance. This game seems to be based more on physics, than statistical dice roll.....so if your seeing too many fly balls that may be because of 2 things;

1 Your either getting under the balls too often forcing alot of lifted fly balls to the outfield and/or your also placing your pitches too high in the strikezone and the cpu is also getting under them as well. I see pretty realistic amount of grounders in my games because I really pitch down....actually down out of the strike zone because ASB has a habit, this year to, place your targeted pitches a little higher than you anticipate...especially with breaking balls. They seem to keep em up. So what I do to compensate for this is intentionally throw my cursor a bit below the strikezone to catch the bottom alot. And the CPU will go with alot of the pitches down low and force them to the ground or low line drives. Not always, but alot more since I've been doing this. Also, what I do at bat to when I really want to try and put one on the ground to advance a runner, I simply angle the 3d Cursor down so that I have a much greater chance of pounding into the ground upon contact. I tend to get under alot of balls too, if I dont do this.

High Heats baserunning is better than ASB's.....I agree, they really are aggressive at taking the extra base, scoring runners from 2nd on hits, and clearing the bases on extra basehits whereas ASB runners can easily get held up when your Outfielder picks it up and just fires it in to any base, even if he is way back on the warning track.

But even with a few of these issues, it's not enough to sway me away from the essence of baseball , the variety of 'anything can happen' feel I get when I play each game and the brutally realistic and deep GM career/franchise mode that ASB offers......right now I'm pretty much in baseball Heaven.

[Dick_Smalls]

Re: ASB04 vs HH04 (Ps2)

Jack,....Im not going to defend ASB 100% and say its a perfect baseball game....i still havent found that yet, but it is my favorite. Basically what it comes down to is you have to weigh the pros and cons of every game and determine which one has the most pros and fewest cons that your willing to live with to enjoy your experience.

Since I own both games, I can be very partial and say like I said earlier, they are both very good games, I just find myself enjoying ASB alot more, I find the slower pace and the entire game ... oh, and most importantly, the challenge more than I do when I play HH. I feel as tho I need to put more effort, strategy, thought and discipline......not to mention patience, when I play ASB. And that to me is more rewarding. I find nothing comes easy for me in ASB and I really have to work hard to play well in the game. As for HH it's a fun game to play but I never really feel totally challenged...even when i lose. The game to me feels too statistically determined and I never feel overmatched by a pitcher when I'm at the plate....It's not a good feeling for me expecting to make contact with every swing. It takes away from the fear or the helplessness of facing a truly dominant pitcher.

However there are alot of things I do like about HH, The fielding, despite the very arcadey super dives, plays great. The controls are fluid and the new animations are excellent. They really capture the feel and flow of fielding the ball. The momentum of players slowing down, turning around and firing the ball back, the crow hop and the tosses to the relay men are done perfectly. In fact the relay system really works the way its supposed to, If you dont hit the cutoff and throw directly to a base, your gonna give up the extra base and possibly more. I like the way you can manually cutoff balls in the middle infield if a throw is coming to the plate and you step a middle infielder in front of the ball....They did a great job with this aspect of the game. However, The Batting/Pitching interface really kills it for me.

I can see some of your gripes with ASB, however some of them are a bit overblown.......In response to too many fly balls, I'm not sure I agree with this or at least not to the exent that you see it as a major imbalance. This game seems to be based more on physics, than statistical dice roll.....so if your seeing too many fly balls that may be because of 2 things;

1 Your either getting under the balls too often forcing alot of lifted fly balls to the outfield and/or your also placing your pitches too high in the strikezone and the cpu is also getting under them as well. I see pretty realistic amount of grounders in my games because I really pitch down....actually down out of the strike zone because ASB has a habit, this year to, place your targeted pitches a little higher than you anticipate...especially with breaking balls. They seem to keep em up. So what I do to compensate for this is intentionally throw my cursor a bit below the strikezone to catch the bottom alot. And the CPU will go with alot of the pitches down low and force them to the ground or low line drives. Not always, but alot more since I've been doing this. Also, what I do at bat to when I really want to try and put one on the ground to advance a runner, I simply angle the 3d Cursor down so that I have a much greater chance of pounding into the ground upon contact. I tend to get under alot of balls too, if I dont do this.

High Heats baserunning is better than ASB's.....I agree, they really are aggressive at taking the extra base, scoring runners from 2nd on hits, and clearing the bases on extra basehits whereas ASB runners can easily get held up when your Outfielder picks it up and just fires it in to any base, even if he is way back on the warning track.

But even with a few of these issues, it's not enough to sway me away from the essence of baseball , the variety of 'anything can happen' feel I get when I play each game and the brutally realistic and deep GM career/franchise mode that ASB offers......right now I'm pretty much in baseball Heaven.

[SoxFan]

Re: ASB04 vs HH04 (Ps2)

D_S, you have a really great way of describing what is good about these games to you. It's clear that you put a lot of though into this, and are not just rambling on like some know-it-all. I'm just glad that we have at least 2 really good games so far to pick from, instead of one crappy game and one good game. There is something for everyone.

[SoxFan]

Re: ASB04 vs HH04 (Ps2)

D_S, you have a really great way of describing what is good about these games to you. It's clear that you put a lot of though into this, and are not just rambling on like some know-it-all. I'm just glad that we have at least 2 really good games so far to pick from, instead of one crappy game and one good game. There is something for everyone.

[JackB]

Re: ASB04 vs HH04 (Ps2)

DIck,
I am glad that u are enjoying ASB so much. Nothing wrong with that because that's what its all about in my book. I admit that you can win a game at HH by just playing "casually" without much though, where ASB can be a lot more challenging. Challenging is very important, but so is actual gameplay, so it's a toss up right now. The lack of ground balls is really killing me right now. Yes, I could use the 3D cursor and angle it down, but where's the realism in that? The beauty of the "classic" cursor is the ball should go where it goes based on contact. If u get under it, it should pop up...if you swing early and on top, you should ground it to 3rd, etc. With that 3D cursor, you can aim the cursor any way, totally disregarding where the pitch is. You can pull a low , outside pitch just by "tilting" your cursor. Not real baseball. I love the concept of the classic cursor, but I dont think I am getting under everything. The other thing u havent responded to is the lack of interaction u have while pitching. Just pick a spot and press is all it is. I am really interested in MVP's pitching concept and to see how it pans out. It's too bad that they made pitching challenging, but made hitting all timing based??!!! Ow well, maybe WSB will be the one for me.

[JackB]

Re: ASB04 vs HH04 (Ps2)

DIck,
I am glad that u are enjoying ASB so much. Nothing wrong with that because that's what its all about in my book. I admit that you can win a game at HH by just playing "casually" without much though, where ASB can be a lot more challenging. Challenging is very important, but so is actual gameplay, so it's a toss up right now. The lack of ground balls is really killing me right now. Yes, I could use the 3D cursor and angle it down, but where's the realism in that? The beauty of the "classic" cursor is the ball should go where it goes based on contact. If u get under it, it should pop up...if you swing early and on top, you should ground it to 3rd, etc. With that 3D cursor, you can aim the cursor any way, totally disregarding where the pitch is. You can pull a low , outside pitch just by "tilting" your cursor. Not real baseball. I love the concept of the classic cursor, but I dont think I am getting under everything. The other thing u havent responded to is the lack of interaction u have while pitching. Just pick a spot and press is all it is. I am really interested in MVP's pitching concept and to see how it pans out. It's too bad that they made pitching challenging, but made hitting all timing based??!!! Ow well, maybe WSB will be the one for me.

[Dick_Smalls]

Re: ASB04 vs HH04 (Ps2)

Ok Jack......two things to try and bring some more discussion to the table;

Firstly, the 3D cursor plays out very realistically....the tilt in 3d mode tries to simulate the way a batter swings thru a zone.

I'm going to try and give a very basic example of the way the 3d cursor differs from 2d and how it translates to real hitting in the best way I can:

In 2D cursor mode...lets say you get a fastball down the pipe, lets say you have the cursor dead on and place a level swing on the ball.....this shoul realistically result in a line drive according to basic physics.

Let's say you now are in 3d mode, You get that same fastball dead center, lets say you have the cursor exactly centered like the example above, however this time you have a slight tilt up on the cursor, This now should result in a fly ball lifted, all depending on the amount of tilt you have added. Now that we understand that, which you already probablly knew, The concept behind the tilt is to replicate the way a batter swings his bat thru a zone. Not all batters put level swings thru a plane, some have a slight upper cut, some will chop down on a ball, ect. I dont know exactly how the actual physics were programmed into ASB but just thru experimentation, I have found the tilt feature to compliment the 3d cursor very well to give the sensation of swinging thru a zone. Now as you stated above......The tilt feature does not total presidence and ignore cursor placement, pitched ball location, timing of swing, ect.......It simply just adds another variable to the physics formula to try and create a realistic feel to batting. So with this in mind, Just because you may tilt the cursor all the way DOWN doesnt mean you will always hit it down.....The final results will ultimately depend on where exactly the ball makes contact with the bat and at what angle. It is still possible to swing down on a ball, and catch it at the topside part of the bat in which case it should deflect the flight of the ball upward. Im not a physics major but to me, the angle of the cursor seems to just accent the other variables, not replace them.

In terms of pitching......Im happier with the system ASB employs over HH's method, they both have pros and cons. In HH, It captures the uncertainty of trying to command your pitches and location to a certain extent but not giving you a cursor to aim with but rather only allowing you to pick a location zone and throw. However, I prefer ASB's method because I like to have a specific area to target and basically have the pitch wind up in the general vicinity....it adds to alot of the strategy and pitcher/batter intensity in the game. the downside to this is the fact that you really never lose total control of a count because the game can be still a bit too easy at times to locate pitches with just enough control over placement to really control your pitch counts and avoid walks. I think the perfect way to fix this next year would be to have some more randomness in the amount of pitches that totally miss the mark...and see this flucuate proportionately with a pitcher's CONTROL RATING....it could definitely use some tweaking without acutally changing the pitch cursor system that alot of people seem to enjoy. Finally, In HH, I really dont like the pitch system they use because I feel there is not enough control of location in the game and the results of pitched balls feel a bit too randomized to really utilize the pitching strategies that I use in ASB. Also the lack of Hot/Cold streaks give the pitcher nothing to really attack which strips the realism and strategy aspect of it even further. In ASB, the fact that you have a bit more control of the locations of your pitches is offset very well by the fact that the hitters are very good at making contact with anything laid out over the heart of the strike zone.....This forces you to work the corners, mix up the timing and most importantly, attack their COLD zones. I have found that Hitters will more oftenly swing at pitches just outside the strike zones of their COLD sections. Also in ASB, I feel the mixing up of locations and speeds feels a bit more realistic in keeping the batters off balance.....which is a huge part of baseball.

In HH, I just feel there is a bit less strategy and bit too much randomness in the pitching / batting confrontations and I feel like I have less control over making a difference by pitching intelligently.


I hope this didnt sound too confusing and I hope this helps.