Why did they take out zone hitting?

[CMH]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

Hmm, not a bad comeback! Similar yeah, I agree. I never liked that system BTW Much prefer The Show's classic pitching.

Yea. I think our biggest disagreement with the hitting system is our preference for how much the CPU controls over the User.

The Show's Classic Pitching system gives the User more control. This new timing system for hitting appears to give the User less control. While, the new pitching system seems to give the User even more control.

Crazy.

[CMH]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

But you'd at least have influence on the pitch type and location. I think if you made a comperable pitching system to a timing only hitting system in which the outcome of the hits was based on stats, you would only execute the pitch. The pitch type and location would be based on stats. You might want to throw an 0-2 fastball inside, but the pitchers stats would determine you should throw an 0-2 slider away.

I think this would be a fair comparison to a hitter who wanted to choke up and slap the ball on the ground through the right side, when the game determines you are going to actually hit a pop up to the first baseman.

In both examples, you execute the act of swinging and pitching and leave the rest up to the games brain.

Ok, good point.

I'll just repeat that I don't think 100% timing is a great system. I just think that timing should still be the biggest factor.

I still want a zone-hitting system that does more than what The Show is doing. The Show is doing a good job but I think High Heat did it better.

Man, High Heat even had a simulation slider (weigh how much of a swing was determined by User input vs. AI Ratings) That was a great idea.

[maverick3176]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

ok....its not just about missing the pitch all together. If its just timed hitting then what determines if you are jammed or hit the ball off the end of the bat. Timed only just lacks depth

In the Show...you guess zone, but its actually blind cursor, true aim or 360 zone hitting. The problem with 2K4 version was that you could pull a ball on the outside as easy as you could a pitch on the inside....the Show doesnt allow for that.

I have used this example a million times...but Rivera throws the same pitch with the same speed almost all the time...if its not the same pitch...its the same speed. He pretty much only changes locatoin and movement. Now if its timed only, then what determines if a ball is hit,missed or jammed. it should be determined by where i swing...not the timing or the ratings...

[Trevytrev11]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

Ok, good point.

I'll just repeat that I don't think 100% timing is a great system. I just think that timing should still be the biggest factor.

I still want a zone-hitting system that does more than what The Show is doing. The Show is doing a good job but I think High Heat did it better.

Man, High Heat even had a simulation slider (weigh how much of a swing was determined by User input vs. AI Ratings) That was a great idea.

Yeah, I agreee...sadly each system (timing, zone, cursor) all have holes/flaws and will always take away something from the user (whether it'd be control or feel for the game of baseball).

[Trevytrev11]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

ok....its not just about missing the pitch all together. If its just timed hitting then what determines if you are jammed or hit the ball off the end of the bat. Timed only just lacks depth

In the Show...you guess zone, but its actually blind cursor, true aim or 360 zone hitting. The problem with 2K4 version was that you could pull a ball on the outside as easy as you could a pitch on the inside....the Show doesnt allow for that.

I have used this example a million times...but Rivera throws the same pitch with the same speed almost all the time...if its not the same pitch...its the same speed. He pretty much only changes locatoin and movement. Now if its timed only, then what determines if a ball is hit,missed or jammed. it should be determined by where i swing...not the timing or the ratings...

I agree that this is the biggest flaw in the system. I'm not for it either, but to play devils advocate:

In a basketball game, what determines if you make or miss an open jumper? You can time your release perfect and still miss. In football, what determines whether you hit your receiver or over throw him. He can be wide open, you can lead him as best you can and still miss.

These are slightly different because it would be much more difficult to come up with a system where the user actually controls whether the ball goes through the hoop, but ther have been systems to determine the quality of contact.

[CMH]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

ok....its not just about missing the pitch all together. If its just timed hitting then what determines if you are jammed or hit the ball off the end of the bat. Timed only just lacks depth

In the Show...you guess zone, but its actually blind cursor, true aim or 360 zone hitting. The problem with 2K4 version was that you could pull a ball on the outside as easy as you could a pitch on the inside....the Show doesnt allow for that.

I have used this example a million times...but Rivera throws the same pitch with the same speed almost all the time...if its not the same pitch...its the same speed. He pretty much only changes locatoin and movement. Now if its timed only, then what determines if a ball is hit,missed or jammed. it should be determined by where i swing...not the timing or the ratings...

I'm not trying to argue with you. Just typing what I think.

How do you think you'd attack a cutter?

Me? I think I would be more successful by swinging earlier. To me, if the cutter is going as fast as the fastball then it's not about where I put my swing, especially since in my opinion the cutter is only off by a few inches from a fastball. There isn't much you can do to alter your swing.

Now if you swing earlier then you have a better chance of making solid contact.

When you consider all of the homeruns lefties have hit off of Rivera, they are pulled. Probably because they swing earlier to attack his cutter. And when they swing earlier, the cutter actually cuts into the sweet spot rather than jamming them. Righties on the other hand, usually punch Rivera's pitches to the outside - that's why he now has a two-seamer to counter that.

Now, I don't know how this will be reflected in MLB2k8. I would think that if the cutter is just as fast as the fastball then you'll end up swinging at a pitch that's too inside. Isn't a good cutter one that moves too far in to the hands and out of the strikezone? So, if you swing at it thinking it's a fastball, you will get jammed. At least, that's how I think it'll work. I could be wrong.

[Trevytrev11]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

I'm not trying to argue with you. Just typing what I think.

How do you think you'd attack a cutter?

Me? I think I would be more successful by swinging earlier. To me, if the cutter is going as fast as the fastball then it's not about where I put my swing, especially since in my opinion the cutter is only off by a few inches from a fastball. There isn't much you can do to alter your swing.

Now if you swing earlier then you have a better chance of making solid contact.

When you consider all of the homeruns lefties have hit off of Rivera, they are pulled. Probably because they swing earlier to attack his cutter. And when they swing earlier, the cutter actually cuts into the sweet spot rather than jamming them. Righties on the other hand, usually punch Rivera's pitches to the outside - that's why he now has a two-seamer to counter that.

Now, I don't know how this will be reflected in MLB2k8. I would think that if the cutter is just as fast as the fastball then you'll end up swinging at a pitch that's too inside. Isn't a good cutter one that moves too far in to the hands and out of the strikezone? So, if you swing at it thinking it's a fastball, you will get jammed. At least, that's how I think it'll work. I could be wrong.

If the cutter and fastball are going the same speed, you'd want to swing at the same time. If you swung earlier on the cutter, you would swing and miss before the pitch got there. In reality, to hit the cutter, you're hope is to pull your hands in so that you can actually get the fat part of the bat on the ball. He's trying to bury it in so that if you do make solid contact, you pull it fould. You're hoping he keeps it out over the plate so that you can keep it fair.

[phillyfan23]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

The point however is that if the timing system is done right, what's wrong with it?

MVP was timing only and the only reason why it's hitting system might have sucked was because it also allowed for people to influence hits into the air and ground. So people just pressed up and in and waited inside fastball.

I recall people complaining about a lot of strikeouts when playing MVP. Now all of a sudden everyone is a hitting genie on MVP? Yea.

if timing is done right 100 percent, it's STILL not a complete hitting system. that's what's wrong. As long as u can time a curveball, ull be able to hit it. THat's not fun for me nor realistic. I wanna time it right and locate it, so when I do get a hit, it feels more rewarding.

[gamerk2]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

if timing is done right 100 percent, it's STILL not a complete hitting system. that's what's wrong. As long as u can time a curveball, ull be able to hit it. THat's not fun for me nor realistic. I wanna time it right and locate it, so when I do get a hit, it feels more rewarding.

As opposed to hitting a curveball below your knees with a weak hitter out of the ballpark because you located it right? Thats why ASB 2001 was the last baseball game i played prior to MVP 05, and the only issue i had with that was how easy it was to locate a pitch! (Perfect game with Danny Graves filling in as a starter...)

I personally would favor a system that is mostly timing, but the left stick would be used to "aim" for one of the 9 sections of the plate (top, bottom, inside, outside, the four corners, and center), but with no targeting curser.

For example if a pitch curves down and away, and i was aiming toward the top half of the plate, I miss. If i aim away, but not down and away, maybe I hit it off the end of the bat, maybe I miss. This would be determined by timing and ratings. Same if i only aim low. Even if i aim down and away, i can still only expect a ground ball, as MOST people can't do anything else with the pitch (again, timing and ratings).

[bakesalee]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

Wow, I'm glad to see that many people feel the same way as I do. This is the biggest factor in my decision to stop supporting Sega/2k baseball after six straight purchases.

I have been trained a certain way over the years how to play, and the rug has been pulled away from me. I know this may sound whiny or ridiculous to some of you, but back in my 2k hayday, I was fighting for the #1 spot in legend mode, and it was highly rewarding. Now that my opponent has to do less to beat me, the edge is wearing away. I dealt with it and bought 2k's baseball the next few years anyway, but I won't anymore.

I hope to some day have as much fun AND have a rewarding video baseball experience as I had in 2002's Home Run King, World Series Baseball 2k3-4.

[phillyfan23]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

As opposed to hitting a curveball below your knees with a weak hitter out of the ballpark because you located it right? Thats why ASB 2001 was the last baseball game i played prior to MVP 05, and the only issue i had with that was how easy it was to locate a pitch! (Perfect game with Danny Graves filling in as a starter...)

I).

no, that's not the case at all. Doesn't mean that if i time and locate the pitch right I'll get positive results. What it improves is my chance of making CONTACT with the ball. TIming and locating an inside pitch in the strike zone should be different than timing and locating a curve under the knees. I'm not saying that if a player times and locates a pitch it's a guaranteed hit. That's ********.....But i'm saying is it will greatly improve the chance of CONTACT


so yes, if I have a weak hitter up ala wes helms for example, i get a curve ball under the knees and I time and locate it right....I should be getting a foul ball a weak grounder, but the percentage of getting hit in that scenario should be very very small.

If the hitter is chase utley, the percentage of getting a hit in that scenario should STILL be small, although slightly larger than wes helms.

So in this system ratings still matter in determining the outcome of a batter/pitcher battle.

[baa7]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

I hope to some day have as much fun AND have a rewarding video baseball experience as I had in 2002's Home Run King, World Series Baseball 2k3-4.

In fairness, the swing stick along with its influence sliders could provide a different type of rewarding hitting experience. That is, providing the system has been properly tweaked as it wasn't programmed very well at all last year. It's not the same as cursor or zone ala 2K4 of course, but it's definitely something you want to try out.

As for button pushing, I don't see how anyone who played 2K4 would enjoy button hitting in 2K7/2K8. It's not realistic, nor is it innovative and rewarding enough to get excited about on that level at least.

[davewins]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

if timing is done right 100 percent, it's STILL not a complete hitting system. that's what's wrong. As long as u can time a curveball, ull be able to hit it. THat's not fun for me nor realistic. I wanna time it right and locate it, so when I do get a hit, it feels more rewarding.

As in last year’s game, the batter has a ‘batter’s eye’ circle about the diameter of three baseballs. The batter must direct this circle with the left analog stick during his swing in order to make proper contact with the ball. Aiming too low will result in pop flys and too high will result in ground balls; all pretty much what you would expect.

That is from http://www.sportsgamer.com/content/1439

Who knows how well implemented this is?? Who knows how the results are going to be??

All I can say is that we have to wait and try it. Sure we can have our speculations and they all are very good ones but ultimately once we try it we will know for ourselves how it "feels".

It seems like 2k is going the approach of good pitching shuts down good hitting so they are almost making great pitches unhittable which in my opinion is great. Sometimes no matter how good your timing and "bat placement" are it shouldn't matter. Good pitching shuts down good hitting it always has and always will.

I'm not in favor of a timing only swing at all. I want to be able to aim the left analog stick in the general direction or at least like in MVP 06 load and fire swing towards the pitch. MVP 06 and 07 had a great zone hitting option imo and it produced accurate results.

If they do stick with just timing then they have to make some aspect of the game tougher like increasing the timing window ten fold so that your timing has to be near perfect and every frame that you are off is going to matter big time. Or make it so that your swing motion with the stick is very sensitive. You have to really put on a "good swing" with the stick to hit the ball hard with that PERFECT timing. Something like how smooth you load back and fire forward and how fast you fire forward has an impact on the quality of your swing and how fast you swing.

[bakesalee]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

There's nothing realistic about using a game pad in comparison with hitting a baseball regardless of it's pushing a button or pushing a thumbstick. If pushing a stick is innovation, then I don't know. When I talked about a rewarding experience, I'm talking about fooling a hitter with breaking pitches, and things like that, where I'm fooling my opponent online with location specifically. If my opponent no longer has to locate the pitch, then it becomes too easy, and the seperation of skill between me who's played the game since 2002 and someone who's just picked it up ceases to exist.

As for button pushing, I don't see how anyone who played 2K4 would enjoy button hitting in 2K7/2K8. It's not realistic, nor is it innovative and rewarding enough to get excited about on that level at least.

[baa7]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

There's nothing realistic about using a game pad in comparison with hitting a baseball regardless of it's pushing a button or pushing a thumbstick. If pushing a stick is innovation, then I don't know. When I talked about a rewarding experience, I'm talking about fooling a hitter with breaking pitches, and things like that, where I'm fooling my opponent online with location specifically. If my opponent no longer has to locate the pitch, then it becomes too easy, and the seperation of skill between me who's played the game since 2002 and someone who's just picked it up ceases to exist.

I can't argue with you about most of that, because I feel the exact same way. But I thought you were talking about hitting, not pitching.

The swing stick itself is innovative. With the sliders working, you have to then step into the pitch at the right time. There is a definite skill element in it that is not in button hitting. It's different type of skill element than zone or cursor hitting, yes.