Who's your nl mvp

[ZM Punk]

Re: Who's your nl mvp

Not helping the argument? I mean I have pretty much layed it out on the table. Jones is leading in Home Runs and RBI's but if you take that into consideration you also have to take into consideration runs scored which is Pujols is ahead. Plus Pujols is leading in .OBP, .OPS, batting average, average with runners in scoring position, heck he even has 11 more steals than Andruw Jones. I think that more than makes up for the edge in Defense Jones has.

[SportsTop]

Re: Who's your nl mvp

Not helping the argument? I mean I have pretty much layed it out on the table. Jones is leading in Home Runs and RBI's but if you take that into consideration you also have to take into consideration runs scored which is Pujols is ahead. Plus Pujols is leading in .OBP, .OPS, batting average, average with runners in scoring position, heck he even has 11 more steals than Andruw Jones. I think that more than makes up for the edge in Defense Jones has.

Pujols can lead in every stat you decide to make up, but that still doesn't mean he is the MVP. It's a simple question: Where would the Braves be without Andruw Jones and where would the Cardinals be without Albert Pujols.

Case in point, see the 1991 MVP vote. Barry Bonds dominated every single offensive category except batting average, yet Terry Pendleton still won. It isn't all about stats.

[ZM Punk]

Re: Who's your nl mvp

Has Jones really been as important as Pujols has been this season. Just look at the facts even though I doubt it will change your opinion. Jones has had both had Francouer and Chipper Jones playing with him, both who have been better than Jim Edmonds. Also what is the cutoff when determining how many games your up on your division that you cannot be the MVP. The Giants were up in their division by 15 and a half games when Bonds was named MVP. The A's were up by 18 games when Rickey Henderson was named MVP in 1990. So your basically saying that just because the Cards are up by so much that he just can't be the MVP well if he can't win it what does that say about Bonds and Henderson.

NL Runs Created Above Average
D. Lee 84
A. Pujols 76
M. Cabrera 53
J. Bay 47
B. Giles 45
C. Delgado 36
B. Abreu 36
A. Dunn 34
M. Ensberg 34
J. Kent 32
D. Wright 32

NL OBP Leaders
A. Pujols .434
T. Helton .432
B. Giles .424
D. Lee .422
B. Abreu .415
N. Johnson .405
L. Berkman .405
J. Bay .395
D. Wright .393
C. Delgado .392

Anybody missing from that list that you can think of? If jones is so valuable why is he not creating more runs for his team. Because his team does not score as many runs than the cardinals well thats true but not by much.
Cardinals Runs Per Game- 4.96
Braves Runs Per Game- 4.80

Atlanta Team Leaders
BA- M. Giles .302
HR- A. Jones 49
RBI- A. Jones 121
R- M. Giles 93
SB- R. Furcal 39
OPS- A. Jones .950

St. Louis Team Leaders
BA- A. Pujols .337
HR- A. Pujols 39
RBI- A. Pujols 110
R- A. Pujols 119
SB- A. Pujols 15
OPS- A. Pujols 1.063

That should pretty much tell the story to who is more valueble to their team right there thats pretty much my whole argument. Just because your team is winning their division by a whole lot of games you can't hold that against that against the player.

[SportsTop]

Re: Who's your nl mvp

You simply just don't get it, do you?

[TheMatrix31]

Re: Who's your nl mvp

Look....the bottom line is.....

Without Andruw Jones.....the Braves would have probably packed it up by July.

Without Albert Pujols.......the Cardinals would still be battling AT LEAST for a Wild Card. Guys like Rolen, Edmonds, Walker, Sanders, Carpenter and Mulder arent slouches to say the least.

Andruw is the MVP.

[VTek33]

Re: Who's your nl mvp

It's come to my attention that people are digging and thinking WAY to hard about this.

Not even the votters go this far.

[SportsTop]

Re: Who's your nl mvp

Jones has had both had Francouer and Chipper Jones playing with him, both who have been better than Jim Edmonds.

Are you talking about the same Francouer that has played in a grand total of 54 games and 194 ABs? And the same Chipper Jones that has missed nearly 50 games due to injury?

Give me a break.

[BigRed]

Re: Who's your nl mvp

Look....the bottom line is.....

Without Andruw Jones.....the Braves would have probably packed it up by July.

Without Albert Pujols.......the Cardinals would still be battling AT LEAST for a Wild Card. Guys like Rolen, Edmonds, Walker, Sanders, Carpenter and Mulder arent slouches to say the least.

Andruw is the MVP.

Are you talking about the same Scott Rolen who has played in a whopping 56 games and has hit an astounding .235 with 5 home runs and 28 rbi? And the same Jim Edmonds who is hitting .259? And the same Larry Walker who has played in 88 games and has hit .273 with 13 home runs and 44 rbi? And the same Reggie Sanders who has played in 79 games and has hit .278 with 18 home runs and 44 rbi?

Is that the vaulted St. Louis Cardinals lineup you're talking about? Or is it the lineup that includes Yadier Molina, Abraham Nunez, So Taguchi, Hector Luna, John Mabry, John Rodriguez, Einar Diaz, Mike Mahoney, Scott Seabol and Skip Schumaker on a nightly basis?

See, that's the problem. Too many people discredit Pujols because he's surrounded by such great hitters like Edmonds, Rolen, Walker and Sanders. But (save for a .259 hitting Jim Edmonds) those guys haven't been in the lineup.

Instead, Pujols has had Pirate castoff Abraham O. Nunez or career minor leaguer John Rodriquez (8 years in the minors!) setting the table for him. And the protection of either Jim Edmonds (and his .259 batting average), Yadier Molina, John Mabry, Mark Grudzielanek, and even the 5'10", 165 pound So Taguchi hitting in the 4 spot as protection.

[VTek33]

Re: Who's your nl mvp

Has Mark Mulder been hurt?
Has Jeff Suppan been hurt?
Has Jason Marquis been hurt?
Has Chris Carpenter been hurt?
Has Matt Morris been hurt?
No.

Now...

Has Tim Hudson been hurt?
Has John Thompson been hurt?
Has Mike Hampton been hurt?
Yes.

Now think...

So don't give me this crap about how the Cardinals have been "playing with a weak line-up." Look at their pitching staff for **** sakes. Pitching wins.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: Who's your nl mvp

Yeah, I mean, maybe the Cardinals lineup isnt playing so hot, but at least you guys dont have rookies flooding the scene. Francoeur, McCann, Johnson, Langerhans, Davies, and the list goes on and on. Add to the fact that the Braves have absolutely NO bullpen, and there you have it. Andruw Jones has constantly been in the position to prove his value to the team and he has proven it over and over again.

[SportsTop]

Re: Who's your nl mvp

Are you talking about the same Scott Rolen who has played in a whopping 56 games and has hit an astounding .235 with 5 home runs and 28 rbi? And the same Jim Edmonds who is hitting .259? And the same Larry Walker who has played in 88 games and has hit .273 with 13 home runs and 44 rbi? And the same Reggie Sanders who has played in 79 games and has hit .278 with 18 home runs and 44 rbi?

Is that the vaulted St. Louis Cardinals lineup you're talking about? Or is it the lineup that includes Yadier Molina, Abraham Nunez, So Taguchi, Hector Luna, John Mabry, John Rodriguez, Einar Diaz, Mike Mahoney, Scott Seabol and Skip Schumaker on a nightly basis?

Jim Edmonds and his 26 HRs, 80 RBI, and .386 OBP are still higher than anyone else on the Braves (except Chipper Jones who has missed nearly 50 games).

Ditto for Reggie Sanders 18 HRs.

You are so eager to bring up stats, stats, stats, yet you conveniently overlook the other factors that make up an MVP.

[dkgojackets]

Re: Who's your nl mvp

Pitching wins.

So why has the big deal been protection in the lineup for stats? And why has the spot starters for the Braves, which has been really solid, not been mentioned? You are killing your own argument here, saying that its Andruw that wins, and now pitching.

Matrix I would like to see that list go "on and on" because I think you mentioned everyone with any half-important role.

Wow for some reason Im starting to care less and less about this, never not enough to post though

[VTek33]

Re: Who's your nl mvp

So why has the big deal been protection in the lineup for stats? And why has the spot starters for the Braves, which has been really solid, not been mentioned? You are killing your own argument here, saying that its Andruw that wins, and now pitching.

I was making a seperate point. I'm tired of people saying the Cardinals have had a weak line-up, so I brought that up.

One has nothing to do with the other.

[SportsTop]

Re: Who's your nl mvp

Matrix I would like to see that list go "on and on" because I think you mentioned everyone with any half-important role.

In case you didn't realize, everyone he listed has been a starter (give or take a few days off and Davies) for the better part of the season since the All-Star break. He isn't listing part-time players, these are guys that have been in the line-up every day.

[dkgojackets]

Re: Who's your nl mvp

I did realize that, which is why I wanted him to go "on and on", since I didnt think there really was anyone else