Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

[bjf1377]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

lol, did you just use Gold Gloves as an argument? I think you did.

- Tulowitzki had 11 errors last season. Vizquel has had 12 full seasons with 11 errors or less.
- Tulowitzki has a .986 Fielding Percentage through 2 seasons. Vizquel has a .984 F% in 19 seasons, including a .986 at the age of 40, and multiple seasons w/ a F% above .990
- And Vizquel won a large number of his Golden Gloves while going against the likes of ARod, Jeter, and Nomar, so I'd hardly consider it to be a matter of a popularity contest when he won.

[dkgojackets]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

Care to point out where I discounted Tulowitzki defensively?

When you said

The difference isn't much defensively between the two players

referring to Tulowitzki and Greene.

[BatsareBugs]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

When you said

referring to Tulowitzki and Greene.

Because it isn't. But I'll let you believe what you want. But remember that my original post I did say Tulowitzki was better than Greene defensively, but the difference isn't as big as you, the media, or stats makes it out to be. Go ahead and point out TC, is it Khalil's fault that his pitchers are more K/fly ball ptichers? FPCT is a difference of .003, but of course you'll point out Fielding Run Differential since you want to make it a point that you think Tulowitzki is galaxies ahead of Greene when in reality the difference is much closer than what you think.

[dkgojackets]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

- Tulowitzki had 11 errors last season. Vizquel has had 12 full seasons with 11 errors or less.
- Tulowitzki has a .986 Fielding Percentage through 2 seasons. Vizquel has a .984 F% in 19 seasons, including a .986 at the age of 40, and multiple seasons w/ a F% above .990
- And Vizquel won a large number of his Golden Gloves while going against the likes of ARod, Jeter, and Nomar, so I'd hardly consider it to be a matter of a popularity contest when he won.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/vizquom01.php

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/tulowtr01.php

Tulowitzki had a FRAA of 30 last season. Vizquel's highest ever was 27. People need to stop looking just at errors and fielding percentage and realize how many balls TT plays out of the usual shortstop zone.

[dkgojackets]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

FPCT is a difference of .003, but of course you'll point out Fielding Run Differential

Just as how I'm more likely to point out OPS+ or VORP instead of batting average when evaluating hitters.

[snepp]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

So Khalil Greene sucks at defense? WOW, let's just point out ONE FREAKIN' STAT and call it a day. What's next, you're going to bring up VORP?

I'm sorry if I'm not like you and I'm not buying into the Tulowitzki hype, since I see him as a Coors Field Product who IMO is no better than 8th in the league overall out of other SS, his FPCT was only .003 % off and they both committed the same number of errors. They're both great defensively, but just because there's a big difference in one stat makes one player inferior to the other. Oh my!

Highly amusing.

VORP doesn't take defense into account. I realize you were being facetious, but that comment sounded incredibly ridiculous.

You whine about him bringing up one stat, then turn around and do it yourself, but instead choose what is arguably the most useless defensive stat in existence (fpct).

[BatsareBugs]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/vizquom01.php

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/tulowtr01.php

Tulowitzki had a FRAA of 30 last season. Vizquel's highest ever was 27. People need to stop looking just at errors and fielding percentage and realize how many balls TT plays out of the usual shortstop zone.

Khalil does that too. That's nothing innovative on Tulowitzki's part. He's not the only shortstop doing that stuff in the league.

Don't point out FRAA because I've seen Khalil first hand getting to balls that he had no business getting to as well.

[snepp]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

Yeah, don't bother pointing out factual evidence when you've got a perfectly good subjective and obviously unbiased eyewitness account that's guaranteed to be perfectly accurate.

/sarcasm

[dkgojackets]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

Khalil does that too. That's nothing innovative on Tulowitzki's part. He's not the only shortstop doing that stuff in the league.

Don't point out FRAA because I've seen Khalil first hand getting to balls that he had no business getting to as well.

Greene does get to balls out of zone, recording 28 fewer outs in 21 more innings than Tulowitzki did out of zone to be exact.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=fielding&linesToDisplay=50&orderBy=outs_out_of_zone&direction=DESC&qual_filter=1&season_filter%5B%5D=2007&league_filter%5B%5D=All&pos_filter%5B%5D=6&Submit=Submit

[snepp]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

Plus/Minus leans heavily in favor of Tulowitzki as well.

http://www.billjamesonline.net/fieldingbible/2007-plus-minus-leaders.asp

[BatsareBugs]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

Highly amusing.

VORP doesn't take defense into account. I realize you were being facetious, but that comment sounded incredibly ridiculous.

You whine about him bringing up one stat, then turn around and do it yourself, but instead choose what is arguably the most useless defensive stat in existence (fpct).

Welcome snepp. I'm glad you find it amusing.

I know that VORP doesn't include defense, but all dkgo has been doing is pointing out whatever statistic Tulowitzki's numbers were far better than Greene's and making that his claim to Tulowitzki's false superiority. Put the other numbers next to each other and watch them both play, and you'll find both of them similar with only a couple of differences.

Have a good day, and I hope you don't ever whine about someone bringing up one stat and you doing it yourself in the future bud.

[dkgojackets]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

Plus/Minus leans heavily in favor of Tulowitzki as well.

http://www.billjamesonline.net/field...us-leaders.asp

Plus/Minus is good in terms of ranking players and looking at the top, but it gets a little ridiculous at the bottom. No one costs their team 25+ runs.

[dkgojackets]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

but all dkgo has been doing is pointing out whatever statistic Tulowitzki's numbers were far better than Greene's and making that his claim to Tulowitzki's false superiority.

When you have a bunch a statistics where one player has far better numbers, claims of superiority tend to be less and less false.

[snepp]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

Plus/Minus is good in terms of ranking players and looking at the top, but it gets a little ridiculous at the bottom. No one costs their team 25+ runs.

The tally isn't in runs, it's more of an arbitrary figure.

A player gets credit (a "plus" number) if he makes a play that at least one other player at his position missed during the season, and he loses credit (a "minus" number) if he misses a play that at least one player made. The size of the credit is directly related to how often players make the play. Each play is looked at individually, and a score is given for each play.

I don't like to use Plus/Minus as a primary defensive metric, but it works well in support of others.

[BatsareBugs]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

When you have a bunch a statistics where one player has far better numbers, claims of superiority tend to be less and less false.

I guess that's where you and I differ. I consider both similar, solid offensively, great defensively despite statistics. Defensively, if you ever get to see both of them, you'll be impressed with what they do at times. Offensively, I would like to see Khalil walk a bit more (it's been that way for a couple of years) and I'd like to see Tulowitzki narrow that gap between his home/road splits. Aside from their on base abilities and their power, I think both are similar offensively. Tulowitzki may be faster because it's not easy to run in Coors I believe.