Waiver claim placed on Alex Rios

[flamangatang2k5]

Re: Waiver claim placed on Alex Rios

As a Whitesox fan I thought this would be a good deal. Seems like everyone here is making it out to be a bad move. I can't see how. The sox have Dye, Kotsay, Posednik, Quentin, Rios (Wise will probably be sent to AAA's). That's a speed and power line-up. Perfect fit for what the sox are trying to do. If we lose Dye, Pods, and Thome in this off-season then we got replacements right behind them. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o></o>
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[steelcurtain311]

Re: Waiver claim placed on Alex Rios

His averages have plummeted the last couple years. He's gone from a .297/.354/.498 line to a .264/.317/.427 line. His OPS+ is below average right now, sitting at 94. He ranks 22nd among RFers this year with 1.1 WAR.

So yes, he is borderline awful and there is a giant crop of right fielders who are better. The White Sox are idiots for picking up his contract.

WAR? lol please don't throw these silly internet stats out at me. I don't take them seriously at all. While you can crap on other traditional baseball stats for not being an in depth enough window into how good a player is, this crap like WAR is just silly. I don't take it seriously, since these stats basically say that 95% of the MLB are bad players.

When I look at Rios, I don't see a guy who's that bad. He's a guy who can hit a little bit, who can steal bases, who can play solid defense. While he's dropped off a bit recently, he's still young enough to where he can bounce back, and if he does he's going to be a great asset. His contract is hardly bad enough to where it's going to kill your franchise or something. Since when the hell is not even 10 million dollars a season horrible? The Pirates have paid that for each season of Jack Wilson for the past few seasons, and he's one of the worst offensive players I've ever seen.

If you seriously think there's 21 better Right Fielders out there than Alex Rios, I'd say you're freaking insane, and it goes to show you how seriously you should take something like WAR.

[Ruffy]

Re: Waiver claim placed on Alex Rios

Some numbers on Rios from Benjamin Lerner of ESPN Stats & Information:
<!-- begin table --><TABLE class=tableheadFixWidth cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 width=290 border=0><TBODY><TR class=stathead style="BACKGROUND: #000"><TD colSpan=3>Rios' Tailspin</TD></TR><TR class=colhead vAlign=top><TD></TD><TD>2009</TD><TD>2008</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD>Ahead in count</TD><TD>.257</TD><TD>.372</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow vAlign=top><TD>Vs. Curve</TD><TD>.200</TD><TD>.304</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD>Vs. Pitches up</TD><TD>.256</TD><TD>.327</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow vAlign=top><TD>Vs. Offspeed up</TD><TD>.208</TD><TD>.400</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- end table -->

I'd be really concerned about these stats...but Toronto I think was more interested in dumping $60 million in owed salary.

But hey Chisox fill a need by putting Rios in CF where they haven't had one for ages. They have injuies in their OF and Rios can definately help them in the playoff race.

Is he bad? Nah but he's not great...Toronto still has Halladay under contract and the only way they can keep him would be to spend some money this off season and compete in 2010 as they stated at the start of this year.

They have tons of pitching now....probably the only good thing during JP's era....although I really think he just lucked out alot. His decision on every day players have been terrible.

The Jays need HITTING period! I just don't really see who'd they pick up this offseason. Overbay needs to go...his bat is terrible, in the AL your 1B and DH need to mash and the jays have neither. The rest of the lineup is decent besides 3B. The OF should be decent next season. Wells once looked to be a .300 30 100 guy but now i think hes pretty much a .260 25 80 type.

The real question is who will be the Jays prez and then who will the new prez hire for GM. No way JP comes back.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: Waiver claim placed on Alex Rios

See, looking at something like that I just think you have a guy who isn't all there mentally right now. When your average drops over 100 points against the curveball, it's usually a mental thing, which leads to mechanical problems with your swing. You don't suddenly forget how to hit a curveball in your late 20's.

[SPTO]

Re: Waiver claim placed on Alex Rios

They have tons of pitching now....probably the only good thing during JP's era....although I really think he just lucked out alot. His decision on every day players have been terrible.

The Jays need HITTING period! I just don't really see who'd they pick up this offseason. Overbay needs to go...his bat is terrible, in the AL your 1B and DH need to mash and the jays have neither. The rest of the lineup is decent besides 3B. The OF should be decent next season. Wells once looked to be a .300 30 100 guy but now i think hes pretty much a .260 25 80 type.

The real question is who will be the Jays prez and then who will the new prez hire for GM. No way JP comes back.

I hate JP as much as the next guy but let's give him credit for getting Scutaro for basically nothing and the Rolen deal was overall a winner for the Jays as well. Hill, Lind and Snider were JP's draft picks. So he was atrocious in a lot of areas he did luck out with the pitching and some of his draft picks have turned out well.

The Jays have hitting coming down the pipe with a guy who's currently playing 1B in Triple A (I forget his name) who's projected to be a power hitter in the big leagues but one who is not too pull happy. He's a work in progress at 1B so I imagine he'll start his career as a DH/part time 1B. There's also JP arencebia (sp?) who's a really good defensive catcher who the Jays hope would make some strides with the bat but he's taken a step or two back offensively. In his defense though he's hitting for a lot of power but the strikeouts and low average is a slight concern right now.

So it's not like the Jays don't have any good young hitting prospects coming up. I think the most pressing need is 3B and 1B. SS will be a huge hole to fill if Scutaro opts to take a big money contract (and you know some GM will be stupid enough to overpay.) At least on the positive side JP's reign of error will likely end after this season.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: Waiver claim placed on Alex Rios

Eh, it's not exactly easy if you're management on the Jays, O's, or even Rays. The Rays are a great baseball team this year with tons of awesome talent, but they're struggling hard to even make second place, since they can't compete with a payroll.

Guys like Riccardi may make some mistakes, but one mistake from a guy like him has devastating consequences in a division like the AL East, while for most teams there's a lot more room for error.

The only giant miss I see from him is the Vernon Wells contract. That one is still a mindboggle.

[Ewing]

Re: Waiver claim placed on Alex Rios

WAR? lol please don't throw these silly internet stats out at me. I don't take them seriously at all. While you can crap on other traditional baseball stats for not being an in depth enough window into how good a player is, this crap like WAR is just silly. I don't take it seriously, since these stats basically say that 95% of the MLB are bad players.

When I look at Rios, I don't see a guy who's that bad. He's a guy who can hit a little bit, who can steal bases, who can play solid defense. While he's dropped off a bit recently, he's still young enough to where he can bounce back, and if he does he's going to be a great asset. His contract is hardly bad enough to where it's going to kill your franchise or something. Since when the hell is not even 10 million dollars a season horrible? The Pirates have paid that for each season of Jack Wilson for the past few seasons, and he's one of the worst offensive players I've ever seen.

If you seriously think there's 21 better Right Fielders out there than Alex Rios, I'd say you're freaking insane, and it goes to show you how seriously you should take something like WAR.

[NYJets]

Re: Waiver claim placed on Alex Rios

White Sox should have just kept Swisher instead of dumping him for nothing.

[snepp]

Re: Waiver claim placed on Alex Rios

WAR? lol please don't throw these silly internet stats out at me. I don't take them seriously at all. While you can crap on other traditional baseball stats for not being an in depth enough window into how good a player is, this crap like WAR is just silly. I don't take it seriously, since these stats basically say that 95% of the MLB are bad players.

The world is flat.

[snepp]

Re: Waiver claim placed on Alex Rios

I like this move for the Sox. If the Twins didn't have the budget constraints they do I would have been all for bringing him in for nothing.

Rios' walk, strikeout, line drive, and home run rates are all largely unchanged over previous seasons. The primary difference is a big drop in his BABIP, which if/when it returns to expected levels will take care of his perceived drop in offensive production.

[rsox]

Re: Waiver claim placed on Alex Rios

The Jays did get something back for Wells; they got money back that they can use on the real talent of the team: Roy Halladay.

Wells wasn't going to help that team be competitive. Halladay can. All along, the Jays have talked about not having the money to keep Halladay. Well, now they have $12 MM to throw at him.

Except we are talking about Alex Rios, not Vernon Wells. Aside from that you are on point though .

[CMH]

Re: Waiver claim placed on Alex Rios

Except we are talking about Alex Rios, not Vernon Wells. Aside from that you are on point though .

D'oh! I meant Rios.


That being said, how many times do the stats have to show that the guy isn't that good before people stop saying, "He's not great, but he's not that bad."

No, he is that bad. Look at the stats. At 28 years old, he's well into the area that he should have shown progression. Stop looking at his body and hearing what people say and look at the stats. They say he's not a good baseball player.

Alex Rios is not a good baseball player.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: Waiver claim placed on Alex Rios

Guys, you're not baseball experts for reading internet geek stats like WAR. Really. It's not do totally dismiss the stats, it really isn't, but you guys try to act like they're religion or something. They aren't. They're just as flawed as any other stat, sometimes even more so. Like now. Name me 20 better RF'ers than Alex Rios so I can laugh you off of this planet. I mean, it's just so absurd to even consider. How many of you have actually sat down and watched Alex Rios play and disected his game on your own? I would bet none of you, you just come online and read what his WAR or whatever dumb stat you see, and then come back and claim he sucks because of it so you can feel like you're on the "inside".

You act like he's 37 years old and entering the downfall of his career. He's had a couple of mediocre seasons, which were still better seasons than the average player. He's not making that much money, maybe a little overpaid, but if he entered free agency this year, he'd probably receive a similar deal from someone. He's not going anywhere to be a franchise player. He's going somewhere to help out, which in a lot of cases like his, can be refreshing. Now he's in a new situation, new team, no real pressure to be "that future guy", this has been known to snap guys out of slumps. It's worth the risk for teams. Like I said, he's not owed much money. If it were like 10 years ago, that would be a ridiculous contract. But considering guys like Barry Zito are making 100 million dollars, or A-Rod getting paid nearly 30 million dollars last season for a lackluster year by his standards, the market is insanely inflated. If a guy like Rios plays as good as he can, you get a freaking steal for 60 million dollars. If he doesn't, oh well, that's not that much money down the drain.

[Coug00]

Re: Waiver claim placed on Alex Rios

Guys, you're not baseball experts for reading internet geek stats like WAR. Really. It's not do totally dismiss the stats, it really isn't, but you guys try to act like they're religion or something. They aren't. They're just as flawed as any other stat, sometimes even more so. Like now. Name me 20 better RF'ers than Alex Rios so I can laugh you off of this planet. I mean, it's just so absurd to even consider. How many of you have actually sat down and watched Alex Rios play and disected his game on your own? I would bet none of you, you just come online and read what his WAR or whatever dumb stat you see, and then come back and claim he sucks because of it so you can feel like you're on the "inside".

Wow.

You act like he's 37 years old and entering the downfall of his career. He's had a couple of mediocre seasons, which were still better seasons than the average player. He's not making that much money, maybe a little overpaid, but if he entered free agency this year, he'd probably receive a similar deal from someone. He's not going anywhere to be a franchise player. He's going somewhere to help out, which in a lot of cases like his, can be refreshing. Now he's in a new situation, new team, no real pressure to be "that future guy", this has been known to snap guys out of slumps. It's worth the risk for teams. Like I said, he's not owed much money. If it were like 10 years ago, that would be a ridiculous contract. But considering guys like Barry Zito are making 100 million dollars, or A-Rod getting paid nearly 30 million dollars last season for a lackluster year by his standards, the market is insanely inflated. If a guy like Rios plays as good as he can, you get a freaking steal for 60 million dollars. If he doesn't, oh well, that's not that much money down the drain.

I think its a good move for both teams. The Jays are cash strapped and they're dumping a guy whose salary is about to double in 2010 and go up to $12.5m in 2011. That's a whole lot of money for a team with an $80m budget. They had to dump him, especially when they have Snider waiting in the wings. Its been expressed in this thread previously, but the key for the Jays is how they use the freed up money going forward. If they play their cards correctly, they can get more value than Rios with $12.5 million a year.

The Sox have a larger budget and have a lot of money coming off the books this offseason. If it works and he returns to form they made a steal. If it doesn't work for them, they can absorb the contract and still be competitive. The Jays don't have the financial wiggle room to absorb that contract and be competitive.

[CMH]

Re: Waiver claim placed on Alex Rios

If a guy like Rios plays as good as he can, you get a freaking steal for 60 million dollars. If he doesn't, oh well, that's not that much money down the drain.

Again, I ask, how long does he play like a below average starter before people stop making the above excuse?

He can "if" all he wants, but right now he isn't anything but below average. And yes, at his contract, he is overpaid especially when more productive bats made much less this past off-season.

I'm not sure I can name 30 guys better than him at RF, but when I get back home from work, I don't mind finding over half that number for you.

edit: Sorry, you said 20. So, do you think he's number 19?