MVP/CY/ROY Talk

[Sportsforever]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

I have read the following statements on several forums/articles and I can't wrap my head around them:

"Trout had the better season overall, but Cabrera was the MVP"

"Trout was/is a better overall player, but Cabrera was more valuable to his team"

Does not compute...

[bkrich83]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

I have read the following statements on several forums/articles and I can't wrap my head around them:

"Trout had the better season overall, but Cabrera was the MVP"

"Trout was/is a better overall player, but Cabrera was more valuable to his team"

Does not compute...

On the MLB forum on the article for the award a Tiger fan actually posted Cabrera was the 2nd best 3rd Basemen and that Trout was the 4th best CF at best. So his argument was that Cabrera was actually a better defender than Trout.

It is what it is at this point.

[gopher_guy]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

"I disagree, therefore it's meaningless"

Riiight.

[thaSLAB]

Ok I've been quiet in these threads for the most part, but:

What it is, is Cabrera is the MVP. It was done by a democratic vote, and the results are as such. There was no coup. No conspiracy. No agenda. Trout had an incredible (for lack of a more grandeur word) season, yes, but you can't discredit something because it doesn't line up with your opinion. Nor does the BWAA suddenly become less relevant... unless you're saying all the 2012 awards voting is wrong. Even still, that's the opinion of a select few.

I consider myself a traditionalist, or even old school, so I don't agree with using sabremetrics to decide traditional awards. Theoretically, you could derive a formula that would argue the case for any decent player, on any team, to be MVP, CY, etc. That t-shirt also kind of pokes fun at that, stating an overall simplicity. And we've all mentioned defense (or lack of some will say in Miggy's case) but no one mentions that this guy made a pretty significant position change, while putting together a great offensive season. There are no numbers attached to leadership or guidance, but IMO (reiterating, just MY opinion) an MVP is someone who adds to the ball club in those ways too.

Anyway, like I said, I'm old-school. That's why, as a Tigers fan, I had no problem with Price winning the CY over Verlander. I was actually surprised that it was that close.


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[seanjeezy]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

Ok I've been quiet in these threads for the most part, but:

What it is, is Cabrera is the MVP. It was done by a democratic vote, and the results are as such. There was no coup. No conspiracy. No agenda. Trout had an incredible (for lack of a more grandeur word) season, yes, but you can't discredit something because it doesn't line up with your opinion. Nor does the BWAA suddenly become less relevant... unless you're saying all the 2012 awards voting is wrong. Even still, that's the opinion of a select few.

I consider myself a traditionalist, or even old school, so I don't agree with using sabremetrics to decide traditional awards. Theoretically, you could derive a formula that would argue the case for any decent player, on any team, to be MVP, CY, etc. That t-shirt also kind of pokes fun at that, stating an overall simplicity. And we've all mentioned defense (or lack of some will say in Miggy's case) but no one mentions that this guy made a pretty significant position change, while putting together a great offensive season. There are no numbers attached to leadership or guidance, but IMO (reiterating, just MY opinion) an MVP is someone who adds to the ball club in those ways too.

Anyway, like I said, I'm old-school. That's why, as a Tigers fan, I had no problem with Price winning the CY over Verlander. I was actually surprised that it was that close.


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Its been mentioned several times, but it is hardly relevant though. If Cabrera had volunteered to play SS or CF then color me impressed, but a position that is the most similar to 1st and that he had prior experience with? not so much. Now in his defense, if he was even a remotely average third basemen or if Trout was just an average center fielder then hands down Cabrera would be the MVP IMO, but things didn't shake out that way.

To me Trout is the type of player that you actually have to watch play to see how good he is. Unfortunately for him, scoring from 2nd on a single or tracking down a flyball hit deep in the alley doesn't show up in the box score the next day, so I agree with bk that there is a slight west coast bias. The scouting community (aka the real old school) loves Trout because of what their eyes show them - a real 5-tool player that put together one of the greatest displays of baseball skill in the history of the game. You don't need sabermetrics to tell you that.

[jth1331]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

Like others said, Cabrera did something that hasn't been done in 45 years, Trout has done something that hasn't been done in the history of baseball.
RBI's are a meaningless stat in the grand scheme of things, people used to think they were so vital and important, but the stat isn't.

When I saw Price win the CY, I figured Cabrera would win the MVP. The fact it wasn't close was shocking. I'll say it again, Trout was more valuable to the Angels and had a better season than Cabrera. So tell me why Cabrera should get the MVP ahead of Trout? Because "he deserves it"? Because the Tigers won their crappy division? Because he lead the league in 3 stats?

Going back to Price, that baffles me as well. His ERA was .08 points better than Verlander and he had 3 more wins. That is it. In 2 more starts, Verlander had 30 more strikeouts and a lower WHIP while winning 17 games with 6 complete games.

People want to say this is a "win" for traditional stats, but people need to understand that some of these traditional stats don't really help value a player. Look at Juan Gonzalez, I remember in the '90's thinking he was one of the best players in the game. He was a 2 time MVP winner, hit a ton of homeruns and got a lot of RBI's. However, he didn't really deserve either MVP award, and won primarily because he had the high HR totals with the high RBI totals to go with it.

[SPTO]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

The last time I made comments on the Cabrera thing I got a bit schooled but one thing i'll say is this: What Cabrera did was one of those special milestones in baseball. To say that leading the league in the Triple Crown categories makes one not worthy of winning the MVP is a bit ridiculous. I don't blame BK and some others being emotional about it but it's not like Trout hasn't been rewarded for what he's done. The guy won the ROY fer cryin' out loud! I will say this, if Cabrera didn't win the Triple Crown Trout may very well have won the MVP so it's not like the award was given to someone else just because Trout is a rookie.

In closing, if there was no Triple Crown winner Trout would've won the award and there wouldn't be this gnashing of teeth from Trout supporters. It took a once in a generation type feat to thwart the kid from getting the award. Think about that for a moment and let that sink in.

That's the last i'll say on the subject.

[TeixeiraFanatic]

How does Miggy win it this year and Albert Pujols doesn't win in 2006? Albert's season was better than Cabrera's 2012, he led his team to the playoffs and yet was defeated by Ryan Howard, who had a lesser season, and didn't make the playoffs.

Pujols (2006):
.331/49/137/.431/.671

Miguel Cabrera (2012):
.330/44/139/.393/.606

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[seanjeezy]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

How does Miggy win it this year and Albert Pujols doesn't win in 2006? Albert's season was better than Cabrera's 2012, he led his team to the playoffs and yet was defeated by Ryan Howard, who had a lesser season, and didn't make the playoffs.

Pujols (2006):
.331/49/137/.431/.671

Miguel Cabrera (2012):
.330/44/139/.393/.606

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Obviously its because he didn't win the triple crown lol. Seriously though, the triple crown will only mean something for me if the player goes .440/75HR/200RBI

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

I have read the following statements on several forums/articles and I can't wrap my head around them:

"Trout had the better season overall, but Cabrera was the MVP"

"Trout was/is a better overall player, but Cabrera was more valuable to his team"

Does not compute...

Looking at these quotes, both of them make perfect sense to me

[SoxFan01605]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

Ok I've been quiet in these threads for the most part, but:

What it is, is Cabrera is the MVP. It was done by a democratic vote, and the results are as such. There was no coup. No conspiracy. No agenda. Trout had an incredible (for lack of a more grandeur word) season, yes, but you can't discredit something because it doesn't line up with your opinion. Nor does the BWAA suddenly become less relevant... unless you're saying all the 2012 awards voting is wrong. Even still, that's the opinion of a select few.

I consider myself a traditionalist, or even old school, so I don't agree with using sabremetrics to decide traditional awards. Theoretically, you could derive a formula that would argue the case for any decent player, on any team, to be MVP, CY, etc. That t-shirt also kind of pokes fun at that, stating an overall simplicity. And we've all mentioned defense (or lack of some will say in Miggy's case) but no one mentions that this guy made a pretty significant position change, while putting together a great offensive season. There are no numbers attached to leadership or guidance, but IMO (reiterating, just MY opinion) an MVP is someone who adds to the ball club in those ways too.

Anyway, like I said, I'm old-school. That's why, as a Tigers fan, I had no problem with Price winning the CY over Verlander. I was actually surprised that it was that close.


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Let me start by saying that I agree that the MVP award is subjective (I mean, the BBWAA pretty much says so up front), so, I have no issue with Cabrera winning or if you think he is more deserving. However, I can't say I follow the logic that leads you there:

- Being a "traditionalist" is an odd reason to reject objective data. I'm not saying you need to agree about sabermetrics, but to say they have no place in the process simply out of some nod to tradition seems counter-intuitive. Traditions change. Baseball has changed. At what point in the game's history does your version of "traditional" baseball start? There was a time when "traditional stats" were new too. I'm assuming you are willing to look over some tradition as a Tigers fan considering they utilize the DH, which is certainly not "old school."

-While there's little point in debating the value of sabermetrics here, I will just say that they aren't some randomly thrown together formulas to argue cases for certain players. In fact, many simply offer an objective and quantifiable representation of what scouts have claimed to see for years. I'm not saying they're the end-all-be-all, but I don't understand why people continue to act as though some nerd in a basement is just randomly picking numbers to track either...lol.

- On your last point, I have no issue with leadership or guidance (if demonstrable) being taken into account for MVP, but how exactly would that favor the guy with a DUI and domestic violence on his record?

[gopher_guy]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

Let me start by saying that I agree that the MVP award is subjective (I mean, the BBWAA pretty much says so up front), so, I have no issue with Cabrera winning or if you think he is more deserving. However, I can't say I follow the logic that leads you there

What award isn't subjective???

[jth1331]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

The last time I made comments on the Cabrera thing I got a bit schooled but one thing i'll say is this: What Cabrera did was one of those special milestones in baseball. To say that leading the league in the Triple Crown categories makes one not worthy of winning the MVP is a bit ridiculous. I don't blame BK and some others being emotional about it but it's not like Trout hasn't been rewarded for what he's done. The guy won the ROY fer cryin' out loud! I will say this, if Cabrera didn't win the Triple Crown Trout may very well have won the MVP so it's not like the award was given to someone else just because Trout is a rookie.

In closing, if there was no Triple Crown winner Trout would've won the award and there wouldn't be this gnashing of teeth from Trout supporters. It took a once in a generation type feat to thwart the kid from getting the award. Think about that for a moment and let that sink in.

That's the last i'll say on the subject.

So because Cabrera had 2 more home runs than Josh Hamilton, that makes him the MVP?

[thaSLAB]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

Let me start by saying that I agree that the MVP award is subjective (I mean, the BBWAA pretty much says so up front), so, I have no issue with Cabrera winning or if you think he is more deserving. However, I can't say I follow the logic that leads you there:

- Being a "traditionalist" is an odd reason to reject objective data. I'm not saying you need to agree about sabermetrics, but to say they have no place in the process simply out of some nod to tradition seems counter-intuitive. Traditions change. Baseball has changed. At what point in the game's history does your version of "traditional" baseball start? There was a time when "traditional stats" were new too. I'm assuming you are willing to look over some tradition as a Tigers fan considering they utilize the DH, which is certainly not "old school."

-While there's little point in debating the value of sabermetrics here, I will just say that they aren't some randomly thrown together formulas to argue cases for certain players. In fact, many simply offer an objective and quantifiable representation of what scouts have claimed to see for years. I'm not saying they're the end-all-be-all, but I don't understand why people continue to act as though some nerd in a basement is just randomly picking numbers to track either...lol.

- On your last point, I have no issue with leadership or guidance (if demonstrable) being taken into account for MVP, but how exactly would that favor the guy with a DUI and domestic violence on his record?

Yes, the MVP award (or any award for that matter) is highly subjective. That also means, that no matter how much us as fans go back and forth, petition, what have you, it's not up to us. That's why I reiterated my points as in my opinion, not believing that anyone else or the BWAA should hold my views. And I wouldn't have deemed the award meaningless, had Trout won based off of sabermetrics.

Actually baseball hasn't changed that much, and for the most part traditions have held strong. And as far as how far back as when for traditional awards, I mean as far back as the MVP (early-1910s) award goes, which started out as the Chalmers award and was ironically given to the player with the highest batting average, alone. Although that award was nothing more than an advertising ploy, it still lives on in tradition, as we still give automobiles to MVPs. So does the sabermetrics approach now mean that we need to go back and do a comparison amongst past MVP winners/runner-ups? Maybe they introduce a new WAR award? I don't know lol. FYI, for the record, I dislike the DH rule.

And to the point of leadership, etc. What is done outside of the clubhouse has no bearing on what a player can teach and display to their teammates in the clubhouse, and on the field. I wouldn't vote him role model of the year either. Despite the off-field issues, he didn't let it become a distraction to the team, and he still managed to be well-respected when it came to baseball. On a similar note, I think its a travesty that Pete Rose isn't in the HoF, because baseball-wise IMO he is a Hall of Famer. Ty Cobb, likewise, was not the nicest person but he was a helluva baseball player.

Anyway, with (almost) everyone agreeing that it's all subjective, there is really no need for pleading for one case or the other. The vote is in, 28 different people voted what they deemed correct. That is, unless we are getting a jumpstart on the 2013 awards, or plan to submit a petition of change in selection processes.

[SPTO]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

So because Cabrera had 2 more home runs than Josh Hamilton, that makes him the MVP?

Did Hamilton lead the league in RBI or Average?

Case closed.

(for me at least :P )