MLB Off-Topic

[DamnYanks2]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

I don't understand how you can see how offensive the name is to a group of people, but then decide that the history of the franchise is more important than the way the people who are being exploited feel. Just bizarre to me.

In other news, my boy Chappie on his boat. How cool is this? I wish I could throw flames out of my left arm.

Because it opens a whole can of worms. What if someone decided that Yankees was offensive, and they wanted to rename them, you would be furious, as would I.

Like I said, you change a logo, OK whatever, not too big of a deal, but when you go after a historic team name, that's going too far, and ridiculous.

Should we take Ty Cobb out of the hall because he was a blatant racist, some believe so. Now you might say that's not relevant. But, the problem with political correctness is it never ends.

People just pick and pick, anything that remotely offends them, they want gone, and it's gotten really old.







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[DieHardYankee26]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Because it opens a whole can of worms. What if someone decided that Yankees was offensive, and they wanted to rename them, you would be furious, as would I.

Like I said, you change a logo, OK whatever, not too big of a deal, but when you go after a historic team name, that's going too far, and ridiculous.

Should we take Ty Cobb out of the hall because he was a blatant racist, some believe so. Now you might say that's not relevant. But, the problem with political correctness is it never ends.

People just pick and pick, anything that remotely offends them, they want gone, and it's gotten really old.
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I think the problem with political correctness is that it doesn't exist. We are talking about whether or not the logo is offensive to Native Americans. You believe that it is or could be interpreted that way. The only people making it a slippery slope and bringing in random outside things are the people who claim they don't want it to turn into that. Why do you believe that we can't make one change without a bunch of others? These things have been changed in the past. I believe we are capable of looking at things on a case by case basis, and coming to a decision.

Going after the team name is ridiculous even though you've admitted it is clearly derogatory because... They are a football team and have been around a long time? That I'll just leave alone, I don't know where to start. I'll just say I've seen some caricatures of faces that look like mine used for other people's entertainment throughout history and if I saw a pro sports team making millions off of that image I would be livid.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

I think the problem with political correctness is that it doesn't exist. We are talking about whether or not the logo is offensive to Native Americans. You believe that it is or could be interpreted that way. The only people making it a slippery slope and bringing in random outside things are the people who claim they don't want it to turn into that. Why do you believe that we can't make one change without a bunch of others? These things have been changed in the past. I believe we are capable of looking at things on a case by case basis, and coming to a decision.

Going after the team name is ridiculous even though you've admitted it is clearly derogatory because... They are a football team and have been around a long time? That I'll just leave alone, I don't know where to start. I'll just say I've seen some caricatures of faces that look like mine used for other people's entertainment throughout history and if I saw a pro sports team making millions off of that image I would be livid.

It definitely exists it's all around us, anything that is deemed offensive. Is taken out, hell, Christmas has even been attacked from groups, because it offended them to a degree.

Back on track, my point is what does this change, and where does it ultimately end?

Replace the name Redskins with another, they're still forever the redskins. So it makes a certain group of people feel better, removing the name, but you can't destroy it's history,

And just because a certain group feels a certain way, doesn't mean everyone else does. Not to put him on the spot, but from what I gathered, Sportsforever said that stuff doesn't bother him at all.

So clearly not everyone feels the same way.





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[DieHardYankee26]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

If I was on the side of an argument where one group of people care and the rest really don't, I'd probably try to figure out why people care and then see if it needs to be changed. Bringing up the way people that don't care feel is pointless to me because they don't care. For SF, I respect the way he feels but I would also say that the mentality of "there are so many other things to do" is exactly why nothing gets done. People bring something up, and then the point is so diluted by outside stuff and people worrying about repercussions in completely unrelated instances that we can't focus on the issue at hand. "Why worry about this when this is happening?" Well when they try to bring that up, you'll just bring up something else. People are offended by one team name, let's bring in another team name that no one has a problem with to show the fallacy in this argument. I will just leave it alone and say I feel sorry for those who feel that the logo and names are derogatory and that they are not being heard or respected.

[ProfessaPackMan]

MLB Off-Topic

It changes it for future generations, just because something is old, or will be remembered doesn't mean it shouldn't go away. The Negro Leagues are forever connected with baseball, people seem to be fine with those not existing anymore.





There are way more in column A, most Native Americans I know have a strong dislike for the logo. There is definitely a fair amount in column b as well. Indians isn't as disliked as Redskins, but there's still a strong sentiment against it.





It's probably not so much someone lying awake at night, it's more like someone you see everyday, who constantly makes fun of you, while also making millions of dollars making fun of you





Being real honest, I totally get where you're coming from. I used to feel that way as well. The more I thought about it though, the more it just seems, unnecessary. After all the hate the NBA got for the New Orleans Pelicans, I thought to myself, what if we had never used Native Americans as mascots, how ridiculous would it sound if a team came along and said they wanted to be named the Indians, or the Redskins. The only reason those names are even accepted is because they're old, which isn't a real reason at all. I'm not asking anyone to agree with me, but it makes sense overall.



Plus - As a franchise who sells products, you want your products to be purchased by as many people as possible. No matter how small, if a team like the Tampa Bay Rays can sell more merch by not being the Devil Rays, why not try as an organization to try and make as much money as possible?

Is that true, about the Negro League part?

Serious question btw

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Are you asking if it's true that the Negro Leagues are forever a part of baseball or if people are fine with them not being around anymore?

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Are you asking if it's true that the Negro Leagues are forever a part of baseball or if people are fine with them not being around anymore?

The latter.

My bad for not being more specific. I'm more of a "casual" fan compared to you guys here but I figured that was the one thing most wouldn't forget about.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

The latter.

My bad for not being more specific. I'm more of a "casual" fan compared to you guys here but I figured that was the one thing most wouldn't forget about.

No problem, I just wanted to make sure I knew what you were asking.

Integration killed the Negro Leagues, so people don't have a problem with them being gone. There is a whole other conversation to be had about taking control and money away from those in the community vs going to work for those outside of it but I'm sure you know how that discussion goes. The Negro Leagues had a lot of monetary issues to begin with, with some teams making way more than others and leagues falling apart. Once the best talent had been plucked by the majors, it was a wrap.

There are probably arguments to be made about whether or not there could've been an ABA-NBA style merger, and there were discussions to make the Negro League teams that were still around into minor league teams, but they figured it was counterintuitive to the purpose of integration. A lot of Negro League players were signed to minor league deals and then just shuffled through, never getting a real chance to make the majors. There's a lot of really shady crap that happened afterwards, like MLB teams ignoring contracts guys had signed with their NeL teams but that's "just business". It's a really fascinating part of history I think, seeing how opening the door for the individual basically slammed it shut for the community.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

If I was on the side of an argument where one group of people care and the rest really don't, I'd probably try to figure out why people care and then see if it needs to be changed. Bringing up the way people that don't care feel is pointless to me because they don't care. For SF, I respect the way he feels but I would also say that the mentality of "there are so many other things to do" is exactly why nothing gets done. People bring something up, and then the point is so diluted by outside stuff and people worrying about repercussions in completely unrelated instances that we can't focus on the issue at hand. "Why worry about this when this is happening?" Well when they try to bring that up, you'll just bring up something else. People are offended by one team name, let's bring in another team name that no one has a problem with to show the fallacy in this argument. I will just leave it alone and say I feel sorry for those who feel that the logo and names are derogatory and that they are not being heard or respected.

People do care Diehard, I care. I'm not even a Indians fan, or a redskins fan but yes it would bother me if they changed the name, There is so much history to those franchise's.

People have got to stop trying to destroy history, because it has something they dislike about it, there's alot more to like about the redskins and Indians then hate, I hate to break it to people, but many of the things you like or celebrate have ugly origins. But it's part of history.

And yes it has repercussions, because there is always a push to go further.

The Celtics logo was an example I used, someone could find that derogatory. maybe a certain group of Irish feel that a leprechaun with four leaf clovers doesn't depict the Irish's rich and beautiful history, and it offends them.

This **** never ends, now the Celtics was a hypothetical example, but you get my drift.

There needs to be a balance, not "this offends me, I want it gone now" attitude.







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[DieHardYankee26]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Gotta respect the history of the teams that play in FedEx and Progressive Field... Word.

[Perfect Zero]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Changing the name of the Indians isn't going to make up for such horrors like the Trail of Tears much like changing the name of the Celtics isn't going to take away the sting of "no Irish need apply" or changing the name of the Brewers is going to bring my great grandparents back from the dead at the hands of a drunk driver. What can be done however is much like the Spokane Indians or the Florida State Seminole did. Get with the local band, come up with a way of honoring the tribe, and build a larger team. Getting rid of the name just buries the history; working together helps both communities grow together.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Gotta respect the history of the teams that play in FedEx and Progressive Field... Word.

Exactly, and nobody ever calls those stadiums those ridiculous names. Progressive field is forever Jacob's field, or "The Jake"

**** that corporate nonsense.

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[DamnYanks2]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Changing the name of the Indians isn't going to make up for such horrors like the Trail of Tears much like changing the name of the Celtics isn't going to take away the sting of "no Irish need apply" or changing the name of the Brewers is going to bring my great grandparents back from the dead at the hands of a drunk driver. What can be done however is much like the Spokane Indians or the Florida State Seminole did. Get with the local band, come up with a way of honoring the tribe, and build a larger team. Getting rid of the name just buries the history; working together helps both communities grow together.

Perfectly put. I agree with all of this. You can't erase history, but you can improve the situation at hand, that's balance.

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[DieHardYankee26]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Exactly, and nobody ever calls those stadiums those ridiculous names. Progressive field is forever Jacob's field, or "The Jake"

**** that corporate nonsense.

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I don't know what people call it where you're from, but people around here call it FedEx, so that's just not true.

Regardless, my point was the owner cares so little about the history of the team that he changed the name of their stadium from an homage to their late legendary owner and sold it to the highest bidder. An argument aside from history is going to be needed in this case because that one holds no water.

I think you could make the opposite case in this case: that Washington is such a disgraceful franchise and their recent history is so garbage that they aren't worthy of using a Native American as their mascot.

Reading about the Spokane Indians makes the point further. They went in knowing the name itself could be a sensitive issue, so they set out to use no imagery. Then the tribe contacted them to flesh out a partnership. A complete 180 from the tone-deaf way Cleveland is handling Chief Wahoo.

[ProfessaPackMan]

MLB Off-Topic

Exactly, and nobody ever calls those stadiums those ridiculous names. Progressive field is forever Jacob's field, or "The Jake"

**** that corporate nonsense.

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Nah, they just call FedEx a dump.