MLB Off-Topic

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Lol "I'm not giving him a pass, I'm just giving him a pass."

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Lol "I'm not giving him a pass, I'm just giving him a pass."

It can be difficult to have any sort of nuanced conversation (which has probably gone off topic in the Off Topic by now, so maybe it's for the best) if you are going to take this blunt force tactic to discussing it.

[Blzer]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Lol "I'm not giving him a pass, I'm just giving him a pass."

If you're quoting me, you're severely mistaken.

All of my students know what I think about their generation as a lump sum. Many of them are beyond spoiled and many of them have a certain level of disrespect that I have not seen in any of my days. It starts with the internet and when they have Smartphones it just goes from there, add on social media and these reality shows that make them think how life is. I don't know where Hader falls, if he is radicalized, if he maintains his viewpoints, or whatever... but when I see those tweets, I see exactly what this teenage youth thinks they can do and just does it, especially on the internet.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

It can be difficult to have any sort of nuanced conversation (which has probably gone off topic in the Off Topic by now, so maybe it's for the best) if you are going to take this blunt force tactic to discussing it.

What do you think giving a pass means if it's not ignoring what he said, lumping him in a larger group that erases his personal faults, and then saying it's just not something to worry about?

[Blzer]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

What do you think giving a pass means if it's not ignoring what he said, lumping him in a larger group that erases his personal faults, and then saying it's just not something to worry about?

Whoa whoa whoa, not to worry about? I'm so very fearful of our future, that's the point! I said he's no worse than the rest of them. I'm doing what I can to those who I can, and I hope somebody (or age and maturity) got to him as well that his 17-year-old self is not the same as his 24-year-old self. I said that I was desensitized to this kind of thing surprising me. I also said that I've seen worse from people who I have admired for reasons outside of the people who they are, and it normally had to do with their talents or their rehabilitation.

What he said was not okay, let's make this perfectly, crystal clear. He was an idiot. I have been adamant about that statement. I just don't think he's the first person that needs to be burned at the stake. I'm in classrooms over 200 days a year with high schoolers, and there is a great bit of them that can even be verbally attacking to points that cross lines he has crossed. It is an epidemic issue with our youth culture, and it is a massive concern of mine.

EDIT: See post below, because I'm bad at elaborating this and can really put myself into a hole unintentionally.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

What do you think giving a pass means if it's not ignoring what he said, lumping him in a larger group that erases his personal faults, and then saying it's just not something to worry about?

Whether I agree with him or not, I respect that he was trying to make a more nuanced point that maybe wasn't intended to be repackaged into a single sentence.

Some of the nuance that may have been lost in your summarization: (1) there is a much larger problem with hate/bigotry/social media/youth in this country and erasing Josh Hader doesn't solve that problem; (2) maybe Hader's views have actually changed in the intervening time and what might that mean for the current situation?

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Whether I agree with him or not, I respect that he was trying to make a more nuanced point that maybe wasn't intended to be repackaged into a single sentence.

Some of the nuance that may have been lost in your summarization: (1) there is a much larger problem with hate/bigotry/social media/youth in this country and erasing Josh Hader doesn't solve that problem; (2) maybe Hader's views have actually changed in the intervening time and what might that mean for the current situation?

I can only address those if you can explain to me what a pass in this situation would look like because asking those questions and giving a pass are not mutually exclusive to me. You can ask, is Hader a part of a more outwardly hateful internet generation, and that can be true, but it doesn't absolve him of his part in the tweets. So I just need to know what a pass is here if saying "he's just like the rest in his generation" (which, as someone only 6 months older than him, I can only laugh at) is not one?

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

I can only address those if you can explain to me what a pass in this situation would look like because asking those questions and giving a pass are not mutually exclusive to me. You can ask, is Hader a part of a more outwardly hateful internet generation, and that can be true, but it doesn't absolve him of his part in the tweets. So I just need to know what a pass is here if saying "he's just like the rest in his generation" (which, as someone only 6 months older than him, I can only laugh at) is not one?

Firstly, I'd say that "giving a pass" is just a construct or a figure of speech and it has no inherent meaning beyond what you give it. A "pass" might be different for you or me or someone else based on whose interpretation we're going by and all the factors intrinsic to that.

To me, giving Hader a pass here in this situation would be totally buying into the fact that he did/said those things (or, worse even, that those things are just "things people say" and not that bad) 100% because he was 17 (and not because of any implicit bias) and then accepting his "apology" (rationalization might be a better term) at face value with no second thoughts. Thinking basically the same about him as you did the day before this surfaced. To me, that would constitute "giving him a pass." And I realize that your characterization might be (probably is) very different than that.

What I am hopefully trying to express is, there could possibly be a middle ground--where you despise his past (and possibly current) POV and don't necessarily think "youth" is a bulletproof excuse, BUT personal accountability is the only legitimate path he could really take here. Maybe he could eventually rehabilitate himself in the eyes of fans and teammates (and whomever else) if he does accept responsibility and is serious (unlike John Rocker, lol) about being better.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

I'm gonna be blatantly honest. And people wont like it.This stuff doesn't surprise me at all. And I'm gonna be real this world is too damn sensitive.

If you dig up my old fb account. I have statuses talking about how drunk I was. Talking about fighting. Alot of curse words. Quoting a few rap songs and a bunch of other immature stupid stuff. I also kind of have a dark humor.

I'm 28 now and I cringe and laugh at alot of the stuff I said. If I was ever in any kind of spot light. I'd 'be ripped to shreds by the media and social media.

Not sure we should judge people on social media posts. If anybody wants to pm me. Let's do it.

I despise this culture we live in. Where somebody can dig something up and now you are a pathetic, racist,evil person. It's hypocritical.



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[Blzer]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

I can only address those if you can explain to me what a pass in this situation would look like because asking those questions and giving a pass are not mutually exclusive to me. You can ask, is Hader a part of a more outwardly hateful internet generation, and that can be true, but it doesn't absolve him of his part in the tweets. So I just need to know what a pass is here if saying "he's just like the rest in his generation" (which, as someone only 6 months older than him, I can only laugh at) is not one?

You know what? You're right. Let's do something about it. Should I message him a death threat? Tell his family that they should disown him? Chastise anybody who has ever been associated with him or still interacts with him on any level?

If the Brewers cut him today, that might be the right thing on their end because they possibly can't afford to hold that image. The MLB should not annex him if they think he violated or broke some sort of rule or something, especially when it was in pre-adulthood and before he was in the league.

I already said that I am doing something about what I can do something about. Every year I have 160 new students, and every summer (including right now) I have about 30 students. I do my best to groom them in an environment that accepts any and all, is a safe place to share opinions on topics of academic conversation, and teach between the lines all of the time with telling them: "If the only thing you end up learning in this class is math, then I'm not doing my job." I mean here is a guy who has a flip phone for crying out loud, and embraces that fact.

I've had people see changes in themselves under my wing before, and I'd like to think that I can do it in others. When I see a tweet of that level of repugnance and I can't do anything about it, I shake my head and hope they can learn from it. When I see the same and it's someone that is directly involved in my life, I shake my head at myself wondering why I haven't done enough to get to them yet. And I try, really hard.

I am the last person to give passes at something like this. "Looking past it" was not the same thing whatsoever. I think what you were looking at was me saying that I wasn't surprised by this. Remember, I see and hear this kind of stuff weekly. Maybe not that direct level of homophobia, but enough that boundaries are crossed. I also think this guy grew up from it, I really do. And if he didn't and that truth comes out, then a deeper conversation should be had on how to oust him. But right now, I see him as: "There's the guy who gave up three runs in the eighth inning of the All-Star Game."

You want to poor on the Haderade, though? Be my guest, I am not against your opinion of him whatsoever. I'm willing to bet though that we have all made questionable social media posts. I have not been the best person with online stuff before, and if I went to pitch today and they found something questionable from that time that is not me today, I would hope to be exonerated as well.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Firstly, I'd say that "giving a pass" is just a construct or a figure of speech and it has no inherent meaning beyond what you give it. A "pass" might be different for you or me or someone else based on whose interpretation we're going by and all the factors intrinsic to that.

To me, giving Hader a pass here in this situation would be totally buying into the fact that he did/said those things (or, worse even, that those things are just "things people say" and not that bad) 100% because he was 17 (and not because of any implicit bias) and then accepting his "apology" (rationalization might be a better term) at face value with no second thoughts. Thinking basically the same about him as you did the day before this surfaced. To me, that would constitute "giving him a pass." And I realize that your characterization might be (probably is) very different than that.

What I am hopefully trying to express is, there could possibly be a middle ground--where you despise his past (and possibly current) POV and don't necessarily think "youth" is a bulletproof excuse, BUT personal accountability is the only legitimate path he could really take here. Maybe he could eventually rehabilitate himself in the eyes of fans and teammates (and whomever else) if he does accept responsibility and is serious (unlike John Rocker, lol) about being better.

I guess I'm just not seeing how it's not a pass in your view then. He believes he said these things, absolutely is buying into the fact that people at that age say things like that, and moving on. My definition is a little different, but I'd think it fits yours. Saying "I just don't think he should be the first one to be burned at the stake"... I think it may be a pass resets the relationship at 0 for you, where for me it's more about results. Before he even knew the details like how old he was it was already shrugged away.

And I agree personal accountability was Hader's only option, which is why I don't give him props for "admitting" it or whatever. It was obvious that the tweets were his, he had no lie to cook up.

It's worth pointing out that I haven't said I want Hader suspended, banned or anything like that. So when you mention that there is a lack of nuance and then Blzer is defending him so that he doesn't get "burned at the stake" or "sent hate mail", I see what you mean.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Alot of people say stupid stuff. They just don't broadcast it on social media. Hader should know better though. I saw did he did this somewhat recently.

I don't know the true content and character of this guy. Nobody does. But I realized one of his tweets was a Semi Pro reference.

Still... It's clear somebody was out to destroy his reputation and on All Star Weekend? That's not shady?



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[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

I guess I'm just not seeing how it's not a pass in your view then. He believes he said these things, absolutely is buying into the fact that people at that age say things like that, and moving on. My definition is a little different, but I'd think it fits yours. Saying "I just don't think he should be the first one to be burned at the stake"... I think it may be a pass resets the relationship at 0 for you, where for me it's more about results. Before he even knew the details like how old he was it was already shrugged away.

And I agree personal accountability was Hader's only option, which is why I don't give him props for "admitting" it or whatever. It was obvious that the tweets were his, he had no lie to cook up.

Fair enough. I think there's something to be said for clumsiness of words and expression also. I read the intent slightly different than you did. And you have to realize with Blzer, he needs 3 pages of text to tell you what he ate for breakfast, then 2 follow-up posts to clarify what kind of eggs and cereal it was (he's a math teacher). I kid. Kind of.

[Trapper700]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

I'm gonna be blatantly honest. And people wont like it.This stuff doesn't surprise me at all. And I'm gonna be real this world is too damn sensitive.

If you dig up my old fb account. I have statuses talking about how drunk I was. Talking about fighting. Alot of curse words. Quoting a few rap songs and a bunch of other immature stupid stuff. I also kind of have a dark humor.

I'm 28 now and I cringe and laugh at alot of the stuff I said. If I was ever in any kind of spot light. I'd 'be ripped to shreds by the media and social media.

Not sure we should judge people on social media posts. If anybody wants to pm me. Let's do it.

I despise this culture we live in. Where somebody can dig something up and now you are a pathetic, racist,evil person. It's hypocritical.



Sent from my SM-J327VPP using Tapatalk

I'm sure most of us have said some terrible stuff in our past* like saying stuff is "gay" or calling people "fag", but I am pretty comfortable saying that "white power" and "i hate gay people" isn't the same thing and deserves more than being brushed off as "oh, he was just a teenager!" 17 years old isn't too young to know when things are wrong, and he was attending a high school where (according to a tweet, so grain of salt) 15% of the population were black students.

Last night, he also said the things he tweeted were stuff from "rap lyrics" and I'm pretty sure there's not a lot of rap lyrics that praise "white power" or "KKK".

Also it doesn't really help that his girlfriend's twitter feed is full of homophobia and racial slurs, so he clearly keeps people with similar views close to him.


* and just because we all did terrible things doesn't make them not terrible

[BigOscar]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Still... It's clear somebody was out to destroy his reputation and on All Star Weekend? That's not shady?



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This is the bit I absolutely hate. People making out like he is some kind of victim. No one made him post those things, he is not remotely a victim.

My local politician go done for similar things recently and suspended from his party. Again some people tried to make out it was some huge injustice that people have trawled through and found his hate filled rants, but the reality is that it's on him, he did it and he has to take responsibility for it.

It's a witch hunt that only catches witches. He's had a light shone on him and revealed what kind of person he used to be, it's up to him now to prove he's not that person anymore.