What is your take on the Congress and MLB?

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  • USCTrojan83
    Pro
    • Mar 2005
    • 591

    #541
    Re: What is your take on the Congress and MLB?

    Originally posted by Pared
    Hand eye coordination is def. key... look at Tony Gwynn! The key is POWER.. and the stats show that Bonds' power increased in 00-05 by an average of 20 more HR's... you can't "ignore" his freak season, b/c it happened. But Steroids increases individual power, and this combined with his AGE (something you keep ignoring) are factors as well.

    No one "ignores" Williams' .406 BA when compiling his stats.
    I agree they dont...but the fact is pared you still have to see the ball hit the ball peroid....and if you want to say that Bonds needed the extra strength for the 20 HRS and steroids give an increase of 20HRS then that is ludicrous...studies have shown 10-15 feet maybe gained in useing steroids...(ESPN article few months back) I would agree 7-10 HRS but 20 i cant....

    Im not ignoring age...i know hes 40+...you decline when skills decline...right? Age is only a number in which we justify why guys stats decline....the real reason is because their skills diminish in part sue to old age and the body wearing down....IMO
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    • USCTrojan83
      Pro
      • Mar 2005
      • 591

      #542
      Re: What is your take on the Congress and MLB?

      Originally posted by Pared
      Oh, and yes, others have said it as well as published reports... Many believe when (not if) he breaks Aaron's record it will be another stain on one of the most cherished records in MLB.

      Aaron holds the record while having a steady DECLINE in stats... that's saying something, especially compared to (ugh) Bonds.

      I was never a Bond *****, but all I have to go by are what I've researched and their stats... and they don't favor Bonds in light of the allegations.
      Aaron declined his last 3 years from 40 in 1973 to 20 to 12 to 10...Bods has played 19 years....look man I agree with you he frieking cheated....But In my book hes one of the greatest players ever. and the greatest I ever SAW....

      Ill be back man its good discussing this with you...Im at work right now I have a meeting to go to...ill be back in like 30 min
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      • USCTrojan83
        Pro
        • Mar 2005
        • 591

        #543
        Re: What is your take on the Congress and MLB?

        Originally posted by Pared
        Oh, and yes, others have said it as well as published reports... Many believe when (not if) he breaks Aaron's record it will be another stain on one of the most cherished records in MLB.

        Aaron holds the record while having a steady DECLINE in stats... that's saying something, especially compared to (ugh) Bonds.

        I was never a Bond *****, but all I have to go by are what I've researched and their stats... and they don't favor Bonds in light of the allegations.
        Aaron declined his last 3 years from 40 in 1973 to 20 to 12 to 10...Bods has played 19 years....look man I agree with you he frieking cheated....But In my book hes one of the greatest players ever. and the greatest I ever SAW....

        Ill be back man its good discussing this with you...Im at work right now I have a meeting to go to...ill be back in like 30 min
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        • Pared
          Legen - WAIT FOR IT
          • Feb 2003
          • 39337

          #544
          Re: What is your take on the Congress and MLB?

          Originally posted by USCTrojan83
          Pared if you would read maybe 10 pages back this discussion has been ongoing...I would suggest reading back a little to the beginning and maybe you would have a greater knowledge to the discussion between us...

          1st What does Cali have to do with the fact of anything...Im not even a Bonds Guy...I hate the Giants...(Not a dodger guy either) Padre and Angel fan

          2nd) The reason I bring up griffey is becuase he was well on his way to breaking aarons record without the use of roids showing the fact there is the possiblility of the record being broken...The other names I bring up had huge years maris 61 HRS...willians .409 AVG year... he called bonds 73 HRS all based on roids which it is not....Many players over the years have had random years with great stats where that type of production wasnt seen...IE maris AVG 39hrs a yr and then hits 61...

          Might i remind you BONDS hit 46 HRS in 1993 so I dont think its not possible to do it again in the late 2000's...I think bonds is on roids but i dont think a significant # of HRS were the cause of his roid usage...the guy is a beast and was a great hitter before the steroid controversy...OCE again Pared im nopt arguing the usuage of roids ...

          This entire discussion between him and I were because I was arguing in my first ost that there are a lot more to do with increase in hrs IN GENERAL that roid usage
          1) smaller parks
          2) better fitness (supplements, workouts are taken more seriousl because in the 50-60's working out was somewhat taboo based on the assumed notion that working out would slow you down ie, running and bat speed....
          3) Pitching is watered down
          4) there were others in my previous posts

          Im not delusional but seriously Pared...look back in this thread and read some of the stuff...

          My main arguement is NOT THAT bonds didnt take steroids...Im pretty sure he did....But IMO i wont look back and say he tainted the game just based on the fact that he was one of the greatest players iver ever SEEN play roids or not....His hand eye coordination even at his age now is still amazing...Roids do not increase hand eye coordination...strength and possibly bat speed yes not hand eye coordination
          Fair enough. But he HAS tainted the records if he was using steroids. I don't see how you can argue that.

          And again, Griffey and Bonds aren't comparable... b/c no one with any sort of logic can say Griffey all of a sudden, at the age of 37-41 would be jacking them out at the rate Bonds is... Griffey's prime was obviously in his late 20's to early 30's... and you can sit there, with a straight face, and say Bonds, at the age of 40, is comparable to Griffey at the age of 29???

          C'mon...
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          Comment

          • Pared
            Legen - WAIT FOR IT
            • Feb 2003
            • 39337

            #545
            Re: What is your take on the Congress and MLB?

            Originally posted by USCTrojan83
            Pared if you would read maybe 10 pages back this discussion has been ongoing...I would suggest reading back a little to the beginning and maybe you would have a greater knowledge to the discussion between us...

            1st What does Cali have to do with the fact of anything...Im not even a Bonds Guy...I hate the Giants...(Not a dodger guy either) Padre and Angel fan

            2nd) The reason I bring up griffey is becuase he was well on his way to breaking aarons record without the use of roids showing the fact there is the possiblility of the record being broken...The other names I bring up had huge years maris 61 HRS...willians .409 AVG year... he called bonds 73 HRS all based on roids which it is not....Many players over the years have had random years with great stats where that type of production wasnt seen...IE maris AVG 39hrs a yr and then hits 61...

            Might i remind you BONDS hit 46 HRS in 1993 so I dont think its not possible to do it again in the late 2000's...I think bonds is on roids but i dont think a significant # of HRS were the cause of his roid usage...the guy is a beast and was a great hitter before the steroid controversy...OCE again Pared im nopt arguing the usuage of roids ...

            This entire discussion between him and I were because I was arguing in my first ost that there are a lot more to do with increase in hrs IN GENERAL that roid usage
            1) smaller parks
            2) better fitness (supplements, workouts are taken more seriousl because in the 50-60's working out was somewhat taboo based on the assumed notion that working out would slow you down ie, running and bat speed....
            3) Pitching is watered down
            4) there were others in my previous posts

            Im not delusional but seriously Pared...look back in this thread and read some of the stuff...

            My main arguement is NOT THAT bonds didnt take steroids...Im pretty sure he did....But IMO i wont look back and say he tainted the game just based on the fact that he was one of the greatest players iver ever SEEN play roids or not....His hand eye coordination even at his age now is still amazing...Roids do not increase hand eye coordination...strength and possibly bat speed yes not hand eye coordination
            Fair enough. But he HAS tainted the records if he was using steroids. I don't see how you can argue that.

            And again, Griffey and Bonds aren't comparable... b/c no one with any sort of logic can say Griffey all of a sudden, at the age of 37-41 would be jacking them out at the rate Bonds is... Griffey's prime was obviously in his late 20's to early 30's... and you can sit there, with a straight face, and say Bonds, at the age of 40, is comparable to Griffey at the age of 29???

            C'mon...
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            Comment

            • Pared
              Legen - WAIT FOR IT
              • Feb 2003
              • 39337

              #546
              Re: What is your take on the Congress and MLB?

              Originally posted by USCTrojan83
              I agree they dont...but the fact is pared you still have to see the ball hit the ball peroid....and if you want to say that Bonds needed the extra strength for the 20 HRS and steroids give an increase of 20HRS then that is ludicrous...studies have shown 10-15 feet maybe gained in useing steroids...(ESPN article few months back) I would agree 7-10 HRS but 20 i cant....
              Bonds HR avg. since 2000 w/o the 73 HR season: 46.25

              That's still a bit under a 16 HR a season jump... at the age of 36-41.

              I've never said he wasn't a great player. I've also never said he didn't have great hand-eye coordination. Hand-eye coordination will only take you so far. But this is not just a "coincidence" with the Steroid allegations... and that's all I'm saying. The record, IMO, is stained for sure.
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              Comment

              • Pared
                Legen - WAIT FOR IT
                • Feb 2003
                • 39337

                #547
                Re: What is your take on the Congress and MLB?

                Originally posted by USCTrojan83
                I agree they dont...but the fact is pared you still have to see the ball hit the ball peroid....and if you want to say that Bonds needed the extra strength for the 20 HRS and steroids give an increase of 20HRS then that is ludicrous...studies have shown 10-15 feet maybe gained in useing steroids...(ESPN article few months back) I would agree 7-10 HRS but 20 i cant....
                Bonds HR avg. since 2000 w/o the 73 HR season: 46.25

                That's still a bit under a 16 HR a season jump... at the age of 36-41.

                I've never said he wasn't a great player. I've also never said he didn't have great hand-eye coordination. Hand-eye coordination will only take you so far. But this is not just a "coincidence" with the Steroid allegations... and that's all I'm saying. The record, IMO, is stained for sure.
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                Comment

                • glucklich
                  Banned
                  • Jun 2004
                  • 4272

                  #548
                  Re: What is your take on the Congress and MLB?

                  Originally posted by Pared
                  Fair enough. But he HAS tainted the records if he was using steroids. I don't see how you can argue that.

                  And again, Griffey and Bonds aren't comparable... b/c no one with any sort of logic can say Griffey all of a sudden, at the age of 37-41 would be jacking them out at the rate Bonds is... Griffey's prime was obviously in his late 20's to early 30's... and you can sit there, with a straight face, and say Bonds, at the age of 40, is comparable to Griffey at the age of 29???

                  C'mon...
                  Heres the thing. Youre argument seems to be predicated on the fact that you SHOULD decline as you approach 40. It further seems to attribute this decline to hand eye reflexes. This not an unsensible observation because this seems to be the way progression has worked historically. But what if its not so much the hand-eye coordination as much as it is losing the muscle structure to act on the hand-eye coordination. If thats the case the you have to consider the affect that constant training may have at the end of your career. Look at Nolan Ryan, he attributes it to his devoted workout regimen. For the same reason 40 may no longer mean what it once used to. Im not saying Bonds did steroids, Im not saying he didnt do steroids but Im throwing the idea out there that the belief that age 40 means X may now be somewhat erroneous.

                  Comment

                  • glucklich
                    Banned
                    • Jun 2004
                    • 4272

                    #549
                    Re: What is your take on the Congress and MLB?

                    Originally posted by Pared
                    Fair enough. But he HAS tainted the records if he was using steroids. I don't see how you can argue that.

                    And again, Griffey and Bonds aren't comparable... b/c no one with any sort of logic can say Griffey all of a sudden, at the age of 37-41 would be jacking them out at the rate Bonds is... Griffey's prime was obviously in his late 20's to early 30's... and you can sit there, with a straight face, and say Bonds, at the age of 40, is comparable to Griffey at the age of 29???

                    C'mon...
                    Heres the thing. Youre argument seems to be predicated on the fact that you SHOULD decline as you approach 40. It further seems to attribute this decline to hand eye reflexes. This not an unsensible observation because this seems to be the way progression has worked historically. But what if its not so much the hand-eye coordination as much as it is losing the muscle structure to act on the hand-eye coordination. If thats the case the you have to consider the affect that constant training may have at the end of your career. Look at Nolan Ryan, he attributes it to his devoted workout regimen. For the same reason 40 may no longer mean what it once used to. Im not saying Bonds did steroids, Im not saying he didnt do steroids but Im throwing the idea out there that the belief that age 40 means X may now be somewhat erroneous.

                    Comment

                    • USCTrojan83
                      Pro
                      • Mar 2005
                      • 591

                      #550
                      Re: What is your take on the Congress and MLB?

                      Originally posted by Pared
                      Bonds HR avg. since 2000 w/o the 73 HR season: 46.25

                      That's still a bit under a 16 HR a season jump... at the age of 36-41.

                      I've never said he wasn't a great player. I've also never said he didn't have great hand-eye coordination. Hand-eye coordination will only take you so far. But this is not just a "coincidence" with the Steroid allegations... and that's all I'm saying. The record, IMO, is stained for sure.
                      I agree its stained.....and still the 16 hr jump is significant at that age..with skills likely to diminsh in some concern...Either way we look at it Barry's going to break the record as long as his kneee heals in time....Hand-eye coordination like Barry's will get you to the majors and then some....He took roids and he basically admitted to the fact...Saying he didnt "know" until he stopped taking the cream....which is a lie and we all know he knew about it...

                      This is just another stepping stone for baseball to get over...luckily enough this didnt have the result like the Black Sox Scandal, 94 Strike, and Rose Gambling.

                      By the way Im dumping your MVP sliders in favor of Jistics'....JK
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                      Comment

                      • USCTrojan83
                        Pro
                        • Mar 2005
                        • 591

                        #551
                        Re: What is your take on the Congress and MLB?

                        Originally posted by Pared
                        Bonds HR avg. since 2000 w/o the 73 HR season: 46.25

                        That's still a bit under a 16 HR a season jump... at the age of 36-41.

                        I've never said he wasn't a great player. I've also never said he didn't have great hand-eye coordination. Hand-eye coordination will only take you so far. But this is not just a "coincidence" with the Steroid allegations... and that's all I'm saying. The record, IMO, is stained for sure.
                        I agree its stained.....and still the 16 hr jump is significant at that age..with skills likely to diminsh in some concern...Either way we look at it Barry's going to break the record as long as his kneee heals in time....Hand-eye coordination like Barry's will get you to the majors and then some....He took roids and he basically admitted to the fact...Saying he didnt "know" until he stopped taking the cream....which is a lie and we all know he knew about it...

                        This is just another stepping stone for baseball to get over...luckily enough this didnt have the result like the Black Sox Scandal, 94 Strike, and Rose Gambling.

                        By the way Im dumping your MVP sliders in favor of Jistics'....JK
                        NCAA Football
                        USC Trojans
                        NFL Football
                        Buffalo Bills
                        San Francisco 49ers
                        MLB Baseball
                        Los Angeles Angeles of Anahiem
                        Atlanta Braves
                        NHL Hockey
                        Los Angeles Kings

                        Comment

                        • Pared
                          Legen - WAIT FOR IT
                          • Feb 2003
                          • 39337

                          #552
                          Re: What is your take on the Congress and MLB?

                          Originally posted by glucklich
                          Heres the thing. Youre argument seems to be predicated on the fact that you SHOULD decline as you approach 40. It further seems to attribute this decline to hand eye reflexes. This not an unsensible observation because this seems to be the way progression has worked historically. But what if its not so much the hand-eye coordination as much as it is losing the muscle structure to act on the hand-eye coordination. If thats the case the you have to consider the affect that constant training may have at the end of your career. Look at Nolan Ryan, he attributes it to his devoted workout regimen. For the same reason 40 may no longer mean what it once used to. Im not saying Bonds did steroids, Im not saying he didnt do steroids but Im throwing the idea out there that the belief that age 40 means X may now be somewhat erroneous.
                          No, it's not predicated on a steady decline, but CONSISTENCY...

                          Everyone who uses players as examples... Ryan, Clemens, (Randy) Johnson... you're using players who have ALWAYS excelled at their craft! They did not all of a sudden break the record for wins by a pitcher or K's in a season by a huge margin.... There's a difference....
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                          • Pared
                            Legen - WAIT FOR IT
                            • Feb 2003
                            • 39337

                            #553
                            Re: What is your take on the Congress and MLB?

                            Originally posted by glucklich
                            Heres the thing. Youre argument seems to be predicated on the fact that you SHOULD decline as you approach 40. It further seems to attribute this decline to hand eye reflexes. This not an unsensible observation because this seems to be the way progression has worked historically. But what if its not so much the hand-eye coordination as much as it is losing the muscle structure to act on the hand-eye coordination. If thats the case the you have to consider the affect that constant training may have at the end of your career. Look at Nolan Ryan, he attributes it to his devoted workout regimen. For the same reason 40 may no longer mean what it once used to. Im not saying Bonds did steroids, Im not saying he didnt do steroids but Im throwing the idea out there that the belief that age 40 means X may now be somewhat erroneous.
                            No, it's not predicated on a steady decline, but CONSISTENCY...

                            Everyone who uses players as examples... Ryan, Clemens, (Randy) Johnson... you're using players who have ALWAYS excelled at their craft! They did not all of a sudden break the record for wins by a pitcher or K's in a season by a huge margin.... There's a difference....
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                            [OS Vets NBA 2k7 Champion]
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                            Comment

                            • Pared
                              Legen - WAIT FOR IT
                              • Feb 2003
                              • 39337

                              #554
                              Re: What is your take on the Congress and MLB?

                              Originally posted by USCTrojan83
                              I agree its stained.....and still the 16 hr jump is significant at that age..with skills likely to diminsh in some concern...Either way we look at it Barry's going to break the record as long as his kneee heals in time....Hand-eye coordination like Barry's will get you to the majors and then some....He took roids and he basically admitted to the fact...Saying he didnt "know" until he stopped taking the cream....which is a lie and we all know he knew about it...

                              This is just another stepping stone for baseball to get over...luckily enough this didnt have the result like the Black Sox Scandal, 94 Strike, and Rose Gambling.
                              Well, it seems we are on the same page, in a sense... great discussion. It's always nice when people don't have to resort to name calling and such.

                              Originally posted by USCTrojan83
                              By the way Im dumping your MVP sliders in favor of Jistics'....JK
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                              [OS Vets NBA 2k7 Champion]
                              Now Playing: TLOU: Remastered
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                              Comment

                              • Pared
                                Legen - WAIT FOR IT
                                • Feb 2003
                                • 39337

                                #555
                                Re: What is your take on the Congress and MLB?

                                Originally posted by USCTrojan83
                                I agree its stained.....and still the 16 hr jump is significant at that age..with skills likely to diminsh in some concern...Either way we look at it Barry's going to break the record as long as his kneee heals in time....Hand-eye coordination like Barry's will get you to the majors and then some....He took roids and he basically admitted to the fact...Saying he didnt "know" until he stopped taking the cream....which is a lie and we all know he knew about it...

                                This is just another stepping stone for baseball to get over...luckily enough this didnt have the result like the Black Sox Scandal, 94 Strike, and Rose Gambling.
                                Well, it seems we are on the same page, in a sense... great discussion. It's always nice when people don't have to resort to name calling and such.

                                Originally posted by USCTrojan83
                                By the way Im dumping your MVP sliders in favor of Jistics'....JK
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