Roberto Alomar Retires

[SportsTop]

Re: Roberto Alomar Retires

Oops, I forgot he was already in.

But I still think it's silly to hold a vote back because of they way they were treated. I would only make an exception if something really offensive was said.

I agree. But sadly, it's always been that way and it will always be that way so long as the writers are the ones casting the ballots. Although Griffey was injured for a large portion of the latter part of his career I think he has benefited from the steroid controversy. His name has never, ever been brought up in any steroid conversation and he's never been implicated in the slightest.

Half off the eight players to hit 500 HR's in the last 20 years have had accusations of steroids:

Schmidt
McGwire*
Bonds*
Sosa*
Murray
Palmeiro*
Griffey
Jackson

I think this will bring Griffey's accomplishment that much more to the forefront and ensure him of potential 1st ballot HOF election.

Speaking of players abrasive relationships with writers, did you know that Ted Williams lost the AL MVP to Joe Dimaggio largely due to the fact that the two Boston writers left him completely off of their ballots. Williams hit .406 that year. The following year Williams lost the AL MVP to Joe Gordon, again a Yankee, even though the Splinter hit for the Triple Crown. And yet again he lost out to Joe Dimaggio in 1947 after, yet again, hitting for the Triple Crown......and did I mention he had just returned from WWII?

Kind of makes you wonder how much more of a legend Williams would be if he would've just bit his tongue every now and then.

[jdros13]

Re: Roberto Alomar Retires

Along those lines....

The only players that could possibly retire this year and have at least a decent shot at the HOF are:

Barry Bonds (HOF lock, 'roids or not)
Rafael Palmeiro (HOF lock)
Larry Walker (borderline HOF)
Craig Biggio (HOF near-lock)
Fred McGriff (borderline HOF)
Roger Clemens (do I even have to say it?)
Greg Maddux (see above)
Tom Glavine (likely HOF)
David Wells (borderline HOF)

Not saying any or all of these guys will retire this year, but it is highly possible two or more could hang them up (Clemens, Palmeiro) that will make the selection a little more difficult for guys in Alomar's position.

Ok, don't take this as someone "calling you out" but I just wanted to give my $0.02 on your list....

Bonds - Lock at the moment, and should be in, but BALCO could really hurt him

Rafael Palmeiro - agree, a lock, but possibly not first ballot

Larry Walker - If Dale Murphy (who was a better and much more dominant player in the '80's) can't get in he has no shot

Craig Biggio - no shot, might hang on the ballot for a couple of years but he wasn't a HOFer

Fred McGriff - great player, I'd vote for him, but too many good first basemen in his era. Don't think he makes it.

Roger Clemens - Obvious Lock

Greg Maddux - Obvious Lock

Tom Glavine - Needs to get to at least 290 wins (2 more good seasons) IMO... Five 20 win seasons, 3.44 ERA, Good pitcher on great teams, but was never really dominant

David Wells - No Shot, shouldn't be on the ballot more than twice. I was surprised that he had 212 wins when I looked him up (thought he was under 200), but his 4.03 career ERA, no Cy Youngs, and the fact he was never really even considered an ace make him the most unlikely on the list

IMO, it is too difficult to get into the HOF, and I'd say that most of the players on your list are consideration worthy, but I think there are going to be a lot of guys with good numbers who get left out of the hall over the next 20 years.

On Robbie, I think he eventually gets in because he was widely considered the best 2B of his era, but the nosedive his career took at the end, coupled with the fact that he doesn't have any of the magical milestones, is going to make him a 2nd-5th ballot guy IMO.

[jdros13]

Re: Roberto Alomar Retires

Along those lines....

The only players that could possibly retire this year and have at least a decent shot at the HOF are:

Barry Bonds (HOF lock, 'roids or not)
Rafael Palmeiro (HOF lock)
Larry Walker (borderline HOF)
Craig Biggio (HOF near-lock)
Fred McGriff (borderline HOF)
Roger Clemens (do I even have to say it?)
Greg Maddux (see above)
Tom Glavine (likely HOF)
David Wells (borderline HOF)

Not saying any or all of these guys will retire this year, but it is highly possible two or more could hang them up (Clemens, Palmeiro) that will make the selection a little more difficult for guys in Alomar's position.

Ok, don't take this as someone "calling you out" but I just wanted to give my $0.02 on your list....

Bonds - Lock at the moment, and should be in, but BALCO could really hurt him

Rafael Palmeiro - agree, a lock, but possibly not first ballot

Larry Walker - If Dale Murphy (who was a better and much more dominant player in the '80's) can't get in he has no shot

Craig Biggio - no shot, might hang on the ballot for a couple of years but he wasn't a HOFer

Fred McGriff - great player, I'd vote for him, but too many good first basemen in his era. Don't think he makes it.

Roger Clemens - Obvious Lock

Greg Maddux - Obvious Lock

Tom Glavine - Needs to get to at least 290 wins (2 more good seasons) IMO... Five 20 win seasons, 3.44 ERA, Good pitcher on great teams, but was never really dominant

David Wells - No Shot, shouldn't be on the ballot more than twice. I was surprised that he had 212 wins when I looked him up (thought he was under 200), but his 4.03 career ERA, no Cy Youngs, and the fact he was never really even considered an ace make him the most unlikely on the list

IMO, it is too difficult to get into the HOF, and I'd say that most of the players on your list are consideration worthy, but I think there are going to be a lot of guys with good numbers who get left out of the hall over the next 20 years.

On Robbie, I think he eventually gets in because he was widely considered the best 2B of his era, but the nosedive his career took at the end, coupled with the fact that he doesn't have any of the magical milestones, is going to make him a 2nd-5th ballot guy IMO.

[SportsTop]

Re: Roberto Alomar Retires

Ok, don't take this as someone "calling you out" but I just wanted to give my $0.02 on your list....

There's a difference between calling somone out and having a well-mannered debate/discussion on a message board. I definitely took your post as the latter.

To follow on a bit:

Bonds - He's a lock now and will be whenever he finally decides to retire. Steroids or no steroids he is still the most dominant player of our generation and that won't be ignored. It will be debatable as to whether or not he will be elected on the first ballot, but I wouldn't be surprised either way.

Rafael Palmeiro - If it is ever proven (highly unlikely) that he was not a steroid user than I think he will be a definite first ballot HOFer. Otherwise, he'll get in on his 2nd year of eligibility without a doubt.

Larry Walker - I'll go more into the Walker/Murphy debate below.

Craig Biggio - Biggio is another case that I could write an entire thread about by itself. You have to consider what he's done throughout his career. He was an all-star at two different positions and has been a productive player at a third different position. We aren't talking DH or 1B here either. He has an outside shot at 3,000 hits (if he plays through 2006 he should get it) and will have played over 2700 games. There are only two eligible players that have played at least 2700 games and are not in the HOF (Rusty Staub - 2951 and Graig Nettles - 2700) and Biggio has either already eclipsed are will shortly better most of their career offensive statistics (expcept Nettles HR total).

Fred McGriff - As I stated before....he's borderline and could squeak in on a weak class sometime down the road. He'll be someone whose vote total will rise by 2-5 percentage points each year.

Tom Glavine - Find me another left-handed pitcher with at least 250 wins and 2 Cy Young Awards who isn't in the HOF. There are only two of them out there: Steve Carlton (considered one of the best left handed pitchers of the last 50 years) and Randy Johnson. Now granted, Johnson isn't in the HOF, but short of going on a mass-murdering spree he is as much of a lock as Roger Clemens is. In fact, Glavine is seventh in wins all-time by a left-hander and will be sixth prior to the all-star break. The only left-hander to win more games than Glavine is Jim Kaat. Kaat never won a Cy Young and his winning percentage is .544 compared to Glavine's .605. Lastly, Glavine is 8th All-time in Cy Young shares. While this isn't a recognizable statistic, it produces a barometer to which we can measure his overall value and production against other pitchers of his era.

I would be shocked if Glavine wasn't elected within his first 3 years of eligiblity.

David Wells - I'll agree that Wells is a long-shot at best (which is why I listed him as borderline) but the list of left-handed pitchers with 200+ wins is a short one.

Now for the Dale Murphy/Larry Walker comparison:

Larry Walker has three batting titles. Dale Murphy has zero.

Larry Walker's career batting average is .314. Dale Murphy's is .265.

Larry Walker's career OBP is .401. Dale Murphy's is .346.

They were both considered excellent defensive players, but I would have to give Walker the edge defensively based on arm strength.

Murphy does have two MVP's over Walker's one, but look at the caliber of players Walker has had to compete with compared to Murphy. I would submit to you that there have been many more dominant players in the Walker era as compared to the Murphy era.

And lastly, Murphy played on crappy teams, plain and simple. It sucks that voters remember this, but it is a harsh reality.

I'm sure we could go back and forth on these two players all night, but I simply believe that Walker is a more qualified candidate for the HOF than Murphy ever was.

[SportsTop]

Re: Roberto Alomar Retires

Ok, don't take this as someone "calling you out" but I just wanted to give my $0.02 on your list....

There's a difference between calling somone out and having a well-mannered debate/discussion on a message board. I definitely took your post as the latter.

To follow on a bit:

Bonds - He's a lock now and will be whenever he finally decides to retire. Steroids or no steroids he is still the most dominant player of our generation and that won't be ignored. It will be debatable as to whether or not he will be elected on the first ballot, but I wouldn't be surprised either way.

Rafael Palmeiro - If it is ever proven (highly unlikely) that he was not a steroid user than I think he will be a definite first ballot HOFer. Otherwise, he'll get in on his 2nd year of eligibility without a doubt.

Larry Walker - I'll go more into the Walker/Murphy debate below.

Craig Biggio - Biggio is another case that I could write an entire thread about by itself. You have to consider what he's done throughout his career. He was an all-star at two different positions and has been a productive player at a third different position. We aren't talking DH or 1B here either. He has an outside shot at 3,000 hits (if he plays through 2006 he should get it) and will have played over 2700 games. There are only two eligible players that have played at least 2700 games and are not in the HOF (Rusty Staub - 2951 and Graig Nettles - 2700) and Biggio has either already eclipsed are will shortly better most of their career offensive statistics (expcept Nettles HR total).

Fred McGriff - As I stated before....he's borderline and could squeak in on a weak class sometime down the road. He'll be someone whose vote total will rise by 2-5 percentage points each year.

Tom Glavine - Find me another left-handed pitcher with at least 250 wins and 2 Cy Young Awards who isn't in the HOF. There are only two of them out there: Steve Carlton (considered one of the best left handed pitchers of the last 50 years) and Randy Johnson. Now granted, Johnson isn't in the HOF, but short of going on a mass-murdering spree he is as much of a lock as Roger Clemens is. In fact, Glavine is seventh in wins all-time by a left-hander and will be sixth prior to the all-star break. The only left-hander to win more games than Glavine is Jim Kaat. Kaat never won a Cy Young and his winning percentage is .544 compared to Glavine's .605. Lastly, Glavine is 8th All-time in Cy Young shares. While this isn't a recognizable statistic, it produces a barometer to which we can measure his overall value and production against other pitchers of his era.

I would be shocked if Glavine wasn't elected within his first 3 years of eligiblity.

David Wells - I'll agree that Wells is a long-shot at best (which is why I listed him as borderline) but the list of left-handed pitchers with 200+ wins is a short one.

Now for the Dale Murphy/Larry Walker comparison:

Larry Walker has three batting titles. Dale Murphy has zero.

Larry Walker's career batting average is .314. Dale Murphy's is .265.

Larry Walker's career OBP is .401. Dale Murphy's is .346.

They were both considered excellent defensive players, but I would have to give Walker the edge defensively based on arm strength.

Murphy does have two MVP's over Walker's one, but look at the caliber of players Walker has had to compete with compared to Murphy. I would submit to you that there have been many more dominant players in the Walker era as compared to the Murphy era.

And lastly, Murphy played on crappy teams, plain and simple. It sucks that voters remember this, but it is a harsh reality.

I'm sure we could go back and forth on these two players all night, but I simply believe that Walker is a more qualified candidate for the HOF than Murphy ever was.

[jdros13]

Re: Roberto Alomar Retires

Sorry I haven't logged back on until now, I would have liked to keep this going while it was fresh!

On Biggio we will just have to agree to disagree. If you look at the list of second basemen in the HOF *Link* I'm sure you will notice that this a very under represented position. Ryne Sandberg just got inducted in 2005 and IMO was the dominant 2Bman of the 80's. No other player that spent the majority of their career in the 80's has made the hall. Before Sanberg you had Bill Mazeroski whose career ended in 1972 (elected in 2001), and someone named Bid McPhee whose career was exclusively in the 1800's (elected in 2000). In '91 Rod Carew went in as a 2Bman and most of his career was in the 70's and Joe Morgan went in in '90 and of course his career was mainly in the 60's and 70's. There are huge gaps between 2Bmen getting into the HOF, and just looking at the list it appears that you need to be the dominant player at your position for that era to get in. That being said, IMO there are 3 players at the postion who are competing for one, maybe 2 spots in the HOF....Biggio, Alomar, Kent. I personally would make the argument that of those 3 Alomar and Kent would be my choices from this era, although Alomar's decline certainly has to give one pause, and I can't honestly say how much of an impact Kent's power numbers are going to have in voters minds. BTW, here is a good article discussing Biggio's HOF case, and while it was written by astrosdaily.com, I think it is pretty even handed. (It does agree with you, however).*LINK*

On to Walker. I have to admit that I personally think that someone who has spent so much time on the DL, played in the expansion era, and spent the majority of their career in Coors field is going to have to have just unbelievable numbers to get into the HOF. I don't think he has those unbelievable numbers at this point. In what has so far been a 16 year career his career totals of 2069 hits, 368 HRs, and 1259 RBIs in what has undoubtedly been an offensive era in the game just don't stack up at this point. Additionally I think that voters will and should consider the fact that in his career he has only played more than 140 games in a season 4 times (1997 when he won the MVP playing 153 games, 1992, 2001, 2003 ). Three times (not counting his first season when he only played 20 games) he has played fewer than 90 games in a season ( 1996, 2000, 2004). The two guys who are struggling to get into the HOF I would compare him to are of course Murphy, but also Andre Dawson.

Murphy's numbers don't stack up to Walker on paper, but they really need to be viewed in comparison to his peers. In the 1980's he won back to back MVP's, 5 Gold Gloves, was a 30-30 player, and led the National League for the decade in the following categories: Hits, Runs, RBI's. IMO, the dominant offensive player (and I am a Phillies and Mike Schmidt fan) of the 1980's only got 10% of the votes last year.

Dawson, who has fared better with voters but is still not close to induction (52% last year), is another player who I think is more deserving than Walker. There are only 2 players in history that have matched his totals in all three of these categories: 2,774 hits, 438 HRs, 314 SBs....those 2 players are Willie Mays and Barry Bonds. He was an 8 time Gold Glover, 8 time All-Star, and is the last NL player to win an MVP award when playing for a last place team (1987 - Cubs). He truly was always in the conversation about the best player in the NL during the 80's, yet he can't seem to get over the hump.

BTW, I stole most of my stats for Dawson and Murphy from Jayson Stark, who I knew was a big proponent of Murphy for the HOF *LINK*

On Glavine, I do agree that he will probably make the Hall, I just don't think he is a lock yet. If he has another year or two of 13+ wins he should probably make it, I just think that he still needs that year or two.

It was fun looking all this stuff up...thanks for starting the conversation!

[jdros13]

Re: Roberto Alomar Retires

Sorry I haven't logged back on until now, I would have liked to keep this going while it was fresh!

On Biggio we will just have to agree to disagree. If you look at the list of second basemen in the HOF *Link* I'm sure you will notice that this a very under represented position. Ryne Sandberg just got inducted in 2005 and IMO was the dominant 2Bman of the 80's. No other player that spent the majority of their career in the 80's has made the hall. Before Sanberg you had Bill Mazeroski whose career ended in 1972 (elected in 2001), and someone named Bid McPhee whose career was exclusively in the 1800's (elected in 2000). In '91 Rod Carew went in as a 2Bman and most of his career was in the 70's and Joe Morgan went in in '90 and of course his career was mainly in the 60's and 70's. There are huge gaps between 2Bmen getting into the HOF, and just looking at the list it appears that you need to be the dominant player at your position for that era to get in. That being said, IMO there are 3 players at the postion who are competing for one, maybe 2 spots in the HOF....Biggio, Alomar, Kent. I personally would make the argument that of those 3 Alomar and Kent would be my choices from this era, although Alomar's decline certainly has to give one pause, and I can't honestly say how much of an impact Kent's power numbers are going to have in voters minds. BTW, here is a good article discussing Biggio's HOF case, and while it was written by astrosdaily.com, I think it is pretty even handed. (It does agree with you, however).*LINK*

On to Walker. I have to admit that I personally think that someone who has spent so much time on the DL, played in the expansion era, and spent the majority of their career in Coors field is going to have to have just unbelievable numbers to get into the HOF. I don't think he has those unbelievable numbers at this point. In what has so far been a 16 year career his career totals of 2069 hits, 368 HRs, and 1259 RBIs in what has undoubtedly been an offensive era in the game just don't stack up at this point. Additionally I think that voters will and should consider the fact that in his career he has only played more than 140 games in a season 4 times (1997 when he won the MVP playing 153 games, 1992, 2001, 2003 ). Three times (not counting his first season when he only played 20 games) he has played fewer than 90 games in a season ( 1996, 2000, 2004). The two guys who are struggling to get into the HOF I would compare him to are of course Murphy, but also Andre Dawson.

Murphy's numbers don't stack up to Walker on paper, but they really need to be viewed in comparison to his peers. In the 1980's he won back to back MVP's, 5 Gold Gloves, was a 30-30 player, and led the National League for the decade in the following categories: Hits, Runs, RBI's. IMO, the dominant offensive player (and I am a Phillies and Mike Schmidt fan) of the 1980's only got 10% of the votes last year.

Dawson, who has fared better with voters but is still not close to induction (52% last year), is another player who I think is more deserving than Walker. There are only 2 players in history that have matched his totals in all three of these categories: 2,774 hits, 438 HRs, 314 SBs....those 2 players are Willie Mays and Barry Bonds. He was an 8 time Gold Glover, 8 time All-Star, and is the last NL player to win an MVP award when playing for a last place team (1987 - Cubs). He truly was always in the conversation about the best player in the NL during the 80's, yet he can't seem to get over the hump.

BTW, I stole most of my stats for Dawson and Murphy from Jayson Stark, who I knew was a big proponent of Murphy for the HOF *LINK*

On Glavine, I do agree that he will probably make the Hall, I just don't think he is a lock yet. If he has another year or two of 13+ wins he should probably make it, I just think that he still needs that year or two.

It was fun looking all this stuff up...thanks for starting the conversation!

[jLp_vAkEr0]

Re: Roberto Alomar Retires

I guess you know every player that's going to be eligible to go to the HOF that year? You do realize that you have to have a % of the vote to get in and if the eligible class is strong, the votes will be spread out. If the class is strong, he's not getting in 1st ballot.

Not every player available for the HOF is considered at least top 5 in his position all time.

[jLp_vAkEr0]

Re: Roberto Alomar Retires

I guess you know every player that's going to be eligible to go to the HOF that year? You do realize that you have to have a % of the vote to get in and if the eligible class is strong, the votes will be spread out. If the class is strong, he's not getting in 1st ballot.

Not every player available for the HOF is considered at least top 5 in his position all time.

[mjb2124]

Re: Roberto Alomar Retires

Not every player available for the HOF is considered at least top 5 in his position all time.

No and I'm not sure Alomar is either.

Here's a few 2B's I'd put ahead of Alomar:

Nap Lajoie
Eddie Collins
Charlie Gehringer
Rod Carew
Ryne Sandberg
Joe Morgan (Possibly)


The point that you're missing is that there might be other guys who retire after this year that will recieve a higher percentage of the vote (See Squint's post earlier). Alomar has to somehow get 75% of the vote to get in (I think HOF is 75% of the vote). If Bonds, Clemens and Palmiero retire this year, Alomar's going to have a tough time getting 75% with those 3.

There's no doubt in my mind that Alomar is HOF worthy, but if the class is strong, he's not getting in 1st ballot.

[mjb2124]

Re: Roberto Alomar Retires

Not every player available for the HOF is considered at least top 5 in his position all time.

No and I'm not sure Alomar is either.

Here's a few 2B's I'd put ahead of Alomar:

Nap Lajoie
Eddie Collins
Charlie Gehringer
Rod Carew
Ryne Sandberg
Joe Morgan (Possibly)


The point that you're missing is that there might be other guys who retire after this year that will recieve a higher percentage of the vote (See Squint's post earlier). Alomar has to somehow get 75% of the vote to get in (I think HOF is 75% of the vote). If Bonds, Clemens and Palmiero retire this year, Alomar's going to have a tough time getting 75% with those 3.

There's no doubt in my mind that Alomar is HOF worthy, but if the class is strong, he's not getting in 1st ballot.

[SPTO]

Re: Roberto Alomar Retires

No and I'm not sure Alomar is either.

Here's a few 2B's I'd put ahead of Alomar:

Nap Lajoie
Eddie Collins
Charlie Gehringer
Rod Carew
Ryne Sandberg
Joe Morgan (Possibly)

1. Carew was a great 2B but he was more of a slap hitter. He was basically Ichiro before Ichiro. Alomar had power in his game and was a good base stealer.

2. Ryne Sandberg looked good mainly because of the infield at Wrigley which was done in such a way as to make fielding a lot easier for the IFs. Alomar's prime years were on turf which takes a toll on the body and can take strange hops.

3. I'd definately put Morgan on the top with Alomar as I said earlier they're 1A and 1B in my books.

4. I can't really comment on the older guys but i'll take your word for it. Alomar and Morgan are the best modern day 2Bs ever.

This just goes to show that ranking players can be very subjective.

[SPTO]

Re: Roberto Alomar Retires

No and I'm not sure Alomar is either.

Here's a few 2B's I'd put ahead of Alomar:

Nap Lajoie
Eddie Collins
Charlie Gehringer
Rod Carew
Ryne Sandberg
Joe Morgan (Possibly)

1. Carew was a great 2B but he was more of a slap hitter. He was basically Ichiro before Ichiro. Alomar had power in his game and was a good base stealer.

2. Ryne Sandberg looked good mainly because of the infield at Wrigley which was done in such a way as to make fielding a lot easier for the IFs. Alomar's prime years were on turf which takes a toll on the body and can take strange hops.

3. I'd definately put Morgan on the top with Alomar as I said earlier they're 1A and 1B in my books.

4. I can't really comment on the older guys but i'll take your word for it. Alomar and Morgan are the best modern day 2Bs ever.

This just goes to show that ranking players can be very subjective.

[SportsTop]

Re: Roberto Alomar Retires

Not every player available for the HOF is considered at least top 5 in his position all time.

The criteria for first ballot HOF, at least in my opinion, is be one of the elite players to ever play the game.....not just your position. Great players at a given position (as is in Alomar's case) usually get elected on their subsequent years of eligibility.

[SportsTop]

Re: Roberto Alomar Retires

Not every player available for the HOF is considered at least top 5 in his position all time.

The criteria for first ballot HOF, at least in my opinion, is be one of the elite players to ever play the game.....not just your position. Great players at a given position (as is in Alomar's case) usually get elected on their subsequent years of eligibility.