2015 Atlanta Braves

[p_rushing]

Re: 2015 Atlanta Braves

Can we stop with the "future hall of famer" talk please. It's just not true. He tied for 58th in WAR this year. And his 4.0 WAR is up from the year before (102nd). He's a very good to great player, but calling him a future hall of famer is a GIANT stretch. He's not even an all-star right now. Statically, he was down to the 2nd best fielder in the league at his position, at best and doesn't hit.

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Agree. If he had a decent bat he would still be here. I think the Braves were hoping he would fix the problems, but that hasn't happened. I don't like what they got back, you can't judge unknown potential well, so hopefully it pays off.

Being the best definitely isn't going to get you into the HOF, you have to hit also. Braves had the best CF in the league for years in Andruw Jones and he also hit the ball OK, but he isn't going to make it in the HOF most likely.

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[TheMatrix31]

Re: 2015 Atlanta Braves

I don't care if he's a Hall of Famer or not. He's arguably the best defensive player in baseball and is 26 years old and we had control of him for like 5 more years for what amounts to be chump change in baseball terms.

**** this team and **** their prospects. Yeah let's hope they all pan out so we can inexplicably trade them again at some point for more prospects.

The entire purpose of a prospect is for them to pan out. Simmons did exactly that. Why would you trade someone who already achieved their stature as greatness for another shot in the dark? It's not like Simmons makes 150 million dollars or something, unlike those we'd have to pay if they pan out because even the most worthless people like Rick Porcello are making 20 million dollars a year now. And we all ****ing know this team with their ****ty *** TV deal won't be paying **** to anyone any time soon, at least as much as other teams. Gee, almost as if it would be wise to keep cost-controlled greatness around if they're already on your team.

I mean good grief.

[DonkeyJote]

Re: 2015 Atlanta Braves

Andrelton make $6 mil next year in a year where our wins an losses don't really matter. He makes $8 million in 2017, $11 million in 2018, $13 million in 2019, $15 million in 2020. He has 2 cheap year left, and then he gets expensive. That's a lot of money for a guy who isn't a top 50 player. We do have to operate like a mod market team, and trading him is that. It's looking ahead. Simmons was worth 1.7 wins more than Aybar in 2016. This gets us payroll flexibility in 2018 and beyond. And a potential shut down pitcher who is 22 and moving through the minors very quicky.

Simmons got that contract coming off a 7 war, 17 hr season, and in 2 seasons since he 7.3 war and 11 hr. At this point, he's honestly not playing at a level that deserves 5 years and $53 million. His defense has regressed (slightly - he's still top 2 at his position), and his offense has regressed a lot.

We could've held onto him, and the Uptons, and Heyward, and Kimbrel, etc., and continued to win 85 games a year and never really be serious contenders. Or you be patient, take a couple years, gear up, and try to be really good for a really long time.
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[TheMatrix31]

Re: 2015 Atlanta Braves

Colby Rasmus is gonna make 16 million dollars next year. I really don't give a **** what the Braves would have had to pay for Andrelton Simmons in the latter years of his contract.

Patient my ***. You keep great players when you have them and build around them. That's it. Period. Finito.

But whatever, have fun with your "what may be" prospect fetishization garbage. I've had enough.

Gonna be hilarious when the team tries to package a bunch of said prospects for a "proven star" again after Freeman and Simmons and Heyward and Upton and such are gone only to not re-sign that player because that player ends up wanting 200 million dollars over 10 years. As if they'd ever come close to giving out such a contract to a player. And of course on the off-chance any of these loser prospects actually pan out, they'll have to be paid too and they'll command ridiculous salaries far beyond 60 million over 5 years and they'll be shipped out or not re-signed either. And the beat will go on and on and on and on. "Sustained contention" lol. What a hilarious notion.

Clown show organization.

[DonkeyJote]

Re: 2015 Atlanta Braves

You say you don't care now, but when his contract becomes a burden, and he's blocking a good prospect? When we can't spend money on other positions because we're spending $15 million on a guy hitting 4 hr. This isn't the Simmons of 2013 that absolutely deserved that money. This guy is a good player, not a great one. And we may have gotten a great one in return.

You build around great players. Not good players.

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[TheMatrix31]

Re: 2015 Atlanta Braves

Have fun with your mays.

Chances are, by the time he's blocking that "good prospect" I'll be long gone as a Braves fan and likely a baseball fan. Or maybe they can trade that "good prospect" for a 30 year old Cuban guy again.

I've had enough of my sports teams pissing me off like this. It's really not worth it. There's no joy in this. None.

[KSUowls]

Re: 2015 Atlanta Braves

Can we stop with the "future hall of famer" talk please. It's just not true. He tied for 58th in WAR this year. And his 4.0 WAR is up from the year before (102nd). He's a very good to great player, but calling him a future hall of famer is a GIANT stretch. He's not even an all-star right now. Statically, he was down to the 2nd best fielder in the league at his position, at best and doesn't hit.

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Oh I'm sorry please forgive me. Wait, was was Ozzie Smith again?

Oh yeah!

Maybe he doesn't sustain it like Ozzie did to end up there, but so far eaely in he is this generations Ozzie.




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[KSUowls]

Re: 2015 Atlanta Braves

Being the best definitely isn't going to get you into the HOF, you have to hit also. Braves had the best CF in the league for years in Andruw Jones and he also hit the ball OK, but he isn't going to make it in the HOF most likely.

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I seem to remember a Cardinals shortstop who was not know for his bat.

Fair point about Andruw, but they are not entirely equivalent scenarios. The great center fielder's in the history of the game were good at both. Short stops are not held to the same dual standard.



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[KSUowls]

Re: 2015 Atlanta Braves

We could've held onto him, and the Uptons, and Heyward, and Kimbrel, etc., and continued to win 85 games a year and never really be serious contenders. Or you be patient, take a couple years, gear up, and try to be really good for a really long time.
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I absolutely bought into this line of thinking. I still think it is the right thing to do. The braves stopped doing it though. They have this half in half out mentality that we are going to build for the future but we are also going to try and be a semi competitive team. We don't have the luxury of trying to be both. This is why I didn't mind bowing up the previous team for a haul of prospects. Unless we can flip Aybar for something good then we gave up one of our only young answers for a single unproven but potential answer.

The comments I saw from the GM were sickening.
"You can make the argument that we will win more games in 2016 with Aybar".

True or not that is a philosophical problem. Raise of hand for anyone here who cares about winning 80 games in a season. Anyone? Didn't think so.

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[decga]

Re: 2015 Atlanta Braves

Andrelton make $6 mil next year in a year where our wins an losses don't really matter. He makes $8 million in 2017, $11 million in 2018, $13 million in 2019, $15 million in 2020. He has 2 cheap year left, and then he gets expensive. That's a lot of money for a guy who isn't a top 50 player. We do have to operate like a mod market team, and trading him is that. It's looking ahead. Simmons was worth 1.7 wins more than Aybar in 2016. This gets us payroll flexibility in 2018 and beyond. And a potential shut down pitcher who is 22 and moving through the minors very quicky.

Simmons got that contract coming off a 7 war, 17 hr season, and in 2 seasons since he 7.3 war and 11 hr. At this point, he's honestly not playing at a level that deserves 5 years and $53 million. His defense has regressed (slightly - he's still top 2 at his position), and his offense has regressed a lot.

We could've held onto him, and the Uptons, and Heyward, and Kimbrel, etc., and continued to win 85 games a year and never really be serious contenders. Or you be patient, take a couple years, gear up, and try to be really good for a really long time.
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Yep we could have did some things with a better manager with those players. Everybody is out! Fredi G is still here! Those guys couldn't hit. Those guys blew saves! LOL! SMDH!

[LowerWolf]

Re: 2015 Atlanta Braves

I've got no problem trading Simmons. I mentioned the possibility before the deadline and got shouted down. He's a great great defender but a mediocre bat, and that's not likely to change. If you had a chance to deal him to get some more offense to balance the team, I was OK with it.

Other than Freeman, Simmons was the best trade chip we had. And we used him to strengthen an area of strength. That's what I'm not happy about.

It just feels like our philosophy is trade all our assets for pitching prospects, throw them against the wall and see which ones stick. And I'm not real crazy about that philosophy.

[DonkeyJote]

Re: 2015 Atlanta Braves

Oh I'm sorry please forgive me. Wait, was was Ozzie Smith again?

Oh yeah!

Maybe he doesn't sustain it like Ozzie did to end up there, but so far eaely in he is this generations Ozzie.




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Ozzie is a hall of famer because of longevity and because he was voted in 14 years ago before advanced metrics became a big thing. He also began his career almost 38 years ago; it's a completely different game now. Ozzie also averaged 31 stolen bases a year, so he provided something else. He averaged 4.7 war through 37. He won 13 straight gold gloves and made 12 straight all star games. And if it wasn't for those long runs if awards, Ozzie isn't in. If he's on the ballot today instead of 2001, he's a long shot. Andrelton has zero all-star games and stopped his gold gloves streak at 2. Good player, not great, not even close to Hall of Fame.

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[DonkeyJote]

Re: 2015 Atlanta Braves

I absolutely bought into this line of thinking. I still think it is the right thing to do. The braves stopped doing it though. They have this half in half out mentality that we are going to build for the future but we are also going to try and be a semi competitive team. We don't have the luxury of trying to be both. This is why I didn't mind bowing up the previous team for a haul of prospects. Unless we can flip Aybar for something good then we gave up one of our only young answers for a single unproven but potential answer.

The comments I saw from the GM were sickening.
"You can make the argument that we will win more games in 2016 with Aybar".

True or not that is a philosophical problem. Raise of hand for anyone here who cares about winning 80 games in a season. Anyone? Didn't think so.

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I think a lot of people care about winning 80 games. I don't believe anyone in that front office honestly believes that, it's just a bad answer to try and appease angry fans. I don't see how we've gone "half in" here. The only guy left to trade is Freddie. The only move that wasn't for a young guy was Olivera, which his peak production is likely to come in 2017 and 18 as he adjusts to American baseball, and lines up with the new park. I don't think this team has a realistic shot at winning 80 at all.

Saw an article on ESPN saying we should trade Freddie and I agree. I think he's a guy who, while very good, isn't great. Only averages 21 hr, and 3.3 war and is set to make $20 million per starting next year. If he can consistently be 2013 Freddie, who went .319/.396/.501 and 5.7 war then he's absolutely worth it, but he hasn't done it. I think he's probably overrated at this point, and it'd be a good time to move him.

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[KSUowls]

Re: 2015 Atlanta Braves

I did not mean 80 literally. 70, 80, 85, there is no difference. The team isn't relevant.

Believe what you want about the Ozzie-Simmons comparison. Unlike Ozzie I can't look back on 15 years of data, I can only use what Simmons has been early on (I know how much you love WAR, Ozzie was at 9.8through his first 3 seasons. Simmons was 14.3(

The last 2 big trades now have not fit the strategy laid out early on. Olivera is still a 31 year old human being and now it looks like we won't even have a use for him in the 2-3 years of real production that you can expect out of the human body at his age. Wouldn't it have made more sense to trade young guys for other young guys?

Simmons was the best at what he does in baseball for the last 3 years and he's still young. That's not the type of player you only get one prospect out of. I guess we will see if they get anything out of Aybar...a 31 year old coming off his worst OPS season in 5 years and who will be a free agent in 11 months

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[KSUowls]

Re: 2015 Atlanta Braves

I do agree though. At this point trade freddie. Trade Shelby, trade Julio, and anyone else with value on the 2015 roster. This team is several years out from being competitive and there is no reason to hold on to current major league talent when you are not competing.

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